Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 2055 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2020, 06:07:27 PM »
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  • I was told the SSPX, or any bishop or priest, can only give an opinion regarding nullity.  They cannot grant a declaration of nullity.  The SSPX violates canon law in doing so.
    I was told that if a priest or bishop evaluates a case and he is willing to remarry someone, it is on his soul as to whether or he should have done such.  
    I'm not clear what you are saying.  No bishop can grant a declaration of nullity?  I thought that's precisely what diocesan bishops did, though with their tribunal "doing all the work" and making the decision as to whether the marriage is invalid or not.  Or are you referring only to SSPX bishops?

    Likewise, when you say "evaluates a case and... is willing to remarry someone", do you mean an SSPX priest or bishop being told the facts of the matter regarding the marriage, ascertaining that it was invalid, and then "remarrying" one of the spouses to another partner?  Or are you referring to priests and bishops in general?  Traditional priests and bishops in general?

    Prior to Vatican II, annulments were very rare, and it's not something the average priest (or possibly even bishop) would have ever encountered.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #31 on: July 15, 2020, 12:19:03 PM »
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  • I'm not clear what you are saying.  No bishop can grant a declaration of nullity?  I thought that's precisely what diocesan bishops did, though with their tribunal "doing all the work" and making the decision as to whether the marriage is invalid or not.  Or are you referring only to SSPX bishops?

    Likewise, when you say "evaluates a case and... is willing to remarry someone", do you mean an SSPX priest or bishop being told the facts of the matter regarding the marriage, ascertaining that it was invalid, and then "remarrying" one of the spouses to another partner?  Or are you referring to priests and bishops in general?  Traditional priests and bishops in general?

    Prior to Vatican II, annulments were very rare, and it's not something the average priest (or possibly even bishop) would have ever encountered.

    Yes, I meant I was told that no traditional bishop can grant an annulment.  Also, only specific, not all, diocesan bishops can grant annulment.

    No traditional bishop, including the sspx bishops, are diocesan.  They have no authority in canon law to have a marriage tribunal or to decide annulments.

    However, due to the problems associated with the novus ordo, some traditional non-sspx priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to decide whether or not they will re-marry someone (ipso facto granting an "annulment" by taking the burden onto themselves).

    It is not an area many traditional priests or bishops will enter, for obvious reasons.


    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #32 on: July 16, 2020, 12:06:20 AM »
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  • The one that I mention a few times is the first one I heard about in years. Back in the days of Bishop Musey, there were a few that he looked at. Where a man claimed he was forced to marry and that was granted an annulment. The only problem I had was the same man did this with another marriage. So I question that one.

    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #33 on: July 16, 2020, 12:03:29 PM »
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  • That might be true of the SSPX, but I was thinking more of independent non-sedevacantist bishops (including SSPX Resistance), as well as bishops who are sedevacantist.  Neither has been given any authority by the Holy See.
    the crises in the Church overrides that.

    Offline St.Patrick

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #34 on: July 16, 2020, 12:07:06 PM »
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  • I was told the SSPX, or any bishop or priest, can only give an opinion regarding nullity.  They cannot grant a declaration of nullity.  The SSPX violates canon law in doing so.
    I was told that if a priest or bishop evaluates a case and he is willing to remarry someone, it is on his soul as to whether or he should have done such.  
    Canon law is violated totally by the crisis in the Church, since it's final end is the salvation of souls.
    Therefore, it is irrelevant to make a distinction between a declaration and an opinion. You are seeking formality for formality's sake. If a marriage never was, it never was. That's what annulment is.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #35 on: July 16, 2020, 12:19:28 PM »
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  • Quote
    Yes, I meant I was told that no traditional bishop can grant an annulment.  Also, only specific, not all, diocesan bishops can grant annulment.

    No traditional bishop, including the sspx bishops, are diocesan.  They have no authority in canon law to have a marriage tribunal or to decide annulments.
    Agree.
    .
    Quote
    However, due to the problems associated with the novus ordo, some traditional non-sspx priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to decide whether or not they will re-marry someone (ipso facto granting an "annulment" by taking the burden onto themselves).
    The only cases that are clear cut is if the "first marriage" is with a convert/non-baptized person.  In that case, no sacramental marriage existed, so a catholic marriage can happen.  All other cases are pretty hairy.
    .
    Quote
    Canon law is violated totally by the crisis in the Church, since it's final end is the salvation of souls.
    Some parts of Canon Law are violated, but not all.
    .
    Quote
    Therefore, it is irrelevant to make a distinction between a declaration and an opinion.
    No, it's an important distinction.  It's the difference between a judge ruling on a matter vs 100 lawyers giving you an OPINION on how the judge should rule.
    .
    Quote
    If a marriage never was, it never was. That's what annulment is.
    And in the complex cases involving 2 baptized persons, the annulment process is important to get a decision from an authority.  The research/process is just as important as the ruling.  Trad clerics aren't trained in this area, so theirs is an opinion only, not a final ruling.

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #36 on: July 16, 2020, 12:36:34 PM »
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  • The only cases that are clear cut is if the "first marriage" is with a convert/non-baptized person.  In that case, no sacramental marriage existed, so a catholic marriage can happen.  All other cases are pretty hairy.
    How does being a convert enter into it?

    Cases where a Catholic did not follow canonical form (and was not dispensed from it), commonly referred to as "marrying outside the Church", are pretty clear-cut.  The only thing that is missing, is the Church having all the documentation that things happened that way, saying "okay, it's proven, Romeo married Juliet outside of canonical form, they weren't dispensed, nobody ever got a sanatio in radice, therefore there was never a marriage".  Even if Romeo and Juliet were both Catholic, and sought out a justice of the peace, there would still be no valid marriage.  If a non-diocesan traditionalist bishop assembled the facts in front of him, and had all relevant facts proven, then it's hard to see a problem with that.

    The more subjective cases (too immature, had a psychological problem, couldn't balance a checkbook, didn't get along with the neighbors, what have you) wouldn't be an issue, because prior to V2, those weren't grounds for annulment.

    Offline In Principio

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #37 on: July 16, 2020, 01:25:27 PM »
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  • How does being a convert enter into it?

    Cases where a Catholic did not follow canonical form (and was not dispensed from it), commonly referred to as "marrying outside the Church", are pretty clear-cut.  The only thing that is missing, is the Church having all the documentation that things happened that way, saying "okay, it's proven, Romeo married Juliet outside of canonical form, they weren't dispensed, nobody ever got a sanatio in radice, therefore there was never a marriage".  Even if Romeo and Juliet were both Catholic, and sought out a justice of the peace, there would still be no valid marriage.  If a non-diocesan traditionalist bishop assembled the facts in front of him, and had all relevant facts proven, then it's hard to see a problem with that.

    The more subjective cases (too immature, had a psychological problem, couldn't balance a checkbook, didn't get along with the neighbors, what have you) wouldn't be an issue, because prior to V2, those weren't grounds for annulment.
    Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #38 on: July 16, 2020, 05:10:34 PM »
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  • Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
    I never knew that.  I have a Woywod/Smith commentary and will check it out.  Thanks.

    So is this to say that, if a pastor or ordinary cannot be seen for a month, the dispensation from canonical form, and permission for a Catholic to marry a baptized non-Catholic, basically "issues itself"?

    My next question would be "why in the heck is it so important for people to be able to marry within the space of a month?".  Our Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all, the fact that they would like to marry notwithstanding --- that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate.  Life doesn't always play out on our preferred terms.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #39 on: July 16, 2020, 05:39:28 PM »
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  • the crises in the Church overrides that.
    Be careful using "the crisis in the Church" too often.
    Some, like Fr. Pfeiffer, use it to create a cult.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #40 on: July 16, 2020, 05:42:03 PM »
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  • Canon law is violated totally by the crisis in the Church,
    Wrong.


    "Therefore, it is irrelevant to make a distinction between a declaration and an opinion. You are seeking formality for formality's sake. If a marriage never was, it never was. That's what annulment is."

    Which is why I said "However, due to the problems associated with the novus ordo, some traditional non-sspx priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to decide whether or not they will re-marry someone (ipso facto granting an "annulment" by taking the burden onto themselves).

    It is not an area many traditional priests or bishops will enter, for obvious reasons."


    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #41 on: July 16, 2020, 05:46:35 PM »
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  • Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
    This is whwhat I was taught, too.

    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #42 on: July 16, 2020, 05:48:13 PM »
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  • Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all, the fact that they would like to marry notwithstanding --- that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate.  Life doesn't always play out on our preferred terms.

    Ok. But then there are others who look real good and to them a month appears like eternity.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #43 on: July 16, 2020, 05:54:40 PM »
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  • The more subjective cases (too immature, had a psychological problem, couldn't balance a checkbook, didn't get along with the neighbors, what have you) wouldn't be an issue, because prior to V2, those weren't grounds for annulment.
    Right.
    I was taught the other major ground is deceit of an important nature before marriage.  For instance, if one person had been married before, is an alcoholic and/or a drug addict, had a history of physical abuse or mental illness, and kept it from the other party before marriage.  These must be proven and verified, but I was taught they are all pre-Vatican 2 annulment grounds.
    Perhaps Pax can corroborate. 

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #44 on: July 16, 2020, 10:04:19 PM »
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  • Ok. But then there are others who look real good and to them a month appears like eternity.
    Not clear on what you mean by this.  Are you referring to women who are attractive, who have found someone to marry, and don't want to wait a month?

    This thumb and index finger of mine rubbing together are me playing a threnody of pity and sorrow on the world's smallest violin.


     

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