Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: The Church censors flat earth criticism  (Read 5858 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

The Church censors flat earth criticism
« on: October 13, 2018, 02:47:46 PM »
I am reading a book  called "Burned alive; Giordano Bruno, Galileo and the Inquisition" by Alberto Martinez. The author is strongly anti catholic and a globe believer.

In it the author makes a most remarkable statment:

"In 1620 the Index censored eleven sentences in Copernicus's book. Catholics could now read it making the required corrections. ... First the Index censored the passage in the Preface where Copernicus criticized Lactantius for not knowing mathematics and being wrong about the Earth's shape. "

Yes, you read that correctly.

The text of that censoring is available in "The Ponticial decrees against the Doctrine of the Earths movement and the Ultramontane defence of them" By Rev. William Roberts.

Found here http://www.ldolphin.org/geocentricity/Roberts.pdf

Go to page 62.  It is latin. But not hard to understand.

Here is the text:  In præfatione circa finem.—Ibi si fortasse dele omnia, usque ad verba,
hi nostri labores; et sic accommoda, coeterum hi nostri labores.

The text they are talking about can be found here:
http://www.geo.utexas.edu/courses/302d/Fall_2011/Full%20text%20-%20Nicholas%20Copernicus,%20_De%20Revolutionibus%20%28On%20the%20Revolutions%29,_%201.pdf

Here is the relevant part:

"Perhaps there will be babblers who claim to be judges of astronomy although
completely ignorant of the subject and, badly distorting some passage of Scripture
to their purpose, will dare to find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I
disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded. For it
is not unknown that Lactantius, otherwise an illustrious writer but hardly an
astronomer, speaks quite childishly about the earth's shape, when he mocks those
who declared that the earth has the form of a globe. Hence scholars need not be
surprised if any such persons will likewise ridicule me. Astronomy is written for
astronomers. To them my work"

You can see that there is nothing in it about mathematics. But the only topic is the spherical earth.
If you attack the defence of Gods creation... you deserve censorship...

So much for the Church believing in the globe in the middle ages and beyond. This is 1620 and the Church is defending the Truth.

This is a remarkable discovery and I hope my fellow flat earthers appreciate it.



Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 04:24:44 PM »
The text of that censoring is available in "The Ponticial decrees against the Doctrine of the Earths movement and the Ultramontane defence of them" By Rev. William Roberts.

Found here http://www.ldolphin.org/geocentricity/Roberts.pdf

Go to page 62.  It is latin. But not hard to understand.

Here is the text:  In præfatione circa finem.—Ibi si fortasse dele omnia, usque ad verba,
hi nostri labores; et sic accommoda, coeterum hi nostri labores.

And if you look at the text on page 62 that precedes the bit you quoted, you will see it contains the phrase  principia de situ et motu terreni globi which translates "principles concerning the position and movement of the terrestial globe."  (The context is a statement that Copernicus accepts principles concerning the position and movement of the earth that are repugnant to Sacred Scripture according to its true interpretation by the Church.)

The reason that the Congregation of the Index refers to the earth as a terrenus globus in this docuмent is because they, like all educated Catholics of the time, believed that the earth is a globe.  If they had wished to object to Copernicus believing in a spherical earth, they would have said something like  principia de situ et motu et forma terreni "principles concerning the position, movement, and shape of the earth."

There is no reason to assume that they wanted the disparaging comments regarding Lactantius removed because it was a criticism of flat earth.  That is highly unlikely since they themselves thought the earth was a sphere.  This had been taught in Catholic universities for centuries and they referred to it in this very docuмent.  Possibly they objected to the disrespectful tone Copernicus used toward a Father of the Church.


Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 02:07:41 AM »

Possibly they objected to the disrespectful tone Copernicus used toward a Father of the Church.

That's highly unlikely. The index's principle role was regarding doctrine.

Also, all the other censorship is concerning the earth and aspects concerning it.

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 11:29:24 AM »
I don't know what hismajesty's proposition is without some more context, so I cannot comment.

However, I will comment on Copernicus's letter he posted:

Copernicus shows himself to be a practitioner of the dark arts by his adoration of the mystery religion and its idea that they can make one more "godlike."

This is the central deception of the mystery religions and the lie told to Eve that they could become as gods.

Also, Copernicus quotes Ptolemy's initial proposition nearly verbatim and makes it his own. Namely, that earth must be a globe simply because he thinks a sphere is mathematically "perfect" and NOT because of any actual evidence at all. 

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2018, 11:38:27 AM »
That's highly unlikely. The index's principle role was regarding doctrine.
The docuмent itself does not give the reason for removing the reference to Lactatianus's belief in flat earth, so we are speculating. You are here implying that we can deduce the reason based on flat earth being a matter of doctrine.  In syllogism form, your argument would be:

The Index removed a passage containing a disagreement with flat earth.
The Index deals with doctrine.
The flat earth is a doctrine.
Therefore the reason for the removal of the passage is that it contains a disagreement with flat earth.

In your first post, however, you were trying to show this removal as evidence that the shape of the earth must be a matter of doctrine.  In syllogism form:

The Index removed a passage because it contained a disagreement with flat earth.
The Index deals with doctrine.
Therefore flat earth is a doctrine.

You are using the same statement as both a proposition and a conclusion, i.e. the fallacy of petitio principii or circular reasoning.  You have to assume the thing that you are trying to prove.

There is, in fact, no basis for considering this docuмent as evidence that the Congregation of the Index considered flat earth a doctrine.  It is, rather, evidence for the contrary, since they use the expression terrenus globus to refer to the earth.

You have repeatedly in other threads referred to belief in a spherical earth as a heresy.  There is no justification for doing this.  There is no magisterial teaching that says the earth is flat.  Even in the Patristic period, the only time in history when significant numbers of educated Christian authors believed the earth to be flat, none of the Fathers taught that this was a matter of faith.

On the contrary, we have the statement of St. John Damascene, himself a Church Father, writing in An Exposition of Orthodox Faith, a summary of the Faith expounded by those who went before him:  

"Further, some hold that the earth is in the form of a sphere, others that it is in that of a cone. At all events it is much smaller than the heaven, and suspended almost like a point in its midst. And it will pass away and be changed." (Book II Ch 10)  http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/33042.htm

This is, in context, a completely clear statement from a Church Father that believing in a spherical earth is compatible with orthodox faith and no flat earther here has ever shown authoritative Catholic teaching otherwise.  There is no de fide teaching and Christians are free to believe as we wish concerning the shape of the earth.