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Author Topic: the desire thereof  (Read 19216 times)

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the desire thereof
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 09:18:22 PM »
Good point...

The theologians are NOT unanimous...or we say that there are no pre-scholastic theologians...

 :scratchchin:

How about the ordinary universal magisgterium? If all the bishops of the world are simultaneously teaching a doctrine as true, a doctrine the Pope is also teaching, then we must adhere to it as the universal ordinary magisterial teaching of the church.

What about that? :scratchchin:

How about this-

God's will cannot fail. -St. Augustine.

God wills the institution of the sacraments as necessary means of salvation. Obvious.

God wills Man to partake of them. Obvious.

God chooses some to be saved, but not all. Also obvious (COT, Session 6)

Therefore, since God's will cannot fail, he wills the sacraments, and he wills some to be saved, it would seem that all who are saved are to be saved through the sacraments.

For God's will cannot fail. Even in the face of human freedom, it does not fail, for the grace of God is like a victorious delight in the soul; He makes himself beautiful to us so that we will infallibly come to him. I do not say we cannot resist him, we can, we have the ability. But no one whom he has willed to save actually conquers his will; rather, they are willingly conquered by his love and grace.

Please toss stones gently...

the desire thereof
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 09:47:50 PM »
Quote from: Gregory I
Good point...

The theologians are NOT unanimous...or we say that there are no pre-scholastic theologians...

 :scratchchin:

How about the ordinary universal magisgterium? If all the bishops of the world are simultaneously teaching a doctrine as true, a doctrine the Pope is also teaching, then we must adhere to it as the universal ordinary magisterial teaching of the church.

What about that? :scratchchin:


The Church never actually explicitly defined at the Vatican Council what the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is. We can gather from the teachings of Trent and from the Vatican Council (and from the early ecuмenical councils) that we must adhere to the unanimous teachings of the early church fathers. In the words of Pope Leo XIII, when they are unanimous it is a sure sign that those teachings come from the Apostles (Providentissimus Deus). So that gives us an indicator as to what the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium probably is.

The Church never taught that the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is "all the bishops of the world". That comes from Vatican II in Lumen Gentium.

Pope Pius XII did say (fallibly) in Humani Generis that the ordinary teachings of popes (such as encyclicals) constitutes the Ordinary Magisterium. But he was wrong. The Vatican Council said that the Ordinary Magisterium is infallible and on par with the Solemn Magisterium. But many popes have erred in their encyclicals (including the one he said this in), so those can't be part of the Magisterium.

Ironically (considering the issue at hand), Pope Pius XII also said in that same encyclical that not even theologians have the authority to interpret the deposit of faith.

Quote from: Gregory I
How about this-

God's will cannot fail. -St. Augustine.

God wills the institution of the sacraments as necessary means of salvation. Obvious.

God wills Man to partake of them. Obvious.

God chooses some to be saved, but not all. Also obvious (COT, Session 6)

Therefore, since God's will cannot fail, he wills the sacraments, and he wills some to be saved, it would seem that all who are saved are to be saved through the sacraments.

For God's will cannot fail. Even in the face of human freedom, it does not fail, for the grace of God is like a victorious delight in the soul; He makes himself beautiful to us so that we will infallibly come to him. I do not say we cannot resist him, we can, we have the ability. But no one whom he has willed to save actually conquers his will; rather, they are willingly conquered by his love and grace.

Please toss stones gently...


I don't think I disagree, but it is getting late...  :sleep:


the desire thereof
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 11:05:26 PM »
I like this one:

I think this is my favorite.

"Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews [aut] or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

the desire thereof
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 11:15:50 PM »
My favorite too. It's certainly the clearest statement made any pope on EENS. The Holy Ghost first spoke those words through St. Fulgence before reiterating them at the Council of Florence:

St Fulgence: "Hold most firmly and never doubt that not only all pagans but also all Jews and all heretics and schismatics who finish this present life outside the Catholic Church will go into eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. Hold most firmly and never doubt that any heretic or schismatic whatsoever, baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, if he will not have been gathered to the Catholic Church, no matter how many alms he may have given, even if he shed his blood for the name of Christ, can never be saved." (From the treatise To Peter on the Faith)

the desire thereof
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2012, 11:18:05 PM »
Another Augustinian theologian gets it right! Who'd have thought, right?!