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Author Topic: No more mercy left from heaven  (Read 1478 times)

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Änσnymσus

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Re: No more mercy left from heaven
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2019, 03:53:57 PM »
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    • So he withdraws the grace? Not very reassuring but if that's the case .. 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #16 on: November 04, 2019, 03:55:07 PM »
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    • Before all decision to create the world, the infinite knowledge of God presents to Him all the graces, and different series of graces, which He can prepare for each soul, along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance, and that in millions of possible combinations ... Thus, for each man in particular there are in the thought of God, limitless possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; and God will be free in choosing such a world, such a series of graces, and in determining the future history and final destiny of each soul. And this is precisely what He does when among all possible worlds, by an absolutely free act, he decides to realize the actual world with all the circuмstances of its historic evolutions, with all the graces which in fact have been and will be distributed until the end of the world, and consequently with all the elect and all the reprobate who God foresaw would be in it if de facto He created it." [The Catholic Encyclopedia Appleton, 1909, on Augustine, pg 97]

    In other words before a man is conceived, God in his infinite knowledge has already put that person through the test with millions of possible combinations and possible histories, some histories of virtue and salvation, others of crime and damnation; along with the consent or refusal which would follow in each circuмstance (of millions of possible combinations!!!) and God will be free in determining which future history and final destiny He assigns each soul. If a soul in hell was allowed to live for another 1000 years on earth he would in the end damn himself again, that is why he is in hell. It is not that God predestined his damnation, the person damned himself in the "in millions of possible combinations" .

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    Offline Flavius Petrus Sabbatius

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #17 on: November 04, 2019, 03:57:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 04, 2019, 03:48:26 PM
    God does not predestine anyone for hell or heaven, He just knows what the end will be, "for He has already seen the movie".
    Keep telling yourself that and be sure to say "God was not the sole reason why I am here" if you reach heaven. 
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #18 on: November 04, 2019, 03:58:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: Flavius Petrus Sabbatius on November 04, 2019, 03:37:52 PM
    Predestination is a Catholic teaching. 
    Not in the way you explained it:

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    You should worry more about if God has predestined you for salvation. 




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    Offline Flavius Petrus Sabbatius

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #19 on: November 04, 2019, 04:00:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 04, 2019, 03:58:42 PM
    Not in the way you explained it:



    I was in no way referring to double predestination if you had assumed that. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #20 on: November 04, 2019, 04:05:13 PM »
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    • God is a perfectly simple being.  He does not vary, as do human beings, from being just one moment and then merciful the next.  Every act of His is at the same time both perfectly just and perfectly merciful.  Flabius ignores the part about mercy, because he has none.  Flabius, you should be very afraid for your soul, since, as Our Lord taught, with whatever measure you judge others, so too will you be judged.  Show mercy, and you will be shown mercy.  Please meditate on the corollary to this.

    In any case, as I said, every act of God is both at the same time perfectly just AND perfectly merciful.  He may in fact withhold graces when He knows they will be rejected, and in this way the souls is spared the additional punishment for having rejected the grace.

    Catholic predestination, however, works within the bounds of free will.  At no point is the will fixed toward the end, and it is in fact more in line with foreknowledge than it is with any curtailment of free will ... so not the Jansenist view held by Flabius.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #21 on: November 04, 2019, 04:10:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 04, 2019, 03:53:57 PM
    So he withdraws the grace? Not very reassuring but if that's the case ..

    You need to just man up and stop wringing your hands about this.  You're excessively indulging in self pity, and you need to snap out of this.  Focus on God rather than yourself, and then you'll be at peace.  There was a saint who was tormented for years with the thought that he would end up in hell.  He snapped out of it, finally, when God gave him the light and the strength to say, "Dear God, if that is your will that I end up in hell, so be it, but in the meantime I will love you and serve you to the best of my ability."  You're way too caught up worrying about your own fate ... to the point that it's distracting you from focusing on God.  Make the resolution to focus on God regardless of your own fate, which with childlike confidence you can safely place in His hands, and your salvation will "take care of itself" as it were.  Look to the purer motivations to love God ... rather than the self-absorbed motivation of what's in it for you.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #22 on: November 04, 2019, 04:10:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Flavius Petrus Sabbatius on November 04, 2019, 03:37:52 PM
    Predestination is a Catholic teaching. God is free to predestine some to eternal glory and withhold His grace from others leaving them in their sins without consideration of foreseen merit.

    "I answer that, God does reprobate some. For it was said above (Article 1) that predestination is a part of providence. To providence, however, it belongs to permit certain defects in those things which are subject to providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 2). Thus, as men are ordained to eternal life through the providence of God, it likewise is part of that providence to permit some to fall away from that end; this is called reprobation. Thus, as predestination is a part of providence, in regard to those ordained to eternal salvation, so reprobation is a part of providence in regard to those who turn aside from that end. Hence reprobation implies not only foreknowledge, but also something more, as does providence, as was said above (Question 22, Article 1). Therefore, as predestination includes the will to confer grace and glory; so also reprobation includes the will to permit a person to fall into sin, and to impose the punishment of damnation on account of that sin." ST I, q. 23, a. 3

    "God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans ix., 22-23): "What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory" and (2 Timothy ii., 20): "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor." Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." ST I, q. 23, a. 5, ad 3
    Predestination in the sense that some souls are predestined for Heaven is Catholic teaching. However, those souls are very few, and the Church DOES NOT teach that any souls are predestined for Hell. So the matter of whether or not your souls is predestined for Heaven is not something you should worry about, you almost certainly aren't - but you still can go to Heaven. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #23 on: November 04, 2019, 04:31:02 PM »
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    • Catholic predestination is simply the fact that God will the damnation of those whom He has foreseen will deserve it.  Anything else is to effectively state that God will sin itself, and thus the Calvinistic error.  But such a knowledge and will can exist only in the mind of God, who sees all time at the same instant.  God knows that a certain soul will cause its own damnation, so then He wills the damnation that he caused of his own free will.  So long as you are alive, you are not in that category.  Catholic predestination is never a cause for despair.  So we need to stop worrying about the future, which only God knows, and take care of the present, and then the future will take care of itself.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #24 on: November 04, 2019, 04:33:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Flavius Petrus Sabbatius on November 04, 2019, 04:00:06 PM
    I was in no way referring to double predestination if you had assumed that.

    Look.  What is wrong with you, man?  We have in the OP a soul who's being tempted to despair, and what do you do?  You cite predestination in such a way as to confirm his paranoia.  "Yep, God could be withholding grace from you and abandoning you."  You might as well be giving a nudge to a person standing on a ledge contemplating whether to jump.  Are you deranged?  There's something wrong with you; you need to see a good Catholic psychologist.  There's no such things in reality as God abandoning any soul.  It's the soul that abandons God, as God wills the salvation of all.
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    Offline Flavius Petrus Sabbatius

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #25 on: November 05, 2019, 02:30:51 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on November 04, 2019, 04:10:56 PM
    Predestination in the sense that some souls are predestined for Heaven is Catholic teaching. However, those souls are very few, and the Church DOES NOT teach that any souls are predestined for Hell. So the matter of whether or not your souls is predestined for Heaven is not something you should worry about, you almost certainly aren't - but you still can go to Heaven.

    Bishop Sanborn has an excellent sermon on the Catholic teaching of predestination. He makes it clear that all of the souls in heaven were predestined and elected by God without any consideration of foreseen merits. He says it is impossible to enter heaven unless a soul has been predestined for glory. He explicitly mentions Romans ix., 15 "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy."

    Of course no souls are actively predestined for hell, but to say that a soul can enter heaven without being elected is Pelagianism.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #26 on: November 05, 2019, 06:58:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Flavius Petrus Sabbatius on November 05, 2019, 02:30:51 AM
    Bishop Sanborn has an excellent sermon on the Catholic teaching of predestination. He makes it clear that all of the souls in heaven were predestined and elected by God without any consideration of foreseen merits. He says it is impossible to enter heaven unless a soul has been predestined for glory. He explicitly mentions Romans ix., 15 "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy."

    Of course no souls are actively predestined for hell, but to say that a soul can enter heaven without being elected is Pelagianism.
    If every soul in Heaven was predestined for it, then logically every soul in Hell must have been predestined for it. 
    I'll watch the video this evening to see how Bp. Sanborn explains it but as it stands that sounds like a direct contradiction of the Church's teaching(i.e that double or negative predestination is false).
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #27 on: November 05, 2019, 08:44:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Flavius Petrus Sabbatius on November 05, 2019, 02:30:51 AM
    Bishop Sanborn has an excellent sermon on the Catholic teaching of predestination. He makes it clear that all of the souls in heaven were predestined and elected by God without any consideration of foreseen merits. He says it is impossible to enter heaven unless a soul has been predestined for glory. He explicitly mentions Romans ix., 15 "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy."

    Of course no souls are actively predestined for hell, but to say that a soul can enter heaven without being elected is Pelagianism.
    The poster misinterprets what Bp. Sanborn said, just like he misinterprets everything else he posted on the subject.  Just like he misinterpreted something into his thinking that someone said that "a soul can enter heaven without being elected". No one said that a soul can enter heaven without being elected. 
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    Änσnymσus

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    Re: No more mercy left from heaven
    « Reply #28 on: November 05, 2019, 09:07:10 AM »
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    • Quote from: Anonymous on November 04, 2019, 11:41:35 AM
    I read a passage in the Bible where it states if you repent of your ways and turn back to your own ways, there will be no more forgiveness left for you from heaven.

    Can't tell you how many times I've been back and forth with my faith.
    I guess st john vianney talks about the sins God no longer continues to pardon

    How do i escape this despair? I feel like there's no hope. Lived most of my life with the way of the world... My own stupid fault
    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve fallen.... 
    I was 17 when I pretty much committed the (at the time) the biggest sin of my life of my to feel I had fallen so far from Gods grace He wouldn’t even try to reach for me. That type of thinking led me down a path of terrible, painful choices I carry on my heart, and will Probably never stop bringing up in confession. It was only once I found out I was carrying my first Child that I was jolted by a God that I couldn’t live for myself anymore, but I had to care for the soul of my child. It was not easy... I had a few months back, before I was pregnant, gone to confession to lay everything at Christ feet. It just felt like I didn’t deserve His forgiveness. That type of thinking brought me back into a life where I looked for healing in all the wrong places. It was a hard path back to God, but slowly I made my way to the foot of the cross, and once I laid everything down in front of Him... I asked Christ to help me carry the burden... because that’s what he wants to do...
    Despair of Gods mercy comes straight from Satan. He wants you to believe that you can never reach God again because you’ve sinned to much. The only sinner that can’t be saved it the one who isn’t sorry for his sins. If you feel like you need to repeat confess sins, do it. There is no harm in it because we want to show God our humility before Him saying “I hurt you, I betrayed you. I’m sorry....”. 
    Christ wants to carry your sins, all you need to do is lay them at His feet, and he will take your hand to lead you to Heaven.
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