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Author Topic: The Church censors flat earth criticism  (Read 5857 times)

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Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2018, 01:27:22 PM »
"Perhaps there will be babblers who claim to be judges of astronomy although 
completely ignorant of the subject and, badly distorting some passage of Scripture 
to their purpose, will dare to find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I 
disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded. For it 
is not unknown that Lactantius, otherwise an illustrious writer but hardly an 
astronomer, speaks quite childishly about the earth's shape, when he mocks those 
who declared that the earth has the form of a globe. Hence scholars need not be 
surprised if any such persons will likewise ridicule me. Astronomy is written for 
astronomers. To them my work"

You can see that there is nothing in it about mathematics. But the only topic is the spherical earth.
If you attack the defence of Gods creation... you deserve censorship...
I think it would be more clear if you looked at the original. Here is the text according to wikisource-Latin:
Quote
Si fortasse erunt ματαιόλογοι, qui cuм omnium Mathematum ignari sint, tamen de illis indicium sibi sumunt, propter aliquem locuм scripturæ, male ad suum propositum detortum, ausi fuerint meum hoc institutum reprehendere ас insectari: illos nihil moror, adeo ut etiam illorum iudicium tanquam temerarium contemnam. Non enim obscurum est Lactantium, celebrem alioqui scriptorem, sed Mathematicuм parum, admodum pueriliter de forma terræ loqui, cuм deridet eos, qui terram globi formam habere prodiderunt. Itaque non debet mirum videri studiosis, si qui tales nos etiam ridebunt. Mathemata mathematicis scribuntur, quibus & hi nostri labores, si me non fallit opinio, videbuntur etiam Reipublicæ ecclesiasticæ conducere aliquid...

The correction says to replace this with
Quote
Coeterum hi nostri labores, si me non fallit opinio, videbuntur etiam Reipublicæ ecclesiasticæ conducere aliquid...

First you can see that the word translated "Astronomer" in your English version looks a lot like Mathematician. Perhaps that's why your anti-Catholic source referred to mathematics in this section?

Second, the overall sense of the passage is that people may falsely twist Scripture to criticize this work, and non-Astronomers should stay out of it (with Lactantius as an example). Then 75 years after Copernicus' work was published, the Index decides this passage should be edited. The Index doesn't give a specific reason, but as this was shortly after Galileo, doesn't it seem likely the reason is the claim about Scripture?

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2018, 04:31:38 PM »
And if you look at the text on page 62 that precedes the bit you quoted, you will see it contains the phrase  principia de situ et motu terreni globi which translates "principles concerning the position and movement of the terrestial globe."  (The context is a statement that Copernicus accepts principles concerning the position and movement of the earth that are repugnant to Sacred Scripture according to its true interpretation by the Church.)

The reason that the Congregation of the Index refers to the earth as a terrenus globus in this docuмent is because they, like all educated Catholics of the time, believed that the earth is a globe.  If they had wished to object to Copernicus believing in a spherical earth, they would have said something like  principia de situ et motu et forma terreni "principles concerning the position, movement, and shape of the earth."

There is no reason to assume that they wanted the disparaging comments regarding Lactantius removed because it was a criticism of flat earth.  That is highly unlikely since they themselves thought the earth was a sphere.  This had been taught in Catholic universities for centuries and they referred to it in this very docuмent.  Possibly they objected to the disrespectful tone Copernicus used toward a Father of the Church.
Just to be clear...  Your so called "context" is pretext.  The heart of what Copernicus said that was actually condemned by the Church is:

"Why Copernicus was condemned:For it is not unknown that Lactantius, otherwise an illustrious writer but hardly an astronomer, speaks quite childishly about the earth's shape, when he mocks those who declared that the earth has the form of a globe."
The Church condemned Copernicus for saying Lactantius speaks childishly about the earth's shape when Lactanctius mocks those who think the earth is a globe. This says absolutely nothing that the Church thought the earth was a globe, or recognized the earth is a globe, but that a condemnation was made against Copernicus for belittling Lactantius' position that earth is flat.  In other words, the Church condemned Copernicus because he belittled the flat earth.   
Oh, and by the way: Terrenus globus does not mean earth is a globe.  Terrenus means earthly.  And globus means "group".  Check out google translate for more information.   
https://translate.google.com/?sl=la#la/en/globus
The Douay calls earth a "bundle" or "group" because heaven and earth are joined together. Earth is in the center, heaven above and hell below, the globus cruciger so often talked about in these threads proving that heaven, hell and earth comprise the globus (group).  


Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2018, 06:33:50 PM »
Just to be clear...  Your so called "context" is pretext.  The heart of what Copernicus said that was actually condemned by the Church is:

"Why Copernicus was condemned:For it is not unknown that Lactantius, otherwise an illustrious writer but hardly an astronomer, speaks quite childishly about the earth's shape, when he mocks those who declared that the earth has the form of a globe."
The Church condemned Copernicus for saying Lactantius speaks childishly about the earth's shape when Lactanctius mocks those who think the earth is a globe. This says absolutely nothing that the Church thought the earth was a globe, or recognized the earth is a globe, but that a condemnation was made against Copernicus for belittling Lactantius' position that earth is flat.  In other words, the Church condemned Copernicus because he belittled the flat earth.  
in it
The OP quoted one sentence out of the 1620 decree giving permission to publish De Revolutionbus on condition that nine specific corrections and changes were made.  This sentence described one of the required corrections.  This decree was not a condemnation of Copernicus.

Wikipedia gives the historical background:

Quote
In March 1616, in connection with the Galileo affair, the Roman Catholic Church's Congregation of the Index issued a decree suspending De revolutionibus until it could be "corrected," on the grounds of ensuring that Copernicanism, which it described as a "false Pythagorean doctrine, altogether contrary to the Holy Scripture," would not "creep any further to the prejudice of Catholic truth."[144] The corrections consisted largely of removing or altering wording that the spoke of heliocentrism as a fact, rather than a hypothesis.[145] The corrections were made based largely on work by Ingoli.[139]

On the orders of Pope Paul V, Cardinal Robert Bellarmine gave Galileo prior notice that the decree was about to be issued, and warned him that he could not "hold or defend" the Copernican doctrine.[h] The corrections to De revolutionibus, which omitted or altered nine sentences, were issued four years later, in 1620.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus

The opening paragraph of the decree (not quoted in the OP) gives the reasoning for the earlier censure of Copernicus:  The original version of De Revolutionibus was prohibited because in it Copernicus showed that he accepted as true, not merely hypothetically, principles concerning the position and movement of the earth that were contrary to the Catholic interpretation of Sacred Scripture.  However, since there were many useful things in the book, the Index wished to give it permission for publishing with corrections for locis in quibus non ex hypothesi sed asserendo de situ et motu terræ disputat.("places in which he discusses the location and motion of the earth, not hypothetically but as an assertion")  

The Congregation, therefore, thought that, in the passage containing the reference to flat earth, Copernicus was treating his ideas as truth rather than a hypothesis.  We can see they are right in the sentences immediately preceding the mention of Lactantius: "Perhaps there will be babblers who claim to be judges of astronomy although completely ignorant of the subject and, badly distorting some passage of Scripture to their purpose, will dare to find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded."  It was not because Copernicus belittled flat earth.  On the contrary, it was for treating his theory as if it were an established truth like the earth being a sphere.

It is this same opening paragraph of the decree that uses the expression terrenus globus to refer to the earth, showing that its authors believed the earth was a sphere.

Oh, and by the way: Terrenus globus does not mean earth is a globe.  Terrenus means earthly.  And globus means "group".  Check out google translate for more information.  
https://translate.google.com/?sl=la#la/en/globus
The Douay calls earth a "bundle" or "group" because heaven and earth are joined together. Earth is in the center, heaven above and hell below, the globus cruciger so often talked about in these threads proving that heaven, hell and earth comprise the globus (group).  
The literal meaning of globus is globe, ball, or sphere.  It is occasionally used figuratively (usually in poetry) to mean a group.  The Google translate link you cited gives possible translations in order of frequency, with the back translations, also in order of frequency.  The word globus rarely means group and the concept of group is rarely expressed by globus.   In this context, any competent human translator would use "terrestrial globe" or a similar expression.

Translations of
globus


noun
globeglobus, sphaera, orbis terrarum, sphera, tellus, orbis terrae
ballpila, globus, sphaera, globulus, sphera, glomus
spheresphaera, sphera, globus, regio, provincia, area
troopturma, agmen, caterva, manus, praesidium, globus
groupclassis, corona, circulus, circlus, turba, globus


Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2018, 07:35:45 PM »
Did any of the Fathers believe the earth was flat? Since we know the Fathers are a reliable source for interpreting scripture, I am sure the vast majority of the Fathers would have held the earth to be flat if so many traditionalists today also believe in flat earth-ism.

Yes, I'm trying to assume good faith.

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2018, 07:57:03 PM »
Did any of the Fathers believe the earth was flat? Since we know the Fathers are a reliable source for interpreting scripture, I am sure the vast majority of the Fathers would have held the earth to be flat if so many traditionalists today also believe in flat earth-ism.

Yes, I'm trying to assume good faith.
Yes, most, if not all of the Church Fathers believed the earth to be flat BECAUSE their argument is, it is Scriptural.  St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, Lactanctius, Bishop Sevarian of Gabala, Cosmas, Origen, St. Augustine, and many others taught that earth is flat and stationary using Scripture.  These Fathers go to great lengths to show how this is expressed in Scripture and several argued against the pagans responsible for fantastical moving globe.  No surprise, the moving globe is a NASA and modern science promotion that caters to the moon hoax lies, evolution and atheism. We know the Church condemned Heliocentrism "all together" as heresy, so it is wrong for any Catholic to try to make a case for the globe, moving or otherwise.  But, not only is flat earth backed by tradition from a Scriptural standpoint, it is sensible and scientifically based, when the globe remains a heap of contradictions.