Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 2074 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2020, 10:46:52 AM »
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  • Your own source says it.  pg2
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    "The great mass of christians separated from the Catholic Church (i.e. protestants, heretics, schismatics...the Orthodox possibly being an exception because they "could" have valid priests) do not admit the teaching of the Church as to the sacramental character of marriage."
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    Of course they don't.  They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage, nor do they desire one, because to accept that marriage is a sacrament (as the article continues) they would "have to admit...that the Church alone...has jurisdiction over the marriage contract."

    I think the Protestants would challenge that, and I know the Orthodox would.  When my cousin was married by a fundamentalist Protestant minister many years ago, I distinctly remember the minister referring to it as a "sacrament", and one reason I remember this, is that he pronounced it "SAY-kra-ment", which I found amusing.

    Now whether ministers such as these understand "sacraments" in the same way we do, I do not know.  A better question might be "do you intend to confect this marriage as a sacrament in the way that the Catholic Church understands a 'sacrament', even though you reject the Roman Church's authority over the marriage contract".  I think the odd Anglican or Lutheran, at the very least, would say "yes".  Methodists and Presbyterians probably would too.

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    There are 3 different classes/questions raised here.
    1)  Could an orthodox couple have a sacramental marriage, being that they don't recognize the Roman Church as being their spiritual authority?  I'd say "no".

    This would certainly come as news to them.

    Their response would be more like "we do indeed have the sacraments, it's you who don't have them, because we are the One True Church, not you Latins".  I think it can be reasonably inferred that they intend to do what the Roman Church does.

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    2) Could a protestant couple have a sacramental marriage, being they recognize no spiritual authority, except the Bible?  Obviously, no.

    See above.

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    3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".  If the couple isn't united in their decision to follow the Church's authority (since one of the spouses is non-catholic), then how can the couple have a sacramental marriage?  The non-catholic spouse doesn't even believe that sacraments exist or are beneficial!  It makes no sense that a sacrament could exist, which is why the pre-V2 church made it a REQUIREMENT to get approval for a mixed-marriage...because the spiritual ramifications of having a non-sacramental marriage were so dangerous.
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    If a marriage with a non-catholic, baptized spouse were a sacrament, then why was special permission needed at all?  I think this is self-explanatory.

    I'd be interested to know what ++Lefebvre and ++Williamson would say about this.  Does anybody know?

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #76 on: October 02, 2020, 11:02:29 AM »
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  • Quote
    When my cousin was married by a fundamentalist Protestant minister many years ago, I distinctly remember the minister referring to it as a "sacrament", and one reason I remember this, is that he pronounced it "SAY-kra-ment", which I found amusing.
    Ok, but just because something is called a sacrament doesn't mean it is one.  A belief does not make a fact.
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    Now whether ministers such as these understand "sacraments" in the same way we do, I do not know.  
    How could they?  If they reject the Church's teachings, how can they understand the teachings in the same way as those who accept the teachings?
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    A better question might be "do you intend to confect this marriage as a sacrament in the way that the Catholic Church understands a 'sacrament', even though you reject the Roman Church's authority over the marriage contract".
    Exactly.  This must be judged based on principles and doctrine, not appearance, language or perspective.
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    I think the odd Anglican or Lutheran, at the very least, would say "yes".  Methodists and Presbyterians probably would too.

    They might say "yes, I intend a sacrament just the same as my catholic neighbors." but the reality is, if they don't believe in the Church's doctrines on 1) divorce/re-marriage, 2) contraception, 3) primary/secondary purposes of marriage, 4) raising of children, etc...then they don't have the basics for a sacramental marriage.  
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    I've never heard of any protestant who agrees with the Church on all 4 of the above.  All protestants (and orthdox too) have lax rules on divorce/re-marriage and most all say contraception is ok.  No sacrament is possible for such heretical views.
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    Their response would be more like "we do indeed have the sacraments, it's you who don't have them, because we are the One True Church, not you Latins".  I think it can be reasonably inferred that they intend to do what the Roman Church does.

    Intention does not suffice.  You must have matter (true beliefs) and form (intention).  Just because a couple *thinks* that their beliefs are true and from Apostolic times does not make them so.  Again, almost all orthodox have lax doctrines on divorce/re-marriage/contraception.  This would prevent a sacrament.
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    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #77 on: October 02, 2020, 11:38:46 AM »
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  • They might say "yes, I intend a sacrament just the same as my catholic neighbors." but the reality is, if they don't believe in the Church's doctrines on 1) divorce/re-marriage, 2) contraception, 3) primary/secondary purposes of marriage, 4) raising of children, etc...then they don't have the basics for a sacramental marriage.  
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    I've never heard of any protestant who agrees with the Church on all 4 of the above.  All protestants (and orthdox too) have lax rules on divorce/re-marriage and most all say contraception is ok.  No sacrament is possible for such heretical views.
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    While Protestant churches allow remarriage, what matters is what the couple believes at the time of the marriage.

    If the couple are open to children, and believe their OWN marriage will last, then they may very well seriously vow "until death do us part". If so, that's a valid marriage contract.

    That's true, but Protestants don't believe marriage is a sacrament (if they believe in sacraments at all), so they can't bestow what they don't believe in.  (This presumes that both protestants were validly baptized).
    Many protestants do believe marriage is a sacrament.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #78 on: October 02, 2020, 12:01:32 PM »
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  • Quote
    While Protestant churches allow remarriage, what matters is what the couple believes at the time of the marriage.
    You are missing the point.  The Church defines what a marriage is.  She lays out the doctrines that MUST be believed, or else there is no sacrament.  99.99% (maybe 100%) of protestants fail to believe and follow church doctrine on the following areas:
    1.  Divorce and remarriage is not allowed...even for the protestant-error of adultery.
    2.  Contraception is never allowed, for any reason.
    3.  Primary end of marriage = children.  Secondary ends = love, mutual temporal aid, etc
    4.  One must raise children as Catholic, to believe all doctrines of the Church.
    5.  Might be a few more...
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    The above are non-negotiables to a sacramental marriage.  If the couple don't know, or don't believe in the above, then they can't have a sacrament, by definition.
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    If the couple are open to children, and believe their OWN marriage will last, then they may very well seriously vow "until death do us part". If so, that's a valid marriage contract.

    These are requirements for a NATURAL marriage, for the natural law.  A sacramental marriage requires one to believe/know of Church Doctrine.
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    Many protestants do believe marriage is a sacrament.

    But they have an erroneous idea of what a sacrament is, or what the Catholic Faith requires to be believed, or they want to make up their own definition of what 'sacrament' means.  This doesn't work.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #79 on: October 02, 2020, 12:11:20 PM »
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  • These are requirements for a NATURAL marriage, for the natural law.  A sacramental marriage requires one to believe/know of Church Doctrine.

    No, they need to believe certain parts of doctrine at the time of the marriage.

    Let's say two Catholics are getting married. One of them believes in divorce in general but not for their own marriage, which they believe will last until death.

    That's a valid  marriage contract and a sacramental marriage.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #80 on: October 02, 2020, 12:20:13 PM »
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  • Quote
    No, they need to believe certain parts of doctrine at the time of the marriage.
    Agree.  They need to understand/believe, 100% correctly, all doctrine related to the Church's definition of marriage.  The 4 things I listed (+ maybe a few more).
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    Let's say two Catholics are getting married. One of them believes in divorce in general but not for their own marriage, which they believe will last until death.

    No, that's debatable.  If someone believes in divorce, then they are a heretic and are contrary to Church teaching.  That wouldn't be a sacramental marriage, imo.
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    Believing that your personal marriage "will last" is not the same thing as believing, doctrinally, that the Christ/Church say marriages "have to" last, under penalty of grave sin, the violation of your marriage vows, and eternal damnation.
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    Thinking that "I believe i've found the right one and our marriage will last" is a sentimental ideal.  Thinking that "I am marrying this person and I MUST be true to them, and MAKE it work, as I am vowing before God", is a doctrinal principle.  Catholics can have both thoughts, but the latter one is required.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #81 on: October 02, 2020, 12:30:34 PM »
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  • Agree.  They need to understand/believe, 100% correctly, all doctrine related to the Church's definition of marriage.  The 4 things I listed (+ maybe a few more).
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    No, that's debatable.  If someone believes in divorce, then they are a heretic and are contrary to Church teaching.  That wouldn't be a sacramental marriage, imo.
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    Believing that your personal marriage "will last" is not the same thing as believing, doctrinally, that the Christ/Church say marriages "have to" last, under penalty of grave sin, the violation of your marriage vows, and eternal damnation.
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    Thinking that "I believe i've found the right one and our marriage will last" is a sentimental ideal.  Thinking that "I am marrying this person and I MUST be true to them, and MAKE it work, as I am vowing before God", is a doctrinal principle.  Catholics can have both thoughts, but the latter one is required.
    The fact that the Petrine and Pauline privileges only apply to marriages involving the unbaptised would suggest that any marriage between two baptised people is sacramental, even those between heretics. 

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
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    It is certain, therefore, that marriage contracted between baptized persons is a sacrament, even the so-called mixed marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, provided the non-Catholic has been validly baptized. It is equally certain that marriage between unbaptized persons is not a sacrament in the strict sense of the word.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #82 on: October 02, 2020, 12:49:05 PM »
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  • Thinking that "I believe i've found the right one and our marriage will last" is a sentimental ideal.  Thinking that "I am marrying this person and I MUST be true to them, and MAKE it work, as I am vowing before God", is a doctrinal principle.  Catholics can have both thoughts, but the latter one is required.

    If the couple believes they are entering what contemporary culture calls a "trial marriage", that's one thing.

    But if they believe they have "found the one" and are not entering a "trial marriage", they can have sufficient intent for a valid marriage (assuming openness to children).

    They don't need to believe that all marriages have to last. For marriage consent, they need to intend their own marriage to last.

    A valid marriage between two baptized persons is sacramental. This is even stated in the 1917 code of canon law (1012.2). Between baptized persons it is not possible to contract a valid, non-sacramental marriage. Even a natural marriage between non-baptized persons becomes sacramental marriage when both are baptized.

    I don't think they even need to believe marriage is a sacrament.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #83 on: October 02, 2020, 02:04:56 PM »
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  • Quote
    It is certain, therefore, that marriage contracted between baptized persons is a sacrament, even the so-called mixed marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, provided the non-Catholic has been validly baptized.

    1.  Assuming they were married in the Church.
    2.  Assuming the baptized non-catholic was properly instructed and believed in marriage doctrines.
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    Even the V2 canon lawyer I quoted said that canon law requires proper instruction and intention from the non-catholic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #84 on: October 02, 2020, 02:14:20 PM »
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    But if they believe they have "found the one" and are not entering a "trial marriage", they can have sufficient intent for a valid marriage (assuming openness to children).
    Maybe.  They have to have the proper, orthodox, catholic understanding/acceptance of the 4-5 doctrines I listed. 
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    They don't need to believe that all marriages have to last. For marriage consent, they need to intend their own marriage to last.
    This is too subjective.  They need to believe the Divine command in Genesis:  "Til death due us part".  And they need to believe that this applies to ALL valid marriages, because this is church doctrine.  Believing that a truth only applies to you personally, is not believing in the truth at all.  That's called subjectivism - "It's true for me, but may not be true for you."  Nonsense!  God's truths apply to all men, at all times, for all time.  Like gravity and death.
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    A valid marriage between two baptized persons is sacramental. This is even stated in the 1917 code of canon law (1012.2).

    Right, but there are additional canons which deal with baptized, non-catholics.
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    Between baptized persons it is not possible to contract a valid, non-sacramental marriage.
    Yes it is.  Sacraments are only for those who accept Church teachings.  If a baptized person does not accept marriage doctrine, then they have no right to God's marriage graces.
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    Even a natural marriage between non-baptized persons becomes sacramental marriage when both are baptized.
    If they understand/agree with the Church's marriage doctrines.


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    I don't think they even need to believe marriage is a sacrament.

    Ridiculous.  So someone can receive a sacrament without believing such a sacrament even exists?  Makes no sense.  Canon law is clear on the conditions.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #85 on: October 03, 2020, 04:53:53 PM »
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  • This is too subjective.  They need to believe the Divine command in Genesis:  "Til death due us part".  And they need to believe that this applies to ALL valid marriages, because this is church doctrine.  Believing that a truth only applies to you personally, is not believing in the truth at all.  That's called subjectivism - "It's true for me, but may not be true for you."  Nonsense!  God's truths apply to all men, at all times, for all time.  Like gravity and death.

    You are overstating the minimum requirements for a valid marriage contract. The contract is between one man and one woman, and its validity depends on what they believe/accept about their own marriage, not what they may or may not believe about other couples. And thus, it is possible for Protestants to have valid marriages despite otherwise accepting divorce.

    You're right on many topics, Pax. On this one, you are wrong. Even if you think you're arguing against "subjectivism".


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #86 on: October 03, 2020, 05:35:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    You are overstating the minimum requirements for a valid marriage contract. The contract is between one man and one woman, and its validity depends on what they believe/accept about their own marriage, not what they may or may not believe about other couples. And thus, it is possible for Protestants to have valid marriages despite otherwise accepting divorce.

    There are different minimum requirements for a natural law marriage (i.e. a valid contract) vs a Catholic, sacramental marriage (a valid contract + a sacrament).  You are conflating the "natural law minimums" with the higher, doctrinally more strict, catholic sacramental necessities.  Did you read the canon law article?  He lays it all out.
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    Pagans, Muslims, Jҽωs and Protestants can have natural law marriages, no problem.  These can be quite pleasing to God.  They can provide much actual grace and those who take their natural law marriages seriously can be led to the Church, by following their state in life.
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    But it's quite another level, spiritually speaking, to have the gift of a sacramental marriage.  Unless the individuals are baptized and promise to follow Church teaching and admit to Her authority, only then is a sacramental marriage possible.  Protestants cannot have a sacramental marriage, even if both are baptized, because they do not and will not submit to the Church, nor all Her marriage doctrines.
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    You're arguing that a non-catholic can have access to catholic sacraments.  This is totally wrong.  I don't know where you got this idea??

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #87 on: October 03, 2020, 10:58:34 PM »
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  • Did you read the canon law article?  He lays it all out.

    You mean the text which restates 1917 CJC can. 1012: "there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament"?

    You're arguing that a non-catholic can have access to catholic sacraments.  This is totally wrong.  I don't know where you got this idea??

    The Orthodox are non-Catholic and have sacraments.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #88 on: October 04, 2020, 11:06:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    You mean the text which restates 1917 CJC can. 1012: "there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament"?

    You can't read 1 canon in isolation from the entire canon law section on matrimony.  That's out of context.  Canon law goes on to define what a "valid matrimonial contract" is, and this has separate requirements, which if not followed, means the marriage isn't valid.
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    To show the absurdity of your too-general understanding of the above canon, i'll give you an example:
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    Two baptized, practicing catholics get married by a justice-of-the-peace.  Is this a valid marriage?  No.  Thus, it's not a sacrament.  Would it be a valid natural law marriage?  For protestants, pagans, muslims, or Jҽωs -- yes, because they aren't bound by church canon law, being they aren't catholic.
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    So if 2 baptized protestants get married by a justice-of-the-peace, is that a sacrament?  Of course not!  Canon law is not meant to apply to non-catholics or their situations.  You can only have a sacrament through the Catholic Church...if the couple gets married under the church's laws.  Protestants aren't under the church, so they cannot have a sacrament.
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    All sacramental marriages are valid natural-law marriages...and valid catholic marriages.
    Not all valid natural-law marriages are sacramental.
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    When canon law speaks of "valid" they are speaking of sacramental validity (not natural law validity), because canon law is dealing with catholic ceremonies.  But when speaking of natural law marriages and validity, canon law doesn't address this, because it is only dealing with catholic marriages.  You can't apply canon law to non-catholic ceremonies/marriages and expect it to make sense.  That's not its purpose.

    Offline Stanley N

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #89 on: October 04, 2020, 07:36:44 PM »
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  • When canon law speaks of "valid" they are speaking of sacramental validity (not natural law validity), because canon law is dealing with catholic ceremonies.  But when speaking of natural law marriages and validity, canon law doesn't address this, because it is only dealing with catholic marriages.  You can't apply canon law to non-catholic ceremonies/marriages and expect it to make sense.  That's not its purpose.

    You might be right if we were talking about Catholic ceremonies specific to Catholics in canon law.

    That's not the case. We're talking about Catholic doctrine that happens to be included in canon law.

    The doctrine is clear.  ""there can be no valid matrimonial contract between baptized persons which is not also necessarily a sacrament".



     

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