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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: SimpleMan on June 26, 2020, 05:59:36 PM

Title: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on June 26, 2020, 05:59:36 PM
I know the SSPX grants "Declarations of Nullity" (or rather, opinions regarding the nullity of marriages using pre-Vatican II norms), but do any other traditionalist bishops do this?  "Lack of form" would be pretty much a no-brainer, but "annulments" for any other reason --- is this a "thing" in traditional Catholicism?  And what does a traditional Catholic do, if they are divorced and want to be free to remarry?

Does "supplied jurisdiction" extend to being able to declare lack of form, or to find putatively valid marriages null and void?
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on June 26, 2020, 08:48:41 PM
Yes, Bishop Mark Pivaronus does. He did this to a marriage Father Kevin Vaillancourt presided over. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: St.Patrick on June 27, 2020, 04:34:37 AM
They should of course be able to do all that the pre vatican II church did.
They are the only true bishops left. Sedes can't be trusted. So they have all the powers necessary to keep the Church going.


An SSPX would not do it anymore, now that they have submitted to modernist Rome on marriages.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on June 27, 2020, 12:44:01 PM
Yes, Bishop Mark Pivaronus does. He did this to a marriage Father Kevin Vaillancourt presided over.
Just out of curiosity, was it a "lack of form" declaration or affidavit (i.e., a Catholic attempted marriage outside the Church that is ipso facto invalid, just in need of documentation and certification), or a true "annulment"?
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Yeti on June 27, 2020, 08:23:25 PM
Basically no. They apply the standards that were used before Vatican 2 for matrimony. If two (single) people get married in church and profess their vows to each other, they are married until death. Going in later and claiming you were ignorant/pressured/stupid/immature/didn't want children/incompatible didn't get you anywhere with Catholic bishops before Vatican 2, and it won't get you anywhere with Catholic sedevacantist priests or bishops now. And going in with an "annulment" from heretics given on any of the above grounds won't get you anywhere with them either. They'll just tell you you were sold a bill of goods by a bunch of heretics who don't believe in the sacrament of matrimony, and that in the eyes of God you are married until death. That "annulment" in your hands is as useless as an expired coupon for a carton of Eggo waffles.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Matto on June 27, 2020, 08:35:43 PM
Basically no.

Do you deny then the accusation in this thread that the Pivmeister gave an annulment to a couple married by the fellow traditionalist priest Kevin Vaillancourt? Do you know of the details of this case? Or are you just expressing your "wish" that sedevacantist bishops would not give annulments? There is the world as we wish it would be and then the world as it is. A world where even traditionalists priests, sedevacantist or SSPX or resistance are accused of doing bad things.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on June 27, 2020, 09:08:22 PM
I actually heard this from Father Kevin Vaillancourt.  Secondly, marriage was a former CMRI brother and he had two sons from this first marriage and married a young girl with the brother more than almost twice his age.  The new spouse was also a babysitter for the man and his wife.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: poche on June 27, 2020, 11:01:50 PM
Just out of curiosity, was it a "lack of form" declaration or affidavit (i.e., a Catholic attempted marriage outside the Church that is ipso facto invalid, just in need of documentation and certification), or a true "annulment"?
The Holy See has given them authority in some matters. It could give them authority in certain matters of annulments. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on June 27, 2020, 11:18:32 PM
The Holy See has given them authority in some matters. It could give them authority in certain matters of annulments.
That might be true of the SSPX, but I was thinking more of independent non-sedevacantist bishops (including SSPX Resistance), as well as bishops who are sedevacantist.  Neither has been given any authority by the Holy See.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: 2Vermont on June 28, 2020, 07:57:46 AM
Do you deny then the accusation in this thread that the Pivmeister gave an annulment to a couple married by the fellow traditionalist priest Kevin Vaillancourt? Do you know of the details of this case? Or are you just expressing your "wish" that sedevacantist bishops would not give annulments? There is the world as we wish it would be and then the world as it is. A world where even traditionalists priests, sedevacantist or SSPX or resistance are accused of doing bad things.
Pivmeister Matto?  Also, given Aristotl has made it quite clear in other posts that he believes the Thuc line to be invalid, I would question any of his allegations against any of them.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Yeti on June 28, 2020, 02:47:24 PM
Fr. Vaillancourt has been in terrible health for years, and it is commonly known that his ailments have had an effect on his mind. I wouldn't take a lot of what he says all that seriously without corroboration from someone else.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: 2Vermont on June 28, 2020, 05:20:47 PM
This doesn't sound like a man who would grant an annulment:

http://www.cmri.org/97prog9-1.htm (http://www.cmri.org/97prog9-1.htm)

Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Ladislaus on June 28, 2020, 06:08:45 PM
This doesn't sound like a man who would grant an annulment:

http://www.cmri.org/97prog9-1.htm (http://www.cmri.org/97prog9-1.htm)

Well, he can't really "grant" anything.  As with a couple other sedevacantists I knew, they give their opinion on the matter.  There are some clear-cut cases, e.g. where a person baptized Catholic "married" before a justice of the peace, or else "married" someone who had already been married.  They limit themselves to these clear-cut cases and would never venture into the realm of the difficult cases which would traditionally have required multi-year investigations and the calling of witnesses.  Not only do they not have the time, but they do not have the training nor the authority to be able to adjudicate these cases.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on June 28, 2020, 07:49:57 PM
Well, he can't really "grant" anything.  As with a couple other sedevacantists I knew, they give their opinion on the matter.  There are some clear-cut cases, e.g. where a person baptized Catholic "married" before a justice of the peace, or else "married" someone who had already been married.  They limit themselves to these clear-cut cases and would never venture into the realm of the difficult cases which would traditionally have required multi-year investigations and the calling of witnesses.  Not only do they not have the time, but they do not have the training nor the authority to be able to adjudicate these cases.
So are you saying that the only marriage cases traditionalist bishops render judgment upon, are those that involve lack/defect of form?

That is really more an administrative matter than anything else.  It doesn't require any assessment of the marriage other than "did they observe canonical form and/or did they attempt to marry a person whom they were not free to marry?".
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Ladislaus on June 28, 2020, 08:22:47 PM
So are you saying that the only marriage cases traditionalist bishops render judgment upon, are those that involve lack/defect of form?

That is really more an administrative matter than anything else.  It doesn't require any assessment of the marriage other than "did they observe canonical form and/or did they attempt to marry a person whom they were not free to marry?".

That's what a couple of them have told me.  And they basically tell the people inquiring that it is their opinion or judgment.  They have no authority or adequate training to actually grant anything akin to a formal annulment.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Endeavor on June 29, 2020, 03:24:01 PM
One big name safe bishop is a high-school drop out. 
They have the bare minimum of formal education forget seminary training. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 01, 2020, 10:05:40 AM
I was not aware of that seems rather interesting may I ask who? is the bishop you are referring to?
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 01, 2020, 10:13:30 AM
Fr. Vaillancourt has been in terrible health for years, and it is commonly known that his ailments have had an effect on his mind. I wouldn't take a lot of what he says all that seriously without corroboration from someone else.
Say what you will about me but ask others and they will tell you about the religious brother from CMRI that left and got married by Father Kevin Vaillancourt and had two kids the persons initials are RW. I'm willing to say the name if you want. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Endeavor on July 01, 2020, 10:29:47 AM
Aristotl(e), do you attend the services of the "pure bishop? I wonder because you seem to have knowledge about him.

Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: poche on July 01, 2020, 11:51:25 PM
Say what you will about me but ask others and they will tell you about the religious brother from CMRI that left and got married by Father Kevin Vaillancourt and had two kids the persons initials are RW. I'm willing to say the name if you want.
Why waste your time? 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: TKGS on July 02, 2020, 08:29:44 PM
Yes, Bishop Mark Pivaronus does. He did this to a marriage Father Kevin Vaillancourt presided over.
I believe this to be an outright lie.  Clearly, Aristotl is an anti-Christ.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Nadir on July 02, 2020, 09:26:33 PM
I believe this to be an outright lie.  Clearly, Aristotl is an anti-Christ.
He is also practically illiterate, as shown here:

I was not aware of that seems rather interesting may I ask who? is the bishop you are referring to?
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 02, 2020, 10:31:10 PM
Aristotl(e), do you attend the services of the "pure bishop? I wonder because you seem to have knowledge about him.
I do when I'm in Italy. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 02, 2020, 10:39:50 PM
I believe this to be an outright lie.  Clearly, Aristotl is an anti-Christ.
I have been called many things in my lifetime but anti-christ has never been one of them. If you pass judgment so easily then God help us all.  I am a ROMAN CATHOLIC I hold true to everything taught by the Church and her sovereign pontiffs from Peter to Pope Pius XII. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Meg on July 03, 2020, 05:54:45 AM
I have been called many things in my lifetime but anti-christ has never been one of them. If you pass judgment so easily then God help us all.  I am a ROMAN CATHOLIC I hold true to everything taught by the Church and her sovereign pontiffs from Peter to Pope Pius XII.

If you say anything against the sedes on this forum, they will come after you with a vegeance. They are in control here.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: TKGS on July 03, 2020, 06:30:27 PM
I have been called many things in my lifetime but anti-christ has never been one of them. If you pass judgment so easily then God help us all.  I am a ROMAN CATHOLIC I hold true to everything taught by the Church and her sovereign pontiffs from Peter to Pope Pius XII.
Holding everything taught by the Catholic Church is laudable.  Passing on rumors one hears to calumniate a holy bishop on a public forum is not practicing what you say you believe.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 14, 2020, 12:40:23 PM
This is not a rumor it is a FACT. Do you belong to the CMRI group in Spokane WA? If not you are not aware of what happens there. I heard it from the wife. So don't attack me.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: TKGS on July 14, 2020, 02:20:09 PM
So which is it?  First you said:
I actually heard this from Father Kevin Vaillancourt.

And now you say:
I heard it from the wife.

Frankly, I don't believe you.  When a person's testimony abruptly changes, it is a definite sign that...the person forgot the lie he told the first time.



Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 14, 2020, 04:22:11 PM
I know the SSPX grants "Declarations of Nullity" (or rather, opinions regarding the nullity of marriages using pre-Vatican II norms), but do any other traditionalist bishops do this?  "Lack of form" would be pretty much a no-brainer, but "annulments" for any other reason --- is this a "thing" in traditional Catholicism?  And what does a traditional Catholic do, if they are divorced and want to be free to remarry?

Does "supplied jurisdiction" extend to being able to declare lack of form, or to find putatively valid marriages null and void?
I was told the SSPX, or any bishop or priest, can only give an opinion regarding nullity.  They cannot grant a declaration of nullity.  The SSPX violates canon law in doing so.
I was told that if a priest or bishop evaluates a case and he is willing to remarry someone, it is on his soul as to whether or he should have done such.  
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 14, 2020, 05:57:54 PM
So which is it?  First you said:
I actually heard this from Father Kevin Vaillancourt.

And now you say:
I heard it from the wife.

Frankly, I don't believe you.  When a person's testimony abruptly changes, it is a definite sign that...the person forgot the lie he told the first time.
Again I originally heard this from Father Vaillancourt when you and others started questioning this I went to the current wife Misty and she said Bishop Pivaronus gave an annulment. Take it up with Bob's wife so let it go. Things are different in Spokane if you are not from Mount Saint Michael then you have no idea of what goes on there.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 14, 2020, 06:07:27 PM
I was told the SSPX, or any bishop or priest, can only give an opinion regarding nullity.  They cannot grant a declaration of nullity.  The SSPX violates canon law in doing so.
I was told that if a priest or bishop evaluates a case and he is willing to remarry someone, it is on his soul as to whether or he should have done such.  
I'm not clear what you are saying.  No bishop can grant a declaration of nullity?  I thought that's precisely what diocesan bishops did, though with their tribunal "doing all the work" and making the decision as to whether the marriage is invalid or not.  Or are you referring only to SSPX bishops?

Likewise, when you say "evaluates a case and... is willing to remarry someone", do you mean an SSPX priest or bishop being told the facts of the matter regarding the marriage, ascertaining that it was invalid, and then "remarrying" one of the spouses to another partner?  Or are you referring to priests and bishops in general?  Traditional priests and bishops in general?

Prior to Vatican II, annulments were very rare, and it's not something the average priest (or possibly even bishop) would have ever encountered.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 15, 2020, 12:19:03 PM
I'm not clear what you are saying.  No bishop can grant a declaration of nullity?  I thought that's precisely what diocesan bishops did, though with their tribunal "doing all the work" and making the decision as to whether the marriage is invalid or not.  Or are you referring only to SSPX bishops?

Likewise, when you say "evaluates a case and... is willing to remarry someone", do you mean an SSPX priest or bishop being told the facts of the matter regarding the marriage, ascertaining that it was invalid, and then "remarrying" one of the spouses to another partner?  Or are you referring to priests and bishops in general?  Traditional priests and bishops in general?

Prior to Vatican II, annulments were very rare, and it's not something the average priest (or possibly even bishop) would have ever encountered.

Yes, I meant I was told that no traditional bishop can grant an annulment.  Also, only specific, not all, diocesan bishops can grant annulment.

No traditional bishop, including the sspx bishops, are diocesan.  They have no authority in canon law to have a marriage tribunal or to decide annulments.

However, due to the problems associated with the novus ordo, some traditional non-sspx priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to decide whether or not they will re-marry someone (ipso facto granting an "annulment" by taking the burden onto themselves).

It is not an area many traditional priests or bishops will enter, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 16, 2020, 12:06:20 AM
The one that I mention a few times is the first one I heard about in years. Back in the days of Bishop Musey, there were a few that he looked at. Where a man claimed he was forced to marry and that was granted an annulment. The only problem I had was the same man did this with another marriage. So I question that one.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: St.Patrick on July 16, 2020, 12:03:29 PM
That might be true of the SSPX, but I was thinking more of independent non-sedevacantist bishops (including SSPX Resistance), as well as bishops who are sedevacantist.  Neither has been given any authority by the Holy See.
the crises in the Church overrides that.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: St.Patrick on July 16, 2020, 12:07:06 PM
I was told the SSPX, or any bishop or priest, can only give an opinion regarding nullity.  They cannot grant a declaration of nullity.  The SSPX violates canon law in doing so.
I was told that if a priest or bishop evaluates a case and he is willing to remarry someone, it is on his soul as to whether or he should have done such.  
Canon law is violated totally by the crisis in the Church, since it's final end is the salvation of souls.
Therefore, it is irrelevant to make a distinction between a declaration and an opinion. You are seeking formality for formality's sake. If a marriage never was, it never was. That's what annulment is.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 16, 2020, 12:19:28 PM
Quote
Yes, I meant I was told that no traditional bishop can grant an annulment.  Also, only specific, not all, diocesan bishops can grant annulment.

No traditional bishop, including the sspx bishops, are diocesan.  They have no authority in canon law to have a marriage tribunal or to decide annulments.
Agree.
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Quote
However, due to the problems associated with the novus ordo, some traditional non-sspx priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to decide whether or not they will re-marry someone (ipso facto granting an "annulment" by taking the burden onto themselves).
The only cases that are clear cut is if the "first marriage" is with a convert/non-baptized person.  In that case, no sacramental marriage existed, so a catholic marriage can happen.  All other cases are pretty hairy.
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Quote
Canon law is violated totally by the crisis in the Church, since it's final end is the salvation of souls.
Some parts of Canon Law are violated, but not all.
.
Quote
Therefore, it is irrelevant to make a distinction between a declaration and an opinion.
No, it's an important distinction.  It's the difference between a judge ruling on a matter vs 100 lawyers giving you an OPINION on how the judge should rule.
.
Quote
If a marriage never was, it never was. That's what annulment is.
And in the complex cases involving 2 baptized persons, the annulment process is important to get a decision from an authority.  The research/process is just as important as the ruling.  Trad clerics aren't trained in this area, so theirs is an opinion only, not a final ruling.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 16, 2020, 12:36:34 PM
The only cases that are clear cut is if the "first marriage" is with a convert/non-baptized person.  In that case, no sacramental marriage existed, so a catholic marriage can happen.  All other cases are pretty hairy.
How does being a convert enter into it?

Cases where a Catholic did not follow canonical form (and was not dispensed from it), commonly referred to as "marrying outside the Church", are pretty clear-cut.  The only thing that is missing, is the Church having all the documentation that things happened that way, saying "okay, it's proven, Romeo married Juliet outside of canonical form, they weren't dispensed, nobody ever got a sanatio in radice, therefore there was never a marriage".  Even if Romeo and Juliet were both Catholic, and sought out a justice of the peace, there would still be no valid marriage.  If a non-diocesan traditionalist bishop assembled the facts in front of him, and had all relevant facts proven, then it's hard to see a problem with that.

The more subjective cases (too immature, had a psychological problem, couldn't balance a checkbook, didn't get along with the neighbors, what have you) wouldn't be an issue, because prior to V2, those weren't grounds for annulment.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: In Principio on July 16, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
How does being a convert enter into it?

Cases where a Catholic did not follow canonical form (and was not dispensed from it), commonly referred to as "marrying outside the Church", are pretty clear-cut.  The only thing that is missing, is the Church having all the documentation that things happened that way, saying "okay, it's proven, Romeo married Juliet outside of canonical form, they weren't dispensed, nobody ever got a sanatio in radice, therefore there was never a marriage".  Even if Romeo and Juliet were both Catholic, and sought out a justice of the peace, there would still be no valid marriage.  If a non-diocesan traditionalist bishop assembled the facts in front of him, and had all relevant facts proven, then it's hard to see a problem with that.

The more subjective cases (too immature, had a psychological problem, couldn't balance a checkbook, didn't get along with the neighbors, what have you) wouldn't be an issue, because prior to V2, those weren't grounds for annulment.
Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 16, 2020, 05:10:34 PM
Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
I never knew that.  I have a Woywod/Smith commentary and will check it out.  Thanks.

So is this to say that, if a pastor or ordinary cannot be seen for a month, the dispensation from canonical form, and permission for a Catholic to marry a baptized non-Catholic, basically "issues itself"?

My next question would be "why in the heck is it so important for people to be able to marry within the space of a month?".  Our Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all, the fact that they would like to marry notwithstanding --- that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate.  Life doesn't always play out on our preferred terms.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 16, 2020, 05:39:28 PM
the crises in the Church overrides that.
Be careful using "the crisis in the Church" too often.
Some, like Fr. Pfeiffer, use it to create a cult.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 16, 2020, 05:42:03 PM
Canon law is violated totally by the crisis in the Church,
Wrong.


"Therefore, it is irrelevant to make a distinction between a declaration and an opinion. You are seeking formality for formality's sake. If a marriage never was, it never was. That's what annulment is."

Which is why I said "However, due to the problems associated with the novus ordo, some traditional non-sspx priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to decide whether or not they will re-marry someone (ipso facto granting an "annulment" by taking the burden onto themselves).

It is not an area many traditional priests or bishops will enter, for obvious reasons."
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 16, 2020, 05:46:35 PM
Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
This is whwhat I was taught, too.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Struthio on July 16, 2020, 05:48:13 PM
Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all, the fact that they would like to marry notwithstanding --- that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate.  Life doesn't always play out on our preferred terms.

Ok. But then there are others who look real good and to them a month appears like eternity.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 16, 2020, 05:54:40 PM
The more subjective cases (too immature, had a psychological problem, couldn't balance a checkbook, didn't get along with the neighbors, what have you) wouldn't be an issue, because prior to V2, those weren't grounds for annulment.
Right.
I was taught the other major ground is deceit of an important nature before marriage.  For instance, if one person had been married before, is an alcoholic and/or a drug addict, had a history of physical abuse or mental illness, and kept it from the other party before marriage.  These must be proven and verified, but I was taught they are all pre-Vatican 2 annulment grounds.
Perhaps Pax can corroborate. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 16, 2020, 10:04:19 PM
Ok. But then there are others who look real good and to them a month appears like eternity.
Not clear on what you mean by this.  Are you referring to women who are attractive, who have found someone to marry, and don't want to wait a month?

This thumb and index finger of mine rubbing together are me playing a threnody of pity and sorrow on the world's smallest violin.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2020, 06:47:28 AM
Quote
How does being a convert enter into it?
I was trying to highlight the case of a catholic marrying a non-Catholic outside of the Church.  In that case, there is no sacramental marriage, though there is a natural law marriage.  If the non-Catholic converts, then they would be obligated to get it blessed by the Church.
.
If you have 2 non-catholics get a natural marriage, but one converts to the Faith, while the other is anti-Catholic and harsh towards the Faith, the convert could get "re-married" to a catholic.  It's called the Pauline Privilege, as it apparently was supported by St Paul, during the early days.  My explanation is simplistic, but this is what I've been told.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Aristotl on July 17, 2020, 06:52:59 AM
This is whwhat I was taught, too.
Me too and that was 1965.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2020, 06:55:31 AM
Quote
Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.
Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
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Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2020, 07:00:54 AM
Quote
So is this to say that, if a pastor or ordinary cannot be seen for a month, the dispensation from canonical form, and permission for a Catholic to marry a baptized non-Catholic, basically "issues itself"?
I've never heard this.  I've only heard that a CATHOLIC COUPLE could marry themselves, if after 30 days a suitable pastor/ordinary cannot be found.  This is the canon law that Trads use to have supplied jurisdiction for marriages, as there aren't any orthodox pastors/ordinaries in existence.
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I don't think the dispensation to marry a non-Catholic is given out this freely, especially in the 1917 code.  (I searched your code reference and couldn't find it).  There's also the other distinction to make between a BAPTIZED non-Catholic (who is technically an apostate catholic), and an unbaptized non-Catholic.  Different rules for different situations.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2020, 07:05:17 AM
Quote
These must be proven and verified, but I was taught they are all pre-Vatican 2 annulment grounds.
Perhaps Pax can corroborate.
I'm not an expert on this area at all, but it would stand to reason that if a person lied about a grave matter/circumstance, that it would be grounds for an annulment.  Mental issues, extreme violence, alcoholism/drug addiction...all these would make one question the ability of the person to fulfill the marriage duties, so hiding such personality defects would be a potential contractual impairment. 
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 17, 2020, 08:12:54 AM
Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
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Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).
I don't mean to question your traditionalist bona fides, but some of this just doesn't sound right --- "valid from a human promise aspect", "God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows" --- God does not bless people for sin.  It's not "slightly better than cohabitating", it is cohabitating.

Here is how I have always understood it:

* Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
* Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
* Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)

If any of this is incorrect, please show me how.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 17, 2020, 10:14:08 AM
Quote
* Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
* Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid
Agree so far.
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Quote
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
Assuming a 'non-Catholic christian' = baptized?  If so, it would be a valid marriage, but can't be a sacrament because the non-Catholic isn't in the state of grace, being (essentially) an apostate catholic.  The Church can bless a marriage as valid, even if the marriage isn't sacramental.  That's my understanding.  This is why you have to get permission for mixed marriages...because the Church recognizes the loss of grace that such a marriage has, so She wants to discourage it from being normal.
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Quote
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
If by 'canonical form' you mean marriage by a priest/bishop, then I agree.
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Quote
* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
It would be a valid, natural marriage.  Sacramental marriages can only occur when 2 baptized, practicing Catholics, in the state of grace, get married in the Church.
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Quote
* Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental
Agree.
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Quote
* Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)
Agree.
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Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 17, 2020, 06:51:00 PM
Quote
Quote
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
Assuming a 'non-Catholic christian' = baptized?  If so, it would be a valid marriage, but can't be a sacrament because the non-Catholic isn't in the state of grace, being (essentially) an apostate catholic.  The Church can bless a marriage as valid, even if the marriage isn't sacramental.  That's my understanding.  This is why you have to get permission for mixed marriages...because the Church recognizes the loss of grace that such a marriage has, so She wants to discourage it from being normal.

Never heard this before.  I hate to be this way, but do you have a source?  I didn't know we made judgments about non-Catholic Christians being in the state of grace or not.  Curiously enough, when I first became a Catholic, I just took it for granted that this was why non-Catholic Christians couldn't receive communion --- we think they're all in mortal sin (at least to objective outward appearances).  Was I on the right track (at least from a traditionalist understanding)?

Quote
Quote
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
If by 'canonical form' you mean marriage by a priest/bishop, then I agree.

I am referring to following the procedures prescribed by the Church for a Catholic getting married.

Quote
Quote
* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
It would be a valid, natural marriage.  Sacramental marriages can only occur when 2 baptized, practicing Catholics, in the state of grace, get married in the Church.

Again, see above.  I didn't know we ever made such judgments, even back in pre-V2 days.  (I know the post-V2 regime sure-as-shootin' doesn't make a judgment like that, perish the thought, horrors!)
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Struthio on July 17, 2020, 10:11:21 PM
Not clear on what you mean by this.  Are you referring to women who are attractive, who have found someone to marry, and don't want to wait a month?

Yes, sure. But not only women. Men too.

You were asking

Quote from: SimpleMan
why in the heck is it so important for people to be able to marry within the space of a month?

and I was commenting on your remark

Quote from: SimpleMan
that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate

You said that in order to suggest that some people should wait long or not marry at all:

Quote from: SimpleMan
Our Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all

True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 17, 2020, 11:35:54 PM
True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
Fair enough.  I suppose I just don't understand why the Church has a law allowing people to marry within a month, if they are otherwise going to be kept waiting through no fault of their own, when other people have to wait a long time to marry, possibly even half a lifetime, possibly never at all, through no fault of their own?  Why not say "you'll get married when we can get to it, nobody has to get married, if it is difficult for you to wait until we can accommodate you, then just consider that this is your cross to bear in the here and now, many people have it far worse".

But at the end of the day, the Church's law is what it is.  Not to make a mountain of a molehill, it just seems like kind of a double standard.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 18, 2020, 12:04:20 AM

True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
If Church Law provide that it's possible to marry within a month, then why does the sspx not marry with less than a 3 month engagement?  They insist that the bans be read that long from the pulpit, and also that the couple rdceive marriage "instruction" from the marrying priest.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 18, 2020, 08:46:04 AM
Quote
I suppose I just don't understand why the Church has a law allowing people to marry within a month
I don’t think it’s that simple.  I looked up the canons that Principio mentioned and they had nothing to do with any month time period.  So we would all need to read the actual code in context to get more details.
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I could see the only exception of 1 month being applicable to the following scenarios:  1) the couple lives in an anti-catholic country and normal, diocesan churches don’t exist, or are in hiding for persecution, or are spread out and priests aren’t available often (China, Middle East).  2) same issues as above due to war, or other disasters, 3) the couple is on some remote island or mountain place where the church/priest is not close (ie in the Bible Belt), and maybe the couple can’t travel due to family sickness or some other reason.  So they can get married, to avoid the occasion of sin, and then find a priest to get blessed later. 
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In all other cases, the couple is obligated to present themselves before a diocesan priest (or Trad priest) and the normal preparations, classes and such are required.  The only reason the priest/Church makes a couple wait is so She/priest can provide classes and to be a witness that the couple is aware of the sacramental obligations and there is no impediment.  But in crisis situations, the couple vowing before God suffices.  
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 18, 2020, 11:05:55 AM
I don’t think it’s that simple.  I looked up the canons that Principio mentioned and they had nothing to do with any month time period.  So we would all need to read the actual code in context to get more details.
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I could see the only exception of 1 month being applicable to the following scenarios:  1) the couple lives in an anti-catholic country and normal, diocesan churches don’t exist, or are in hiding for persecution, or are spread out and priests aren’t available often (China, Middle East).  2) same issues as above due to war, or other disasters, 3) the couple is on some remote island or mountain place where the church/priest is not close (ie in the Bible Belt), and maybe the couple can’t travel due to family sickness or some other reason.  So they can get married, to avoid the occasion of sin, and then find a priest to get blessed later.
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In all other cases, the couple is obligated to present themselves before a diocesan priest (or Trad priest) and the normal preparations, classes and such are required.  The only reason the priest/Church makes a couple wait is so She/priest can provide classes and to be a witness that the couple is aware of the sacramental obligations and there is no impediment.  But in crisis situations, the couple vowing before God suffices.  
Even if it does exist in Canon Law, "the crisis in the Church" means we throw out canon law!  🙄 (tongue in cheek)
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 18, 2020, 11:12:33 AM
That’s retarded logic.  No one has the authority to disregard canon law, if they want to save their soul.  That’s why Trad clerics abide by the 1917 code 99% of that time.  There’s certain cases where it doesn’t apply but most codes are still applicable.  
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 18, 2020, 11:23:04 AM
That’s retarded logic.  No one has the authority to disregard canon law, if they want to save their soul.  That’s why Trad clerics abide by the 1917 code 99% of that time.  There’s certain cases where it doesn’t apply but most codes are still applicable.  
I was being facetious.
The "crisis in the church" has been used on this website to approve all sorts of illegalities.
Fr. Pfeiffer has thrown out canon law, and even some basic catechism for that matter.
B. Williamson has ignored canon law regarding pervert priests.
The phrase is used far to liberally among resistance and independent groups.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: poche on July 18, 2020, 11:02:28 PM
I was trying to highlight the case of a catholic marrying a non-Catholic outside of the Church.  In that case, there is no sacramental marriage, though there is a natural law marriage.  If the non-Catholic converts, then they would be obligated to get it blessed by the Church.
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If you have 2 non-catholics get a natural marriage, but one converts to the Faith, while the other is anti-Catholic and harsh towards the Faith, the convert could get "re-married" to a catholic.  It's called the Pauline Privilege, as it apparently was supported by St Paul, during the early days.  My explanation is simplistic, but this is what I've been told.
The Pauline privilege would only apply to non baptized persons. If the non Catholic was validly baptized and still hostile to the Catholic parties conversion then the Pauline privilege would not apply.   
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 20, 2020, 08:07:36 AM
Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
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Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).D
This is what I was taught, too.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 20, 2020, 08:09:15 AM
I've never heard this.  I've only heard that a CATHOLIC COUPLE could marry themselves, if after 30 days a suitable pastor/ordinary cannot be found.  This is the canon law that Trads use to have supplied jurisdiction for marriages, as there aren't any orthodox pastors/ordinaries in existence.
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I have never heard this before.
Interesting.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 20, 2020, 08:28:54 AM
I don't mean to question your traditionalist bona fides, but some of this just doesn't sound right --- "valid from a human promise aspect", "God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows" --- God does not bless people for sin.  It's not "slightly better than cohabitating", it is cohabitating.

Here is how I have always understood it:
This is what I was taught:
* Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage. Correct
* Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid I was taught this is a valid sacramental marriage, but it receives no blessing from the Church. It is not advised.
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage incorrect.  The sacrament passes from the catholic  woman to rhe catholic man and vice versa.  It cannot be recrived any other way.  So in this instance, in order to have correct canonical form a dispensation would have had to have been given by the Church.  The marriage would be blessed by the Church but no sacrament would be involved.
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid correct
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental same as above
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid correct
* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage incorrect
* Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental correct
* Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)  not sure on this one.

If any of this is incorrect, please show me how.
From what I was taught, basically:

2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved.

If a dispensation is granted the one Catholic to a mixed marriage, he can receive a blessing for his marriage and the Church recognizes it as valid.

All other options involving a Catholic are not valid within the Church.

Marriages of non-Catholics are valid.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on July 20, 2020, 09:39:56 AM
From what I was taught, basically:

2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved. Then the Church must have changed her teaching (or possibly just discipline, or both), as I have always understood that when Catholics marry baptized non-Catholics with canonical form and dispensation/permission, a valid sacrament is confected.  I don't doubt, as you put it, that you were taught this, but just for my own edification, I'm going to check out Woywod/Smith so I will more fully understand.  This runs entirely counter to what I have always understood.  I fully recognize that it is possible to "understand wrong", even for many decades --- I realize many people are resistant to change what they have "always thought", but I'm not one of them.  Truth is truth regardless.

If a dispensation is granted the one Catholic to a mixed marriage, he can receive a blessing for his marriage and the Church recognizes it as valid.  Valid natural marriage, but even if it is between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic, not sacramental?

All other options involving a Catholic are not valid within the Church.

Marriages of non-Catholics are valid. Are you saying, then, that the marriage of two baptized non-Catholics is only a valid natural marriage, not sacramental?  And what about the Orthodox?
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Venantius0518 on July 20, 2020, 11:56:05 AM
2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved because only baptized Catholics can receive sacraments of the Catholic Church.  

The Baltimore Catechism distinguishes between protestants and Christians (i.e., Catholics) in Q571.

Baltimore catechism:
- Q1055 "The sacrament of Matrimony is the sacrament which unites a Christian man and woman in lawful marriage."
- Q1011 "A Christian man and woman cannot be united in lawful marriage in any other way than by the sacrament of matrimony, because Christ raised marriage to the dignity of a sacrament."
- Q1015 "That the Church may grant dispensations from the impediments to marriage or from other laws, there must be a good and urgent reason for granting such dispendsations.  The Church does not grant dispensations without cause and merely to satisfy the wishes of those who ask for them."

Precept of the Church:
"Not to marry persons who are not Catholic, nor related to us within the third degree of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriages at forbidden times."

Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: poche on July 20, 2020, 10:47:10 PM
I have never heard this before.
Interesting.
There was an incident in the Notre Dame archives where it was declared that a couple who had made their vows in private were validly married due to the fact that the area (Ohio region) was an area where the decrees of the Council of Trent were not promulgated.
The Vatican also decreed that the marriage of James Healy's parents were valid and legitimate, the place of the marriage (Georgia) having no access to a priest who could officiate at the marriage.   
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 20, 2020, 11:33:29 PM
Quote
Are you saying, then, that the marriage of two baptized non-Catholics is only a valid natural marriage, not sacramental?
Right.  Any non-catholic, even if baptized, can’t receive a sacrament because they aren’t/won’t submit to the authority of the Church/pope.  So they can’t have the benefits/graces of the sacrament.  How could they? 
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This also applies if a catholic marries a non-catholic (even if both are baptized).  A sacrament requires BOTH persons to submit to church authority.  If there is a reason/approval for a mixed-marriage, then the couple can receive certain church blessings but they don’t/won’t have the full-time sacramental graces for the rest of their lives.  
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This is why mixed-marriages have been forbidden save for extreme circumstances.  In the US it’s much more common for mixed marriages, because we're a Protestant country, but in catholic counties it’s much more unique (pre V2).  
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: In Principio on July 21, 2020, 01:32:38 PM
Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
Here are some sources with regard to my post:


Canon Law Digest, Vol.III. T. Lincoln Bouscaren, S.J. (1954), p.454: 
Quote
   Mixed Marriage Before Protestant Minister Valid If Conditions of Canon 1098 for Marriage Before Witnesses Only Are Verified (S. C. Sacr., 4 March, 1925) Private.
  The following rescript was received by the Bishop of Pinsk in reply to a question concerning mixed marriages.
  Reply. If all the conditions which are required by canon 1098 for the validity of marriages before witnesses only are verified, the circumstance that such marriages were blessed in a non-Catholic church is an argument, not against validity, but against licitness.
  (Private); S. C. Sacr., 4 March, 1925. Reported by Dalpiaz in Apollinaris, Vol. 10, 1937, p. 277. See also Nevin in The Australasian Catholic Record, Vol. 19, 1942, p. 96.


A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, Vol.I. Stanislaus Woywod, O.F.M. (1948), pp.779-780:
Quote
It need scarcely be remarked here that, when the parties are entitled to contract marriage without the presence of the priest, they are justified in going to a justice of the peace, or any other official of the government who is entitled to witness the marriages, so that their marriage may have the recognition of the civil law. They can also marry before a non-Catholic minister, not as a minister of religion but as an official entitled by civil law to witness marriages; they must not allow him to use any religious ceremony, as may be seen from Canon 1063.



The Jurist. “The History and Application of Canon 1098.” John De Reeper, M.H.F. (1954), p.176: 
Quote
According to canon 1060 the impediment of mixed religion is an ‘impedimentum prohibens’ which sub gravi forbids the marriage between a Catholic and a baptized nonCatholic, but does not make it invalid. Moreover, it is stipulated in canon 1061 that, before a dispensation from this impediment can be given, the ‘cautiones’ must first be given, whereby the non-Catholic promises to avoid all that might lead to a weakening of the faith of the Catholic party, while both the Catholic and non-Catholic party promise to see to the baptism and Catholic upbringing of the children of their marriage. The ‘cautiones’ are required ad validitatem for the dispensation, even in danger of death. Hence, no dispensation from the impediment is possible without the ‘cautiones’. And in the case where no dispensation from the impediment of mixed religion was obtained, the marriage is graviter illicitum, but all the same validum since it is a question of an impedimentum prohibens. If they contracted a marriage without the ‘cautiones’ being given either implicite or explicite, they are validly married without dispensation or suspension from the impediment, and the Catholic party is punishable according to canon 2375, ipso facto excluded from all legitimate ecclesiastical acts and from the sacramentals. The latae sententiae penalty of exclusion from legitimate ecclesiastical acts is vindicative and supposes full knowledge and deliberation, since canon 2375 uses the term ‘ausi fuerint’. Hence ignorance even crass or supine, fear, even light, and any cause which lessens imputability excuses from the penalty (canon 2229, par 1, 2). But the Ordinary can dispense from these penalties. However, as we saw already, the marriage is valid though punishable because of the absence of ‘cautiones’.



The Extraordinary Form of Marriage According to Canon 1098. Edward Fus, J.C.D (1954), p.133:
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It is a gratuitous assumption to say that the witnesses mentioned in Canon 1098 have to be privatae personae. To state that Canon 1094 excludes civil officials and non-Catholic ministers and that therefore they are to be excluded in Canon 1098 does not quite follow. A nonCatholic minister or a civil official, qua talis, cannot take part in a Catholic ceremony in his official capacity. They are not excluded by law from acting as ordinary witnesses in the ordinary form of marriage. In marriages contracted according to the extraordinary form, at least as far as validity is concerned, there is nothing in the law that excludes them from acting in their official capacity. The law disregards their official capacity and takes cognizance merely of the exchange of matrimonial consent in the presence of two witnesses. As for the argument that a non-Catholic ceremony was excluded by the legislator because of the divine law prohibiting participation in a non-Catholic religious service, one may say that such was not the finis legis of the legislator in framing this canon. Non-Catholic ceremonies are still forbidden, even in cases envisioned in Canon 1098. However, if the parties, whether in good or bad faith, do approach a non-Catholic minister and exchange matrimonial consent, otherwise naturally sufficient, in the presence of two witnesses, the marriage will nonetheless be valid. The Church has at times recognized marriages contracted before non-Catholic ministers. Pope Pius X, in his apostolic letter “Provida,” dated January 18, 1906, declared that in Germany the parties in a mixed marriage would be exempt from the ordinary form of marriage. Marriages contracted before a civil official or a non-Catholic minister were to be considered valid in such cases. This exemption was later extended also to Hungary. It had been a long-standing rule under the Tametsi matrimonial discipline that with reference to the form prescribed by the decree Tametsi there should be observed that part which could be observed. Hence matrimonial consent in the presence of two witnesses was all that was required. The fact that this took place in a nonCatholic ceremony was something irrelevant and could be abstracted from.


The Jurist. “The History and Application of Canon 1098.” John De Reeper, M.H.F. (1954), p.174
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According to an answer of the S.C. Sacr. 22nd March, 1910 such a marriage is valid even if the couple intentionally went to a place where no authorized priest was within reach, and this is even licit, since they merely use their rights. Similarly it is licit to delay the marriage until all the conditions demanded by canon 1098 have been fulfilled. Should the couple then contract a so-called civil marriage, i.e. according to the customs of the district, provided that all the conditions of canon 1098 have been fulfilled, even if they erroneously believe that their marriage is invalid in the eyes of the Church and that therefore they have been guilty of sin, and even if they know nothing of the exception of canon 1098, still the marriage is valid.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on July 21, 2020, 02:47:11 PM
Great info, thank you.  However, it seems to me that there is a distinction in canon law between 1) valid but illicit marriage, and 2) valid and licit marriage, 3) valid, licit and sacramental.  The fact that the Church acknowledges and gives permission for a mixed marriage (when the non-Catholic agrees to the "cautiones") does not mean, that the marriage is a sacrament, it only means the Church recognizes it as a valid natural law marriage.
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It also shows that canon law recognizes a valid, natural marriage before a justice of the peace/minister, though such an act by catholics would be gravely sinful and illicit, but still valid.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on October 02, 2020, 09:58:17 AM
Right.  Any non-catholic, even if baptized, can’t receive a sacrament because they aren’t/won’t submit to the authority of the Church/pope.  So they can’t have the benefits/graces of the sacrament.  How could they?
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This also applies if a catholic marries a non-catholic (even if both are baptized).  A sacrament requires BOTH persons to submit to church authority.  If there is a reason/approval for a mixed-marriage, then the couple can receive certain church blessings but they don’t/won’t have the full-time sacramental graces for the rest of their lives.  
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This is why mixed-marriages have been forbidden save for extreme circumstances.  In the US it’s much more common for mixed marriages, because we're a Protestant country, but in catholic counties it’s much more unique (pre V2).  
I finally got around to digging out my Woywod/Smith canon law commentary (1917 CIC), and I'm finding no evidence of this.  I've attached what I did find.  W/S makes no such distinction, unless it's buried somewhere in their volumes and I didn't see it.

Please provide a source that says baptized non-Catholics, or even a Catholic dispensed to marry a baptized non-Catholic, does not and cannot confect a valid sacrament of matrimony.

I'm not particularly overjoyed that baptized non-Catholics can, as the Orthodox would say, "rend asunder the garments of Christ", by confecting a valid sacrament outside of the Church, but if the reality is what it is, so be it.  While baptism and matrimony do not strictly and in all cases require a priest with valid orders to confect, heretics and schismatics who have valid orders can also confect other sacraments validly (such as the Eucharistic liturgy).  If this weren't the case, no Orthodox Divine Liturgy would truly confect the Body and Blood of Christ.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 10:16:58 AM
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Please provide a source that says baptized non-Catholics, or even a Catholic dispensed to marry a baptized non-Catholic, does not and cannot confect a valid sacrament of matrimony.

Your own source says it.  pg2
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"The great mass of christians separated from the Catholic Church (i.e. protestants, heretics, schismatics...the Orthodox possibly being an exception because they "could" have valid priests) do not admit the teaching of the Church as to the sacramental character of marriage."
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Of course they don't.  They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage, nor do they desire one, because to accept that marriage is a sacrament (as the article continues) they would "have to admit...that the Church alone...has jurisdiction over the marriage contract."
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There are 3 different classes/questions raised here.
1)  Could an orthodox couple have a sacramental marriage, being that they don't recognize the Roman Church as being their spiritual authority?  I'd say "no".
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2) Could a protestant couple have a sacramental marriage, being they recognize no spiritual authority, except the Bible?  Obviously, no.
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3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".  If the couple isn't united in their decision to follow the Church's authority (since one of the spouses is non-catholic), then how can the couple have a sacramental marriage?  The non-catholic spouse doesn't even believe that sacraments exist or are beneficial!  It makes no sense that a sacrament could exist, which is why the pre-V2 church made it a REQUIREMENT to get approval for a mixed-marriage...because the spiritual ramifications of having a non-sacramental marriage were so dangerous.
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If a marriage with a non-catholic, baptized spouse were a sacrament, then why was special permission needed at all?  I think this is self-explanatory.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 02, 2020, 10:27:19 AM
They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage
In Catholic theology a priest is not necessary for a sacramental marriage; the partners administer it to each other through the marriage contract.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 10:34:12 AM

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In Catholic theology a priest is not necessary for a sacramental marriage; the partners administer it to each other through the marriage contract.

That's true, but Protestants don't believe marriage is a sacrament (if they believe in sacraments at all), so they can't bestow what they don't believe in.  (This presumes that both protestants were validly baptized).
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 10:44:17 AM

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3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".

SimpleMan, thanks for posting your research.  I just found a few articles from a canon lawyer and it seems to clear things up.  He's obviously using the new code of canon law, but it still seems correct to me.  Basically, what I wrote above is both true and false, depending on circumstances.
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https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2009/02/19/can-non-catholics-receive-the-catholic-sacrament-of-matrimony/
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It won't let me copy-paste, so here is a summary:
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An unbaptized person who marries a catholic = no sacrament.
A baptized non-catholic who marries a catholic, in the Church = possible sacrament.
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The baptized, non-catholic must have the proper marriage instruction, acceptance and belief in the sacrament for one to take place.  They have to "intend the same exclusivity, perpetuity and mutual self-giving that catholics must have, if his consent is to be valid."  (Added by me:  including the Church's teachings on contraception, children, etc).
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Therefore, if the baptized non-catholic didn't have good instructions, or didn't accept all Church teaching, or didn't vow to live the sacrament, then it wouldn't be valid.  So marriage prep is key.
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Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: SimpleMan on October 02, 2020, 10:46:52 AM
Your own source says it.  pg2
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"The great mass of christians separated from the Catholic Church (i.e. protestants, heretics, schismatics...the Orthodox possibly being an exception because they "could" have valid priests) do not admit the teaching of the Church as to the sacramental character of marriage."
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Of course they don't.  They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage, nor do they desire one, because to accept that marriage is a sacrament (as the article continues) they would "have to admit...that the Church alone...has jurisdiction over the marriage contract."

I think the Protestants would challenge that, and I know the Orthodox would.  When my cousin was married by a fundamentalist Protestant minister many years ago, I distinctly remember the minister referring to it as a "sacrament", and one reason I remember this, is that he pronounced it "SAY-kra-ment", which I found amusing.

Now whether ministers such as these understand "sacraments" in the same way we do, I do not know.  A better question might be "do you intend to confect this marriage as a sacrament in the way that the Catholic Church understands a 'sacrament', even though you reject the Roman Church's authority over the marriage contract".  I think the odd Anglican or Lutheran, at the very least, would say "yes".  Methodists and Presbyterians probably would too.

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There are 3 different classes/questions raised here.
1)  Could an orthodox couple have a sacramental marriage, being that they don't recognize the Roman Church as being their spiritual authority?  I'd say "no".

This would certainly come as news to them.

Their response would be more like "we do indeed have the sacraments, it's you who don't have them, because we are the One True Church, not you Latins".  I think it can be reasonably inferred that they intend to do what the Roman Church does.

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2) Could a protestant couple have a sacramental marriage, being they recognize no spiritual authority, except the Bible?  Obviously, no.

See above.
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3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".  If the couple isn't united in their decision to follow the Church's authority (since one of the spouses is non-catholic), then how can the couple have a sacramental marriage?  The non-catholic spouse doesn't even believe that sacraments exist or are beneficial!  It makes no sense that a sacrament could exist, which is why the pre-V2 church made it a REQUIREMENT to get approval for a mixed-marriage...because the spiritual ramifications of having a non-sacramental marriage were so dangerous.
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If a marriage with a non-catholic, baptized spouse were a sacrament, then why was special permission needed at all?  I think this is self-explanatory.

I'd be interested to know what ++Lefebvre and ++Williamson would say about this.  Does anybody know?
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 11:02:29 AM
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When my cousin was married by a fundamentalist Protestant minister many years ago, I distinctly remember the minister referring to it as a "sacrament", and one reason I remember this, is that he pronounced it "SAY-kra-ment", which I found amusing.
Ok, but just because something is called a sacrament doesn't mean it is one.  A belief does not make a fact.
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Now whether ministers such as these understand "sacraments" in the same way we do, I do not know.  
How could they?  If they reject the Church's teachings, how can they understand the teachings in the same way as those who accept the teachings?
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A better question might be "do you intend to confect this marriage as a sacrament in the way that the Catholic Church understands a 'sacrament', even though you reject the Roman Church's authority over the marriage contract".
Exactly.  This must be judged based on principles and doctrine, not appearance, language or perspective.
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I think the odd Anglican or Lutheran, at the very least, would say "yes".  Methodists and Presbyterians probably would too.

They might say "yes, I intend a sacrament just the same as my catholic neighbors." but the reality is, if they don't believe in the Church's doctrines on 1) divorce/re-marriage, 2) contraception, 3) primary/secondary purposes of marriage, 4) raising of children, etc...then they don't have the basics for a sacramental marriage.  
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I've never heard of any protestant who agrees with the Church on all 4 of the above.  All protestants (and orthdox too) have lax rules on divorce/re-marriage and most all say contraception is ok.  No sacrament is possible for such heretical views.
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Their response would be more like "we do indeed have the sacraments, it's you who don't have them, because we are the One True Church, not you Latins".  I think it can be reasonably inferred that they intend to do what the Roman Church does.

Intention does not suffice.  You must have matter (true beliefs) and form (intention).  Just because a couple *thinks* that their beliefs are true and from Apostolic times does not make them so.  Again, almost all orthodox have lax doctrines on divorce/re-marriage/contraception.  This would prevent a sacrament.
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Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 02, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
They might say "yes, I intend a sacrament just the same as my catholic neighbors." but the reality is, if they don't believe in the Church's doctrines on 1) divorce/re-marriage, 2) contraception, 3) primary/secondary purposes of marriage, 4) raising of children, etc...then they don't have the basics for a sacramental marriage.  
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I've never heard of any protestant who agrees with the Church on all 4 of the above.  All protestants (and orthdox too) have lax rules on divorce/re-marriage and most all say contraception is ok.  No sacrament is possible for such heretical views.
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While Protestant churches allow remarriage, what matters is what the couple believes at the time of the marriage.

If the couple are open to children, and believe their OWN marriage will last, then they may very well seriously vow "until death do us part". If so, that's a valid marriage contract.

That's true, but Protestants don't believe marriage is a sacrament (if they believe in sacraments at all), so they can't bestow what they don't believe in.  (This presumes that both protestants were validly baptized).
Many protestants do believe marriage is a sacrament.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 12:01:32 PM

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While Protestant churches allow remarriage, what matters is what the couple believes at the time of the marriage.
You are missing the point.  The Church defines what a marriage is.  She lays out the doctrines that MUST be believed, or else there is no sacrament.  99.99% (maybe 100%) of protestants fail to believe and follow church doctrine on the following areas:
1.  Divorce and remarriage is not allowed...even for the protestant-error of adultery.
2.  Contraception is never allowed, for any reason.
3.  Primary end of marriage = children.  Secondary ends = love, mutual temporal aid, etc
4.  One must raise children as Catholic, to believe all doctrines of the Church.
5.  Might be a few more...
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The above are non-negotiables to a sacramental marriage.  If the couple don't know, or don't believe in the above, then they can't have a sacrament, by definition.
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If the couple are open to children, and believe their OWN marriage will last, then they may very well seriously vow "until death do us part". If so, that's a valid marriage contract.

These are requirements for a NATURAL marriage, for the natural law.  A sacramental marriage requires one to believe/know of Church Doctrine.
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Many protestants do believe marriage is a sacrament.

But they have an erroneous idea of what a sacrament is, or what the Catholic Faith requires to be believed, or they want to make up their own definition of what 'sacrament' means.  This doesn't work.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 02, 2020, 12:11:20 PM
These are requirements for a NATURAL marriage, for the natural law.  A sacramental marriage requires one to believe/know of Church Doctrine.

No, they need to believe certain parts of doctrine at the time of the marriage.

Let's say two Catholics are getting married. One of them believes in divorce in general but not for their own marriage, which they believe will last until death.

That's a valid  marriage contract and a sacramental marriage.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 12:20:13 PM

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No, they need to believe certain parts of doctrine at the time of the marriage.
Agree.  They need to understand/believe, 100% correctly, all doctrine related to the Church's definition of marriage.  The 4 things I listed (+ maybe a few more).
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Let's say two Catholics are getting married. One of them believes in divorce in general but not for their own marriage, which they believe will last until death.

No, that's debatable.  If someone believes in divorce, then they are a heretic and are contrary to Church teaching.  That wouldn't be a sacramental marriage, imo.
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Believing that your personal marriage "will last" is not the same thing as believing, doctrinally, that the Christ/Church say marriages "have to" last, under penalty of grave sin, the violation of your marriage vows, and eternal damnation.
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Thinking that "I believe i've found the right one and our marriage will last" is a sentimental ideal.  Thinking that "I am marrying this person and I MUST be true to them, and MAKE it work, as I am vowing before God", is a doctrinal principle.  Catholics can have both thoughts, but the latter one is required.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: forlorn on October 02, 2020, 12:30:34 PM
Agree.  They need to understand/believe, 100% correctly, all doctrine related to the Church's definition of marriage.  The 4 things I listed (+ maybe a few more).
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No, that's debatable.  If someone believes in divorce, then they are a heretic and are contrary to Church teaching.  That wouldn't be a sacramental marriage, imo.
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Believing that your personal marriage "will last" is not the same thing as believing, doctrinally, that the Christ/Church say marriages "have to" last, under penalty of grave sin, the violation of your marriage vows, and eternal damnation.
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Thinking that "I believe i've found the right one and our marriage will last" is a sentimental ideal.  Thinking that "I am marrying this person and I MUST be true to them, and MAKE it work, as I am vowing before God", is a doctrinal principle.  Catholics can have both thoughts, but the latter one is required.
The fact that the Petrine and Pauline privileges only apply to marriages involving the unbaptised would suggest that any marriage between two baptised people is sacramental, even those between heretics. 

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm):
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It is certain, therefore, that marriage contracted between baptized persons is a sacrament, even the so-called mixed marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, provided the non-Catholic has been validly baptized. It is equally certain that marriage between unbaptized persons is not a sacrament in the strict sense of the word.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 02, 2020, 12:49:05 PM
Thinking that "I believe i've found the right one and our marriage will last" is a sentimental ideal.  Thinking that "I am marrying this person and I MUST be true to them, and MAKE it work, as I am vowing before God", is a doctrinal principle.  Catholics can have both thoughts, but the latter one is required.

If the couple believes they are entering what contemporary culture calls a "trial marriage", that's one thing.

But if they believe they have "found the one" and are not entering a "trial marriage", they can have sufficient intent for a valid marriage (assuming openness to children).

They don't need to believe that all marriages have to last. For marriage consent, they need to intend their own marriage to last.

A valid marriage between two baptized persons is sacramental. This is even stated in the 1917 code of canon law (1012.2). Between baptized persons it is not possible to contract a valid, non-sacramental marriage. Even a natural marriage between non-baptized persons becomes sacramental marriage when both are baptized.

I don't think they even need to believe marriage is a sacrament.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 02:04:56 PM

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It is certain, therefore, that marriage contracted between baptized persons is a sacrament, even the so-called mixed marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, provided the non-Catholic has been validly baptized.

1.  Assuming they were married in the Church.
2.  Assuming the baptized non-catholic was properly instructed and believed in marriage doctrines.
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Even the V2 canon lawyer I quoted said that canon law requires proper instruction and intention from the non-catholic.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 02:14:20 PM

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But if they believe they have "found the one" and are not entering a "trial marriage", they can have sufficient intent for a valid marriage (assuming openness to children).
Maybe.  They have to have the proper, orthodox, catholic understanding/acceptance of the 4-5 doctrines I listed. 
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They don't need to believe that all marriages have to last. For marriage consent, they need to intend their own marriage to last.
This is too subjective.  They need to believe the Divine command in Genesis:  "Til death due us part".  And they need to believe that this applies to ALL valid marriages, because this is church doctrine.  Believing that a truth only applies to you personally, is not believing in the truth at all.  That's called subjectivism - "It's true for me, but may not be true for you."  Nonsense!  God's truths apply to all men, at all times, for all time.  Like gravity and death.
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A valid marriage between two baptized persons is sacramental. This is even stated in the 1917 code of canon law (1012.2).

Right, but there are additional canons which deal with baptized, non-catholics.
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Between baptized persons it is not possible to contract a valid, non-sacramental marriage.
Yes it is.  Sacraments are only for those who accept Church teachings.  If a baptized person does not accept marriage doctrine, then they have no right to God's marriage graces.
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Even a natural marriage between non-baptized persons becomes sacramental marriage when both are baptized.
If they understand/agree with the Church's marriage doctrines.


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I don't think they even need to believe marriage is a sacrament.

Ridiculous.  So someone can receive a sacrament without believing such a sacrament even exists?  Makes no sense.  Canon law is clear on the conditions.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 03, 2020, 04:53:53 PM
This is too subjective.  They need to believe the Divine command in Genesis:  "Til death due us part".  And they need to believe that this applies to ALL valid marriages, because this is church doctrine.  Believing that a truth only applies to you personally, is not believing in the truth at all.  That's called subjectivism - "It's true for me, but may not be true for you."  Nonsense!  God's truths apply to all men, at all times, for all time.  Like gravity and death.

You are overstating the minimum requirements for a valid marriage contract. The contract is between one man and one woman, and its validity depends on what they believe/accept about their own marriage, not what they may or may not believe about other couples. And thus, it is possible for Protestants to have valid marriages despite otherwise accepting divorce.

You're right on many topics, Pax. On this one, you are wrong. Even if you think you're arguing against "subjectivism".
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 03, 2020, 05:35:48 PM
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You are overstating the minimum requirements for a valid marriage contract. The contract is between one man and one woman, and its validity depends on what they believe/accept about their own marriage, not what they may or may not believe about other couples. And thus, it is possible for Protestants to have valid marriages despite otherwise accepting divorce.

There are different minimum requirements for a natural law marriage (i.e. a valid contract) vs a Catholic, sacramental marriage (a valid contract + a sacrament).  You are conflating the "natural law minimums" with the higher, doctrinally more strict, catholic sacramental necessities.  Did you read the canon law article?  He lays it all out.
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Pagans, Muslims, Jews and Protestants can have natural law marriages, no problem.  These can be quite pleasing to God.  They can provide much actual grace and those who take their natural law marriages seriously can be led to the Church, by following their state in life.
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But it's quite another level, spiritually speaking, to have the gift of a sacramental marriage.  Unless the individuals are baptized and promise to follow Church teaching and admit to Her authority, only then is a sacramental marriage possible.  Protestants cannot have a sacramental marriage, even if both are baptized, because they do not and will not submit to the Church, nor all Her marriage doctrines.
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You're arguing that a non-catholic can have access to catholic sacraments.  This is totally wrong.  I don't know where you got this idea??
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 03, 2020, 10:58:34 PM
Did you read the canon law article?  He lays it all out.

You mean the text which restates 1917 CJC can. 1012: "there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament"?

You're arguing that a non-catholic can have access to catholic sacraments.  This is totally wrong.  I don't know where you got this idea??

The Orthodox are non-Catholic and have sacraments.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 04, 2020, 11:06:16 AM
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You mean the text which restates 1917 CJC can. 1012: "there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament"?

You can't read 1 canon in isolation from the entire canon law section on matrimony.  That's out of context.  Canon law goes on to define what a "valid matrimonial contract" is, and this has separate requirements, which if not followed, means the marriage isn't valid.
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To show the absurdity of your too-general understanding of the above canon, i'll give you an example:
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Two baptized, practicing catholics get married by a justice-of-the-peace.  Is this a valid marriage?  No.  Thus, it's not a sacrament.  Would it be a valid natural law marriage?  For protestants, pagans, muslims, or jews -- yes, because they aren't bound by church canon law, being they aren't catholic.
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So if 2 baptized protestants get married by a justice-of-the-peace, is that a sacrament?  Of course not!  Canon law is not meant to apply to non-catholics or their situations.  You can only have a sacrament through the Catholic Church...if the couple gets married under the church's laws.  Protestants aren't under the church, so they cannot have a sacrament.
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All sacramental marriages are valid natural-law marriages...and valid catholic marriages.
Not all valid natural-law marriages are sacramental.
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When canon law speaks of "valid" they are speaking of sacramental validity (not natural law validity), because canon law is dealing with catholic ceremonies.  But when speaking of natural law marriages and validity, canon law doesn't address this, because it is only dealing with catholic marriages.  You can't apply canon law to non-catholic ceremonies/marriages and expect it to make sense.  That's not its purpose.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 04, 2020, 07:36:44 PM
When canon law speaks of "valid" they are speaking of sacramental validity (not natural law validity), because canon law is dealing with catholic ceremonies.  But when speaking of natural law marriages and validity, canon law doesn't address this, because it is only dealing with catholic marriages.  You can't apply canon law to non-catholic ceremonies/marriages and expect it to make sense.  That's not its purpose.

You might be right if we were talking about Catholic ceremonies specific to Catholics in canon law.

That's not the case. We're talking about Catholic doctrine that happens to be included in canon law.

The doctrine is clear.  ""there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament".

Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 04, 2020, 09:13:19 PM

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You might be right if we were talking about Catholic ceremonies specific to Catholics in canon law.
That’s exactly what canon law's purpose is.  It’s only focused on the Catholic Church. 
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The doctrine is clear.  ""there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament".
This isn’t a doctrine, it’s a legal point.
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Canon law is specifically and only talking about Catholics here.  It’s applying doctrine to CATHOLIC individuals who present themselves TO THE CHURCH to get married. 
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Protestants mary themselves, under a church of their own invention, with no understanding of (and many times a rejection of) catholic marriage morality.  They have no right to the sacraments from a church (and a Christ) which they reject.  Canon law doesn’t apply to them (except in the specific case of a mixed marriage) and canon law was not written for them, only for catholic “canons” (ie the church hierarchy).
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 04, 2020, 09:23:37 PM
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Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. 144,  1112, §1, 1116, and 1127, §§1-2.
Here’s an example of a canon which refutes your theory.
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1.  It defines one aspect of a valid marriage (ie even if 2 baptized people “promise themselves” to each other, such is not valid unless the ceremony is performed under the local ordinary.)
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2.  So this contradicts your too-general assertion that all that’s required for a valid, sacramental marriage is “2 baptized persons”.
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3.  If the above is not followed, then no valid marriage took place.  Notice too, the multiple ADDITIONAL canons referenced, which could apply, per the circumstances.  
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Canon law, like all legal systems, is not the most straightforward. With marriage, it’s less so.  
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 04, 2020, 10:04:34 PM
That’s exactly what canon law's purpose is.  It’s only focused on the Catholic Church.

You have studiously missed the point. While the referenced text happens to be in a canon law, it is doctrine.

Indeed, the very commentary you cited says this:

"The statement of Canon 1012 on the sacramental character of the Christian marriage does not properly belong to the domain of Canon Law, but is inserted here as an evidence of the right of the Church to legislate in the matter of marriage. The proof of the dogmatic truth contained in Canon 1012 must be left to dogmatic theology."
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 04, 2020, 11:00:19 PM
On point from https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09707a.htm

Hence not only the marriage between Catholics, but also that contracted by members of the different sects which have retained baptism and validly baptize, is undoubtedly a sacrament.
Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Pax Vobis on October 05, 2020, 09:51:12 AM
Stanley, I appreciate this debate and you've made some good points.  Upon further reading, I believe we may disagree due to terminology.  I am partially wrong in my explanations and, from my perspective, so are you.  I am arguing for the practical application of your argument of theory.  Theoretically you are right, but practically, your theory doesn't apply.  Let me explain:
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A.  Per canon law, one who is baptized is a catholic, regardless of if they claim to be "protestant".  So, technically speaking, there is no such thing (in the eyes of the Church) as a "baptized protestant".  She views all those who are baptized as "catholics".  They would then be viewed as heretics, assuming they are Protestant from birth.  Those who are brought up Catholic, but left the faith for protestantism, would be called a defector from the faith, in addition to a heretic.
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B.  Let us also distinguish between
1) who can/could (in theory) receive the sacrament (which is what you are arguing) and
2) who *actually* receives the sacramental graces (which is what I'm arguing).
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Example:  A baptized catholic man, who has not gone to confession in 5 years, confesses his sins to a priest, but knowingly hides a mortal sin.
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1.  This man is able to receive the sacramental graces of confession (in theory), as he is baptized and has gone before.
2.  This man does *NOT* receive the actual sacramental graces because he did not fulfill its requirements.
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Example:  2 "baptized protestants" have a protestant marriage ceremony.
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1.  These "baptized heretical catholics" are able to receive sacramental marriage (in theory).
2.  In practice, this couple would *NOT* receive the sacrament, and the marriage would be null (per canon law) due to the following errors/sins:
   a.  Not believing in marriage for life (both for their own personal marriage, but also as doctrine applying to all marriages).
   b.  Same as above, but believing in re-marriage, for the "protestant heretical" misinterpretation of "infidelity".
   c.  Not wanting children (contrary to natural law), or believing that contraception is acceptable (heresy) and its use.  
   d.  Hiding some other impediment to marriage, per canon law's rules.
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3.  In practice, this couple would *NOT* receive the sacrament (i.e. graces from the sacrament), and the marriage would be ineffective (per canon law) due to the following errors/sins:
   a.  If any or both of the couple is in mortal sin.  The graces of the sacrament aren't effective, nor received, until the couple enters the state of grace.
   b.  Again, most protestants are perpetually in mortal sin for their false beliefs and practice of heretical acts:  re-marriage & contraception.
   c.  Even if the protestant couple were to believe in all orthodox catholic doctrine against re-marriage and contraception, it is highly doubtful they would be in the state of grace, due to the numerous other heresies that protestant sects accept.  
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**Remember, because they are baptized, they must follow canon law and Church Doctrine, in order to receive the sacrament.  The only area they are exempt from, is in not having a valid, ordained minister.  All other catholic morals, dogmas and requirements for marriage must be met, to have a valid/sacramental marriage.**
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Conclusion:  Thus, 99.9% (maybe 100%) of protestant marriages are sacramentally void of grace (in practice) even though (in theory) they *may* have received the sacrament (if they held orthodox views on marriage doctrine).
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Only when the couple 1) enters the state of grace, through a perfect act of contrition, and 2) comes back into the Church fully, can they take advantage of the sacramental graces which they *may* have received (in a potential state) when they were married.

Title: Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
Post by: Stanley N on October 07, 2020, 11:05:00 AM
OK, fair enough, Pax. Sacramental graces may be impeded even by Catholics.

I'm not sure I would say actual graces are entirely excluded by mortal sin, but that is s somewhat different topic.