Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 2072 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline poche

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16730
  • Reputation: +1200/-4685
  • Gender: Male
Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2020, 11:02:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I was trying to highlight the case of a catholic marrying a non-Catholic outside of the Church.  In that case, there is no sacramental marriage, though there is a natural law marriage.  If the non-Catholic converts, then they would be obligated to get it blessed by the Church.
    .
    If you have 2 non-catholics get a natural marriage, but one converts to the Faith, while the other is anti-Catholic and harsh towards the Faith, the convert could get "re-married" to a catholic.  It's called the Pauline Privilege, as it apparently was supported by St Paul, during the early days.  My explanation is simplistic, but this is what I've been told.
    The Pauline privilege would only apply to non baptized persons. If the non Catholic was validly baptized and still hostile to the Catholic parties conversion then the Pauline privilege would not apply.   

    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +59/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #61 on: July 20, 2020, 08:07:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
    .
    Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).D
    This is what I was taught, too.


    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +59/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #62 on: July 20, 2020, 08:09:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I've never heard this.  I've only heard that a CATHOLIC COUPLE could marry themselves, if after 30 days a suitable pastor/ordinary cannot be found.  This is the canon law that Trads use to have supplied jurisdiction for marriages, as there aren't any orthodox pastors/ordinaries in existence.
    .
    I have never heard this before.
    Interesting.

    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +59/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #63 on: July 20, 2020, 08:28:54 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't mean to question your traditionalist bona fides, but some of this just doesn't sound right --- "valid from a human promise aspect", "God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows" --- God does not bless people for sin.  It's not "slightly better than cohabitating", it is cohabitating.

    Here is how I have always understood it:
    This is what I was taught:
    * Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage. Correct
    * Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid I was taught this is a valid sacramental marriage, but it receives no blessing from the Church. It is not advised.
    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage incorrect.  The sacrament passes from the catholic  woman to rhe catholic man and vice versa.  It cannot be recrived any other way.  So in this instance, in order to have correct canonical form a dispensation would have had to have been given by the Church.  The marriage would be blessed by the Church but no sacrament would be involved.
    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid correct
    * Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental same as above
    * Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid correct
    * Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage incorrect
    * Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental correct
    * Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)  not sure on this one.

    If any of this is incorrect, please show me how.
    From what I was taught, basically:

    2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

    All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved.

    If a dispensation is granted the one Catholic to a mixed marriage, he can receive a blessing for his marriage and the Church recognizes it as valid.

    All other options involving a Catholic are not valid within the Church.

    Marriages of non-Catholics are valid.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1049
    • Reputation: +328/-89
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #64 on: July 20, 2020, 09:39:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • From what I was taught, basically:

    2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

    All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved. Then the Church must have changed her teaching (or possibly just discipline, or both), as I have always understood that when Catholics marry baptized non-Catholics with canonical form and dispensation/permission, a valid sacrament is confected.  I don't doubt, as you put it, that you were taught this, but just for my own edification, I'm going to check out Woywod/Smith so I will more fully understand.  This runs entirely counter to what I have always understood.  I fully recognize that it is possible to "understand wrong", even for many decades --- I realize many people are resistant to change what they have "always thought", but I'm not one of them.  Truth is truth regardless.

    If a dispensation is granted the one Catholic to a mixed marriage, he can receive a blessing for his marriage and the Church recognizes it as valid.  Valid natural marriage, but even if it is between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic, not sacramental?

    All other options involving a Catholic are not valid within the Church.

    Marriages of non-Catholics are valid. Are you saying, then, that the marriage of two baptized non-Catholics is only a valid natural marriage, not sacramental?  And what about the Orthodox?


    Offline Venantius0518

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 277
    • Reputation: +59/-27
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #65 on: July 20, 2020, 11:56:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • 2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

    All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved because only baptized Catholics can receive sacraments of the Catholic Church.  

    The Baltimore Catechism distinguishes between protestants and Christians (i.e., Catholics) in Q571.

    Baltimore catechism:
    - Q1055 "The sacrament of Matrimony is the sacrament which unites a Christian man and woman in lawful marriage."
    - Q1011 "A Christian man and woman cannot be united in lawful marriage in any other way than by the sacrament of matrimony, because Christ raised marriage to the dignity of a sacrament."
    - Q1015 "That the Church may grant dispensations from the impediments to marriage or from other laws, there must be a good and urgent reason for granting such dispendsations.  The Church does not grant dispensations without cause and merely to satisfy the wishes of those who ask for them."

    Precept of the Church:
    "Not to marry persons who are not Catholic, nor related to us within the third degree of kindred, nor privately without witnesses, nor to solemnize marriages at forbidden times."


    Offline poche

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 16730
    • Reputation: +1200/-4685
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #66 on: July 20, 2020, 10:47:10 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have never heard this before.
    Interesting.
    There was an incident in the Notre Dame archives where it was declared that a couple who had made their vows in private were validly married due to the fact that the area (Ohio region) was an area where the decrees of the Council of Trent were not promulgated.
    The Vatican also decreed that the marriage of James Healy's parents were valid and legitimate, the place of the marriage (Georgia) having no access to a priest who could officiate at the marriage.   

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6236
    • Reputation: +3544/-1033
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #67 on: July 20, 2020, 11:33:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Are you saying, then, that the marriage of two baptized non-Catholics is only a valid natural marriage, not sacramental?
    Right.  Any non-catholic, even if baptized, can’t receive a sacrament because they aren’t/won’t submit to the authority of the Church/pope.  So they can’t have the benefits/graces of the sacrament.  How could they? 
    .
    This also applies if a catholic marries a non-catholic (even if both are baptized).  A sacrament requires BOTH persons to submit to church authority.  If there is a reason/approval for a mixed-marriage, then the couple can receive certain church blessings but they don’t/won’t have the full-time sacramental graces for the rest of their lives.  
    .
    This is why mixed-marriages have been forbidden save for extreme circumstances.  In the US it’s much more common for mixed marriages, because we're a Protestant country, but in catholic counties it’s much more unique (pre V2).  


    Offline In Principio

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 18
    • Reputation: +2/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #68 on: July 21, 2020, 01:32:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.  The judgment, beliefs, motives, or sinful intentions of those marrying does not affect validity, even if those marrying think their marriage will be invalid in the eyes of the Church.  Canon 1098 takes effect as soon as the conditions are fulfilled, independent of a priest declaring it or the parties knowing about the canon.
    Here are some sources with regard to my post:


    Canon Law Digest, Vol.III. T. Lincoln Bouscaren, S.J. (1954), p.454: 
    Quote
       Mixed Marriage Before Protestant Minister Valid If Conditions of Canon 1098 for Marriage Before Witnesses Only Are Verified (S. C. Sacr., 4 March, 1925) Private.
      The following rescript was received by the Bishop of Pinsk in reply to a question concerning mixed marriages.
      Reply. If all the conditions which are required by canon 1098 for the validity of marriages before witnesses only are verified, the circumstance that such marriages were blessed in a non-Catholic church is an argument, not against validity, but against licitness.
      (Private); S. C. Sacr., 4 March, 1925. Reported by Dalpiaz in Apollinaris, Vol. 10, 1937, p. 277. See also Nevin in The Australasian Catholic Record, Vol. 19, 1942, p. 96.


    A Practical Commentary on the Code of Canon Law, Vol.I. Stanislaus Woywod, O.F.M. (1948), pp.779-780:
    Quote
    It need scarcely be remarked here that, when the parties are entitled to contract marriage without the presence of the priest, they are justified in going to a justice of the peace, or any other official of the government who is entitled to witness the marriages, so that their marriage may have the recognition of the civil law. They can also marry before a non-Catholic minister, not as a minister of religion but as an official entitled by civil law to witness marriages; they must not allow him to use any religious ceremony, as may be seen from Canon 1063.



    The Jurist. “The History and Application of Canon 1098.” John De Reeper, M.H.F. (1954), p.176: 
    Quote
    According to canon 1060 the impediment of mixed religion is an ‘impedimentum prohibens’ which sub gravi forbids the marriage between a Catholic and a baptized nonCatholic, but does not make it invalid. Moreover, it is stipulated in canon 1061 that, before a dispensation from this impediment can be given, the ‘cautiones’ must first be given, whereby the non-Catholic promises to avoid all that might lead to a weakening of the faith of the Catholic party, while both the Catholic and non-Catholic party promise to see to the baptism and Catholic upbringing of the children of their marriage. The ‘cautiones’ are required ad validitatem for the dispensation, even in danger of death. Hence, no dispensation from the impediment is possible without the ‘cautiones’. And in the case where no dispensation from the impediment of mixed religion was obtained, the marriage is graviter illicitum, but all the same validum since it is a question of an impedimentum prohibens. If they contracted a marriage without the ‘cautiones’ being given either implicite or explicite, they are validly married without dispensation or suspension from the impediment, and the Catholic party is punishable according to canon 2375, ipso facto excluded from all legitimate ecclesiastical acts and from the sacramentals. The latae sententiae penalty of exclusion from legitimate ecclesiastical acts is vindicative and supposes full knowledge and deliberation, since canon 2375 uses the term ‘ausi fuerint’. Hence ignorance even crass or supine, fear, even light, and any cause which lessens imputability excuses from the penalty (canon 2229, par 1, 2). But the Ordinary can dispense from these penalties. However, as we saw already, the marriage is valid though punishable because of the absence of ‘cautiones’.



    The Extraordinary Form of Marriage According to Canon 1098. Edward Fus, J.C.D (1954), p.133:
    Quote
    It is a gratuitous assumption to say that the witnesses mentioned in Canon 1098 have to be privatae personae. To state that Canon 1094 excludes civil officials and non-Catholic ministers and that therefore they are to be excluded in Canon 1098 does not quite follow. A nonCatholic minister or a civil official, qua talis, cannot take part in a Catholic ceremony in his official capacity. They are not excluded by law from acting as ordinary witnesses in the ordinary form of marriage. In marriages contracted according to the extraordinary form, at least as far as validity is concerned, there is nothing in the law that excludes them from acting in their official capacity. The law disregards their official capacity and takes cognizance merely of the exchange of matrimonial consent in the presence of two witnesses. As for the argument that a non-Catholic ceremony was excluded by the legislator because of the divine law prohibiting participation in a non-Catholic religious service, one may say that such was not the finis legis of the legislator in framing this canon. Non-Catholic ceremonies are still forbidden, even in cases envisioned in Canon 1098. However, if the parties, whether in good or bad faith, do approach a non-Catholic minister and exchange matrimonial consent, otherwise naturally sufficient, in the presence of two witnesses, the marriage will nonetheless be valid. The Church has at times recognized marriages contracted before non-Catholic ministers. Pope Pius X, in his apostolic letter “Provida,” dated January 18, 1906, declared that in Germany the parties in a mixed marriage would be exempt from the ordinary form of marriage. Marriages contracted before a civil official or a non-Catholic minister were to be considered valid in such cases. This exemption was later extended also to Hungary. It had been a long-standing rule under the Tametsi matrimonial discipline that with reference to the form prescribed by the decree Tametsi there should be observed that part which could be observed. Hence matrimonial consent in the presence of two witnesses was all that was required. The fact that this took place in a nonCatholic ceremony was something irrelevant and could be abstracted from.


    The Jurist. “The History and Application of Canon 1098.” John De Reeper, M.H.F. (1954), p.174
    Quote
    According to an answer of the S.C. Sacr. 22nd March, 1910 such a marriage is valid even if the couple intentionally went to a place where no authorized priest was within reach, and this is even licit, since they merely use their rights. Similarly it is licit to delay the marriage until all the conditions demanded by canon 1098 have been fulfilled. Should the couple then contract a so-called civil marriage, i.e. according to the customs of the district, provided that all the conditions of canon 1098 have been fulfilled, even if they erroneously believe that their marriage is invalid in the eyes of the Church and that therefore they have been guilty of sin, and even if they know nothing of the exception of canon 1098, still the marriage is valid.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6236
    • Reputation: +3544/-1033
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #69 on: July 21, 2020, 02:47:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Great info, thank you.  However, it seems to me that there is a distinction in canon law between 1) valid but illicit marriage, and 2) valid and licit marriage, 3) valid, licit and sacramental.  The fact that the Church acknowledges and gives permission for a mixed marriage (when the non-Catholic agrees to the "cautiones") does not mean, that the marriage is a sacrament, it only means the Church recognizes it as a valid natural law marriage.
    .
    It also shows that canon law recognizes a valid, natural marriage before a justice of the peace/minister, though such an act by catholics would be gravely sinful and illicit, but still valid.

    Offline SimpleMan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1049
    • Reputation: +328/-89
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #70 on: October 02, 2020, 09:58:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Right.  Any non-catholic, even if baptized, can’t receive a sacrament because they aren’t/won’t submit to the authority of the Church/pope.  So they can’t have the benefits/graces of the sacrament.  How could they?
    .
    This also applies if a catholic marries a non-catholic (even if both are baptized).  A sacrament requires BOTH persons to submit to church authority.  If there is a reason/approval for a mixed-marriage, then the couple can receive certain church blessings but they don’t/won’t have the full-time sacramental graces for the rest of their lives.  
    .
    This is why mixed-marriages have been forbidden save for extreme circumstances.  In the US it’s much more common for mixed marriages, because we're a Protestant country, but in catholic counties it’s much more unique (pre V2).  
    I finally got around to digging out my Woywod/Smith canon law commentary (1917 CIC), and I'm finding no evidence of this.  I've attached what I did find.  W/S makes no such distinction, unless it's buried somewhere in their volumes and I didn't see it.

    Please provide a source that says baptized non-Catholics, or even a Catholic dispensed to marry a baptized non-Catholic, does not and cannot confect a valid sacrament of matrimony.

    I'm not particularly overjoyed that baptized non-Catholics can, as the Orthodox would say, "rend asunder the garments of Christ", by confecting a valid sacrament outside of the Church, but if the reality is what it is, so be it.  While baptism and matrimony do not strictly and in all cases require a priest with valid orders to confect, heretics and schismatics who have valid orders can also confect other sacraments validly (such as the Eucharistic liturgy).  If this weren't the case, no Orthodox Divine Liturgy would truly confect the Body and Blood of Christ.


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6236
    • Reputation: +3544/-1033
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #71 on: October 02, 2020, 10:16:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Please provide a source that says baptized non-Catholics, or even a Catholic dispensed to marry a baptized non-Catholic, does not and cannot confect a valid sacrament of matrimony.

    Your own source says it.  pg2
    .
    "The great mass of christians separated from the Catholic Church (i.e. protestants, heretics, schismatics...the Orthodox possibly being an exception because they "could" have valid priests) do not admit the teaching of the Church as to the sacramental character of marriage."
    .
    Of course they don't.  They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage, nor do they desire one, because to accept that marriage is a sacrament (as the article continues) they would "have to admit...that the Church alone...has jurisdiction over the marriage contract."
    .
    There are 3 different classes/questions raised here.
    1)  Could an orthodox couple have a sacramental marriage, being that they don't recognize the Roman Church as being their spiritual authority?  I'd say "no".
    .
    2) Could a protestant couple have a sacramental marriage, being they recognize no spiritual authority, except the Bible?  Obviously, no.
    .
    3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".  If the couple isn't united in their decision to follow the Church's authority (since one of the spouses is non-catholic), then how can the couple have a sacramental marriage?  The non-catholic spouse doesn't even believe that sacraments exist or are beneficial!  It makes no sense that a sacrament could exist, which is why the pre-V2 church made it a REQUIREMENT to get approval for a mixed-marriage...because the spiritual ramifications of having a non-sacramental marriage were so dangerous.
    .
    If a marriage with a non-catholic, baptized spouse were a sacrament, then why was special permission needed at all?  I think this is self-explanatory.

    Offline Stanley N

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 780
    • Reputation: +243/-252
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #72 on: October 02, 2020, 10:27:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage
    In Catholic theology a priest is not necessary for a sacramental marriage; the partners administer it to each other through the marriage contract.

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6236
    • Reputation: +3544/-1033
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #73 on: October 02, 2020, 10:34:12 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    In Catholic theology a priest is not necessary for a sacramental marriage; the partners administer it to each other through the marriage contract.

    That's true, but Protestants don't believe marriage is a sacrament (if they believe in sacraments at all), so they can't bestow what they don't believe in.  (This presumes that both protestants were validly baptized).

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6236
    • Reputation: +3544/-1033
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #74 on: October 02, 2020, 10:44:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".

    SimpleMan, thanks for posting your research.  I just found a few articles from a canon lawyer and it seems to clear things up.  He's obviously using the new code of canon law, but it still seems correct to me.  Basically, what I wrote above is both true and false, depending on circumstances.
    .
    https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2009/02/19/can-non-catholics-receive-the-catholic-sacrament-of-matrimony/
    .
    It won't let me copy-paste, so here is a summary:
    .
    An unbaptized person who marries a catholic = no sacrament.
    A baptized non-catholic who marries a catholic, in the Church = possible sacrament.
    .
    The baptized, non-catholic must have the proper marriage instruction, acceptance and belief in the sacrament for one to take place.  They have to "intend the same exclusivity, perpetuity and mutual self-giving that catholics must have, if his consent is to be valid."  (Added by me:  including the Church's teachings on contraception, children, etc).
    .
    Therefore, if the baptized non-catholic didn't have good instructions, or didn't accept all Church teaching, or didn't vow to live the sacrament, then it wouldn't be valid.  So marriage prep is key.
    .


     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16