Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 2061 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2020, 06:47:28 AM »
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    How does being a convert enter into it?
    I was trying to highlight the case of a catholic marrying a non-Catholic outside of the Church.  In that case, there is no sacramental marriage, though there is a natural law marriage.  If the non-Catholic converts, then they would be obligated to get it blessed by the Church.
    .
    If you have 2 non-catholics get a natural marriage, but one converts to the Faith, while the other is anti-Catholic and harsh towards the Faith, the convert could get "re-married" to a catholic.  It's called the Pauline Privilege, as it apparently was supported by St Paul, during the early days.  My explanation is simplistic, but this is what I've been told.

    Offline Aristotl

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #46 on: July 17, 2020, 06:52:59 AM »
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  • This is whwhat I was taught, too.
    Me too and that was 1965.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #47 on: July 17, 2020, 06:55:31 AM »
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    Many, or most, cases today would fall under the conditions of Canon 1098 of the 1917 Code, when the authorized pastors and ordinaries, or a delegate of either, prescribed by Canon's 1095 and 1096 cannot be had without great inconvenience, and it may prudently be foreseen that this will last for a month.   As long as there are no diriment impediments, all that matters for a marriage to be valid under the conditions of c. 1098 is the fact that the conditions of c.1098 truly exist when and where the marriage takes place.  Under such conditions, mixed marriages between a baptized Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic are valid, even if in bad faith they are married by a civil official or non-Catholic minister in a non-Catholic ceremony.
    Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
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    Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #48 on: July 17, 2020, 07:00:54 AM »
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    So is this to say that, if a pastor or ordinary cannot be seen for a month, the dispensation from canonical form, and permission for a Catholic to marry a baptized non-Catholic, basically "issues itself"?
    I've never heard this.  I've only heard that a CATHOLIC COUPLE could marry themselves, if after 30 days a suitable pastor/ordinary cannot be found.  This is the canon law that Trads use to have supplied jurisdiction for marriages, as there aren't any orthodox pastors/ordinaries in existence.
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    I don't think the dispensation to marry a non-Catholic is given out this freely, especially in the 1917 code.  (I searched your code reference and couldn't find it).  There's also the other distinction to make between a BAPTIZED non-Catholic (who is technically an apostate catholic), and an unbaptized non-Catholic.  Different rules for different situations.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #49 on: July 17, 2020, 07:05:17 AM »
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    These must be proven and verified, but I was taught they are all pre-Vatican 2 annulment grounds.
    Perhaps Pax can corroborate.
    I'm not an expert on this area at all, but it would stand to reason that if a person lied about a grave matter/circumstance, that it would be grounds for an annulment.  Mental issues, extreme violence, alcoholism/drug addiction...all these would make one question the ability of the person to fulfill the marriage duties, so hiding such personality defects would be a potential contractual impairment. 


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #50 on: July 17, 2020, 08:12:54 AM »
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  • Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
    .
    Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).
    I don't mean to question your traditionalist bona fides, but some of this just doesn't sound right --- "valid from a human promise aspect", "God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows" --- God does not bless people for sin.  It's not "slightly better than cohabitating", it is cohabitating.

    Here is how I have always understood it:

    * Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
    * Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid
    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
    * Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
    * Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
    * Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
    * Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental
    * Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)

    If any of this is incorrect, please show me how.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #51 on: July 17, 2020, 10:14:08 AM »
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    * Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
    * Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid
    Agree so far.
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    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
    Assuming a 'non-Catholic christian' = baptized?  If so, it would be a valid marriage, but can't be a sacrament because the non-Catholic isn't in the state of grace, being (essentially) an apostate catholic.  The Church can bless a marriage as valid, even if the marriage isn't sacramental.  That's my understanding.  This is why you have to get permission for mixed marriages...because the Church recognizes the loss of grace that such a marriage has, so She wants to discourage it from being normal.
    .
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    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
    * Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
    * Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
    If by 'canonical form' you mean marriage by a priest/bishop, then I agree.
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    * Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
    It would be a valid, natural marriage.  Sacramental marriages can only occur when 2 baptized, practicing Catholics, in the state of grace, get married in the Church.
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    * Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental
    Agree.
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    * Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)
    Agree.
    .

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #52 on: July 17, 2020, 06:51:00 PM »
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    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage
    Assuming a 'non-Catholic christian' = baptized?  If so, it would be a valid marriage, but can't be a sacrament because the non-Catholic isn't in the state of grace, being (essentially) an apostate catholic.  The Church can bless a marriage as valid, even if the marriage isn't sacramental.  That's my understanding.  This is why you have to get permission for mixed marriages...because the Church recognizes the loss of grace that such a marriage has, so She wants to discourage it from being normal.

    Never heard this before.  I hate to be this way, but do you have a source?  I didn't know we made judgments about non-Catholic Christians being in the state of grace or not.  Curiously enough, when I first became a Catholic, I just took it for granted that this was why non-Catholic Christians couldn't receive communion --- we think they're all in mortal sin (at least to objective outward appearances).  Was I on the right track (at least from a traditionalist understanding)?

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    Quote
    * Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
    * Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental
    * Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid
    If by 'canonical form' you mean marriage by a priest/bishop, then I agree.

    I am referring to following the procedures prescribed by the Church for a Catholic getting married.

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    * Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage
    It would be a valid, natural marriage.  Sacramental marriages can only occur when 2 baptized, practicing Catholics, in the state of grace, get married in the Church.

    Again, see above.  I didn't know we ever made such judgments, even back in pre-V2 days.  (I know the post-V2 regime sure-as-shootin' doesn't make a judgment like that, perish the thought, horrors!)


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #53 on: July 17, 2020, 10:11:21 PM »
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  • Not clear on what you mean by this.  Are you referring to women who are attractive, who have found someone to marry, and don't want to wait a month?

    Yes, sure. But not only women. Men too.

    You were asking

    Quote from: SimpleMan
    why in the heck is it so important for people to be able to marry within the space of a month?

    and I was commenting on your remark

    Quote from: SimpleMan
    that lady whose beauty is not visible to the outward observer, the man who doesn't have the social graces to attract a mate

    You said that in order to suggest that some people should wait long or not marry at all:

    Quote from: SimpleMan
    Our Blessed Lord wills that some people have to wait a long time until they can find someone to marry.  He wills that some people not marry at all

    True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)

    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #54 on: July 17, 2020, 11:35:54 PM »
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  • True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
    Fair enough.  I suppose I just don't understand why the Church has a law allowing people to marry within a month, if they are otherwise going to be kept waiting through no fault of their own, when other people have to wait a long time to marry, possibly even half a lifetime, possibly never at all, through no fault of their own?  Why not say "you'll get married when we can get to it, nobody has to get married, if it is difficult for you to wait until we can accommodate you, then just consider that this is your cross to bear in the here and now, many people have it far worse".

    But at the end of the day, the Church's law is what it is.  Not to make a mountain of a molehill, it just seems like kind of a double standard.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #55 on: July 18, 2020, 12:04:20 AM »
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  • True! And consequently, Our Lord wills that others don't have to wait long to marry. And Church Law provides that it's possible within a month.
    If Church Law provide that it's possible to marry within a month, then why does the sspx not marry with less than a 3 month engagement?  They insist that the bans be read that long from the pulpit, and also that the couple rdceive marriage "instruction" from the marrying priest.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #56 on: July 18, 2020, 08:46:04 AM »
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    I suppose I just don't understand why the Church has a law allowing people to marry within a month
    I don’t think it’s that simple.  I looked up the canons that Principio mentioned and they had nothing to do with any month time period.  So we would all need to read the actual code in context to get more details.
    .
    I could see the only exception of 1 month being applicable to the following scenarios:  1) the couple lives in an anti-catholic country and normal, diocesan churches don’t exist, or are in hiding for persecution, or are spread out and priests aren’t available often (ƈhıną, Middle East).  2) same issues as above due to war, or other disasters, 3) the couple is on some remote island or mountain place where the church/priest is not close (ie in the Bible Belt), and maybe the couple can’t travel due to family sickness or some other reason.  So they can get married, to avoid the occasion of sin, and then find a priest to get blessed later. 
    .
    In all other cases, the couple is obligated to present themselves before a diocesan priest (or Trad priest) and the normal preparations, classes and such are required.  The only reason the priest/Church makes a couple wait is so She/priest can provide classes and to be a witness that the couple is aware of the sacramental obligations and there is no impediment.  But in crisis situations, the couple vowing before God suffices.  

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #57 on: July 18, 2020, 11:05:55 AM »
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  • I don’t think it’s that simple.  I looked up the canons that Principio mentioned and they had nothing to do with any month time period.  So we would all need to read the actual code in context to get more details.
    .
    I could see the only exception of 1 month being applicable to the following scenarios:  1) the couple lives in an anti-catholic country and normal, diocesan churches don’t exist, or are in hiding for persecution, or are spread out and priests aren’t available often (ƈhıną, Middle East).  2) same issues as above due to war, or other disasters, 3) the couple is on some remote island or mountain place where the church/priest is not close (ie in the Bible Belt), and maybe the couple can’t travel due to family sickness or some other reason.  So they can get married, to avoid the occasion of sin, and then find a priest to get blessed later.
    .
    In all other cases, the couple is obligated to present themselves before a diocesan priest (or Trad priest) and the normal preparations, classes and such are required.  The only reason the priest/Church makes a couple wait is so She/priest can provide classes and to be a witness that the couple is aware of the sacramental obligations and there is no impediment.  But in crisis situations, the couple vowing before God suffices.  
    Even if it does exist in Canon Law, "the crisis in the Church" means we throw out canon law!  🙄 (tongue in cheek)

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #58 on: July 18, 2020, 11:12:33 AM »
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  • That’s retarded logic.  No one has the authority to disregard canon law, if they want to save their soul.  That’s why Trad clerics abide by the 1917 code 99% of that time.  There’s certain cases where it doesn’t apply but most codes are still applicable.  

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
    « Reply #59 on: July 18, 2020, 11:23:04 AM »
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  • That’s retarded logic.  No one has the authority to disregard canon law, if they want to save their soul.  That’s why Trad clerics abide by the 1917 code 99% of that time.  There’s certain cases where it doesn’t apply but most codes are still applicable.  
    I was being facetious.
    The "crisis in the church" has been used on this website to approve all sorts of illegalities.
    Fr. Pfeiffer has thrown out canon law, and even some basic catechism for that matter.
    B. Williamson has ignored canon law regarding pervert priests.
    The phrase is used far to liberally among resistance and independent groups.


     

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