Author Topic: the desire thereof (Read 17761 times)

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #45 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:33:25 AM »

I apologise. No I am not insane, although you guys could drive someone to it!

I confused you with the other one of you guys who said:

I guess we must have missed all the dogmatic teachings you have to back up your heresies.

Gregory I · « **Reply #46 on:** January 14, 2012, 02:39:23 AM »

Lol. Ok.

I will take criticism if you can bring any to what I said. Let's talk about it. BUt, you can drop it if you want.

I sympathize with Augustinian, the other "one." I do not agree with everything he says though.

And Vice versa.

Nishant · « **Reply #47 on:** January 14, 2012, 03:03:07 AM »

Augustinian,

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That table of theological notes comes from a random 50's priest. That doesn't make it the teaching of the Church.

It comes from a theology manual. That gives it more weight than either one of our opinions here.

Quote

Besides, the issue here isn't whether it's a regular mortal sin to deny Baptism of Desire (and of course it's far from a sin), it's whether or not the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire, making BoD heretical to deny.

Besides, even if it were up to three or four grades lower than "Sent.fidei prox", it would still be mortally sinful to deny. In Fr.Feeney's case, it went to the level of the sin of schism.

Quote

Being unanimous or nearly unanimous since

The issue again is that it is your word against theirs. Which has more weight? All the Councils you cite were known to them as well.

Gregory, I'm rather confused as to what your opinion is. It seemed to have started out in support of Baptism of Desire, and then evolved to a complete relapse into Fr.Feeney's doctrine.

As for Pope St.Gregory, if he did make it dogmatic, then St.Alphonsus was a heretic. The same for Florence. You will never find a Saint, especially a theologian, still less a Doctor, who holds a position the Church has already condemned.

In fact, isn't that the basis for sedevacantism? Using sedevacantist logic, if the Church had already condemned it, then Alphonsus wasn't a Saint, and therefore the Church that beatified him wasn't the Catholic Church. Absurd, right? But there you have it.

What then was he talking about? Firstly, that baptism contains the merits of Christ's blood which washes away our sins, and in which the Spirit of God is bestowed upon the faithful soul.

As to martyrdom, you have it backward. As a Latin Father, I think it may have been Saint Augustine or Ambrose said, "Martyrdom has all the sacramental virtue of baptism". That is the basis of baptism by blood. So there is no separation, and martyrdom also possesses the fruits of the sacrament.

Your interpretation of Trent is also mistaken. In the justified, nothing at all is lacking unto eternal life and it is heresy to say otherwise. Again, the analogy is perfect contrition and penance. True contrition, though immediately efficacious, includes the resolve to go to confession as soon as this is possible. Obviously, it doesn't apply if approach to the sacrament is physically or morally impossible.

Your syllogism is an unfortunate oversimplification. What if God wills to save men in a land where the Gospel has never been preached and the Church never established through an interior enlightenment of Himself? Would anyone dare say He was bound in any way to reveal His hidden ways to man? No, He is not and it is unlawful for us to inquire into the knowledge of those things the good God wishes to keep to Himself.

Consider the case of a native American during the Middle Ages who was open to grace, sought the truth and observed the natural law. As a matter of fact, such a person would have died not outside the Church but rather in the friendship of God, and united to the soul of the Church, if he fulfilled the conditions Bl.Pope Pius IX laid out one and a half centuries ago.

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There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Thomas Kempis rightly says,

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My child, beware of discussing high matters and God's hidden judgments ... Such things often breed strife and useless contentions. They nourish pride and vainglory, whence arise envy and quarrels ... A desire to know and pry into such matters brings forth no fruit.

and

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"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God.

Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains 'we shall see God as He is' (1 John 3.2), we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united.

But as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" (Eph. 4.5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.

Gregory I · « **Reply #48 on:** January 14, 2012, 10:33:43 AM »

Nishant, BOD is admittedly a position I have vaccilated on.

THe reason I seem to have changed my mind is that the only thing convincing me it was legitimate was logically destroyed. I read an article saying we need to believe the common consent of theologians. It then lists 27 theologians who taught BOD. Well, hang on a second! Its not enough to believe a general opinion of a certain ERA, it has to be the CONSTANT and UNANIMOUS teaching of theologians.

Nishant, I hope I can have a good conversation about this with you, and I would really like for you to respond to my other thread when you have the time.

FIRSTLY, what are we arguing here? BOD or whether Trent teaches it?

Trent does not teach it for reasons already given. It teaches the necessity of a proper disposition and baptism itself WITHOUT which one cannot be saved.

Secondly, it is not the error of feeneyism I believe. I believe Fr. Feeney taught much good, but I think he got it wrong in his understanding of Justification. No one can say that a person who dies justified will not go to heaven. Yet, this is what he taught.

I believe in the dogmas of the church AS THEY ARE STATED. No one can be justified apart from water baptism. I believe this is absolute, and that The Fathers of the Church unanimously held this position, The Ecuмenical councils teach it, as well as the Popes in their private magisterium.

Baptism of Desire did not become a serious notion until after the protestant reformation.

IN fact, I have discovered that the Part of the Catechism of Trent which implies BOD is badly translated:

LATIN from the 1669 Roman Catechism (note that this is not the Original text, but the oldest I have been able to find - scans viewable at the bottom of this post):

"...qui rationis usu praediti sint, Baptismi suscipiendi propositum, atque consilium, & male actae vitae poenitentia satis futura sit ad gratiam, & iustitiam, si repentinus aliquis casus impediat, quominus salutari aqua ablui possint."

"The original Latin can easily be and should be translated (in order to preserve the coherence of dogma) to say that if some impediment, obstruction, snare or difficulty (impediat) should be imposed, which holds (possint) a person back from receiving the sacrament then the intention and determination to receive the sacrament and their repentance of sins will avail them to grace and righteousness or justice. This does not explicitly teach baptism of desire, but is perfectly in line with the Catholic position, which states that God will get the sacrament to those whom He deems truly worthy. It teaches that the impediment may be somehow overcome. The subsequent English translation, however, takes the liberty to change the words into something that they never explicitly said."

COMMON ENGLISH TRANSLATION: "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Note the addition of the word "impossible". This is a gratuitous and heretical choice on behalf of the translator, and is not a translation at all, but a paraphrasing which changes the sense of the text.

SO even the Catechism of Trent does not necessarily teach BOD as others insist it does. It teaches that if a person is impeded from receiving the sacrament, we must believe that their intention and disposition will avail them to grace and righteousness. The proper understanding of HOW THAT WORKS is laid out by the angelic doctor when he says that those who are sincere in their desire will basically receive what they ask for.

See, the WHOLE PROBLEM with BOD is that it implies that God needs to create a contingency plan.

False.

GOD has willed before the foundation of the world whom he will save. He has unconditionally chosen to elect some to righteousness. Would God will the salvation of the elect from all eternity in such a way that he OPPOSES his own decrees?!

Never! There is no contradiction in God, and his commandments are absolute. He knows how to bring the sacrament to those who are desirous of it:

FOR GOD DOES NOT COMMAND IMPOSSIBILITY.

Gregory I · « **Reply #49 on:** January 14, 2012, 10:41:56 AM »

Okay NIshant, your opinon where you state:

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Consider the case of a native American during the Middle Ages who was open to grace, sought the truth and observed the natural law. As a matter of fact, such a person would have died not outside the Church but rather in the friendship of God, and united to the soul of the Church, if he fulfilled the conditions Bl.Pope Pius IX laid out one and a half centuries ago.

Is DIRECTLY contradicted by Pope Leo XIII.

Pope Leo XIII, Quarto Abeunte Saeculo #1 (+1902):

“By his (Christopher Columbus’) toil another world emerged from the unsearched bosom of the ocean: hundreds of thousands of mortals have, from a state of blindness been raised to the common level of the human race, reclaimed from savagery to gentleness and humanity; and, greatest of all, by the acquisition of those blessings of which Jesus Christ is the author, they have been recalled from destruction to eternal life.”

Remember, GOd is not blind. If any do not have the gospel, it is due to the hardness of their hearts and their bad will.

What do the scriptures say?

2 Corinthians 4:3: “And if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost, in whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.”

That is the biblical notion of invincible ignorance: God, in his sovereignty has hid the gospel from those who are of bad will. They would never convert anyway, so they don't get the gospel.

Put another way: GOD does not want to save those who never hear the gospel.

I agree with Thomas a Kempis, except that we CAN know the dogmatic teaching of the church and the CONSTANT and universal teaching of her magisterium, which are in perfect harmony and DO NOT contradict one another.

Augustinian · « **Reply #50 on:** January 14, 2012, 10:45:35 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Sadly, you are missing plenty.

I am calling you on this Aug. Quote me - show any heresies I have uttered.

Quote

Yes, I just read some of the following material excepted from their site which I DO NOT AGREE WITH:

Beware: Groups and Individuals who teach Heresy

The CMRI – a group which believes in salvation outside the Church

The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) - a complete file

The SSPV – a group which believes in salvation outside the Church

Giardina, Fr. Leonard of Christ the King Abbey – believes in salvation outside the Church

McKenna, Bishop tells us that baptism of desire = Jews who reject Christ can be saved

McKenna, Bishop – An “Unanswered Letter” from him – Our Letter Debate on Baptism of Desire

Sanborn, Bishop – believes that pagans and idolaters can be saved

Vaillancourt, Fr. Kevin - believes in salvation outside the Church

Williamson, Bishop Richard of the SSPX: a complete schismatic and a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Those articles all point out the heresies of those groups and individuals. You said you disagree. You must then adhere to their same heresies, or at the very least don't believe their heresies are heresies.

In the semi-pelagian thread you also refused to condemn the Pelagian heresies.

If you hold to no heresies then tell everyone here that you condemn Pelagianism, implicit desire, implicit faith / invincible ignorance, and that you believe all pagans, Jews, Muslims, and other non-Catholics are lost. I don't think you'll be doing that though.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #51 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:08:46 AM »

Quote from: Augustinian

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Sadly, you are missing plenty.

I am calling you on this Aug. Quote me - show any heresies I have uttered.

Quote
Yes, I just read some of the following material excepted from their site which I DO NOT AGREE WITH:

Beware: Groups and Individuals who teach Heresy

The CMRI – a group which believes in salvation outside the Church

The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) - a complete file

The SSPV – a group which believes in salvation outside the Church

Giardina, Fr. Leonard of Christ the King Abbey – believes in salvation outside the Church

McKenna, Bishop tells us that baptism of desire = Jews who reject Christ can be saved

McKenna, Bishop – An “Unanswered Letter” from him – Our Letter Debate on Baptism of Desire

Sanborn, Bishop – believes that pagans and idolaters can be saved

Vaillancourt, Fr. Kevin - believes in salvation outside the Church

Williamson, Bishop Richard of the SSPX: a complete schismatic and a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Those articles all point out the heresies of those groups and individuals. You said you disagree. You must then adhere to their same heresies, or at the very least don't believe their heresies are heresies.

In the semi-pelagian thread you also refused to condemn the Pelagian heresies.

If you hold to no heresies then tell everyone here that you condemn Pelagianism, implicit desire, implicit faith / invincible ignorance, and that you believe all pagans, Jews, Muslims, and other non-Catholics are lost. I don't think you'll be doing that though.

:rolleyes:

You don't seem to comprehend that we Roman Catholics are not subject to you feeneyites! There is a principle involved here. - You have no authority to command us to recite anything.

I already told you I don’t adhere to any heresies. I am a Roman Catholic who, with integrity, recites approved creeds of the Church. You should not be so presumptuous and audacious to demand more than Holy Church herself does!

I will not recite any of the erroneous formulae that you have demanded I recite.

You have no authority to demand I recite any of your pathetic homespun formulae, even if you come up with one that is not erroneous.

You are a pitiable example of a feeneyite, puffed up with your own sense of self-importance. You have to get over your arrogance.

Gregory I · « **Reply #52 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:17:13 AM »

You are not subject to any lay person, true. But perhaps it would be wise to consider the words of scripture:

1Peter 3:15

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

Something to consider.

Is it wrong to ask a fellow Catholic to show his good faith by admitting his approval of the DOGMATIC FORMULAS of the church? I think not. Do not let pride dictate your actions, but show your good faith.

Augustinian · « **Reply #53 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:24:02 AM »

Quote from: Roman Catholic

:rolleyes:

You don't seem to comprehend that we Roman Catholics are not subject to you feeneyites! There is a principle involved here. - You have no authority to command us to recite anything.

I already told you I don’t adhere to any heresies. I am a Roman Catholic who, with integrity, recites approved creeds of the Church. You should not be so presumptuous and audacious to demand more than Holy Church herself does!

I will not recite any of the erroneous formulae that you have demanded I recite.

You have no authority to demand I recite any of your pathetic homespun formulae, even if you come up with one that is not erroneous.

You are a pitiable example of a feeneyite, puffed up with your own sense of self-importance. You have to get over your arrogance.

Yeah, that's just what I thought.

The Church requires us to believe everything she teaches infallibly, not only those things explicitly contained in the creeds. That's why the creeds say "I profess all other doctrines she professes, and anathematize all other errors she anathematizes."

The "pathetic, homespun formulae" are the teachings of the Council of Carthage, the Council of Lyons, the Council of Florence, and the Council of Trent. You are a blasphemer to call their dogmatic teachings "pathetic".

You don't seem to comprehend that Catholics are obliged to clarify their beliefs if silence or evasion would constitute an implicit denial of the faith or give scandal to your neighbor.

1325 §1: "The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the
circuмstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise
implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion,
an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor."

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #54 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:38:02 AM »

Quote from: Gregory I

You are not subject to any lay person, true. But perhaps it would be wise to consider the words of scripture:

1Peter 3:15

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

Something to consider.

Is it wrong to ask a fellow Catholic to show his good faith by admitting his approval of the DOGMATIC FORMULAS of the church? I think not. Do not let pride dictate your actions, but show your good faith.

Pride does not come into it. I am a staunch Catholic and have principles. I gave you an answer.

It is you feenyites/feeney-types/semi-feeneyites who are the ones that are (at least) in error.

I have shown good faith. I have also never lapsed into heresy, so there is no need for Aug or you to start composing your own homemade formulae of renunciation of errors, and then demand I recite them. lol. Also no need to pluck passages from the Bible that you think are applicable.

Stop taking your yourselves too seriously - you have a lot to learn!

Gregory I · « **Reply #55 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:39:50 AM »

So, proving to others that you do not hold to an heretical understanding of a dogma is not important to you?

Is that a Catholic attitude? What would Mary say?

Augustinian · « **Reply #56 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:41:47 AM »

1325 §1: "The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the
circuмstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise
implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion,
an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor."

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #57 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:42:04 AM »

Quote from: Augustinian

Quote from: Roman Catholic

:rolleyes:

You don't seem to comprehend that we Roman Catholics are not subject to you feeneyites! There is a principle involved here. - You have no authority to command us to recite anything.

I already told you I don’t adhere to any heresies. I am a Roman Catholic who, with integrity, recites approved creeds of the Church. You should not be so presumptuous and audacious to demand more than Holy Church herself does!

I will not recite any of the erroneous formulae that you have demanded I recite.

You have no authority to demand I recite any of your pathetic homespun formulae, even if you come up with one that is not erroneous.

You are a pitiable example of a feeneyite, puffed up with your own sense of self-importance. You have to get over your arrogance.

Yeah, that's just what I thought.

The Church requires us to believe everything she teaches infallibly, not only those things explicitly contained in the creeds. That's why the creeds say "I profess all other doctrines she professes, and anathematize all other errors she anathematizes."

The "pathetic, homespun formulae" are the teachings of the Council of Carthage, the Council of Lyons, the Council of Florence, and the Council of Trent. You are a blasphemer to call their dogmatic teachings "pathetic".

You don't seem to comprehend that Catholics are obliged to clarify their beliefs if silence or evasion would constitute an implicit denial of the faith or give scandal to your neighbor.

1325 §1: "The faithful are bound to profess their faith openly whenever under the
circuмstances silence, evasion, or their manner of acting would otherwise
implicitly amount to a denial of the faith, or would involve contempt of religion,
an offense to God, or scandal to the neighbor."

Yawn and :rolleyes:

I am not even going to dignify your bs with any more replies.

You feeney-whatevers are the ones who are in error.

Gregory I · « **Reply #58 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:45:27 AM »

The assertion of an opinion does not constitute a fact. If a person believes something he needs more than just his emotions to do the thinking for him. He needs his intellect and will to take over.

I am sorry that you do not find it necessary to demonstrate your orthodoxy when it seems it might be questionable on several issues.

BUT, I have no right to make demands of you, acknowledged.

Very well. May God look and judge.

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #59 on:** January 14, 2012, 11:56:36 AM »

Quote from: Gregory I

The assertion of an opinion does not constitute a fact. If a person believes something he needs more than just his emotions to do the thinking for him. He needs his intellect and will to take over.

I am sorry that you do not find it necessary to demonstrate your orthodoxy when it seems it might be questionable on several issues.

BUT, I have no right to make demands of you, acknowledged.

Very well. May God look and judge.

The point is that it only seems questionable to you dudes, due to errors you hold or rashness, or both.

You have tried to set yourselves up as the judges of when and why it is necessary.

You have no justification, or authority for your presumptious demands, pressings, requests.

Settle down.