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Author Topic: The Church censors flat earth criticism  (Read 5847 times)

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Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2018, 08:20:05 PM »
Did any of the Fathers believe the earth was flat? Since we know the Fathers are a reliable source for interpreting scripture, I am sure the vast majority of the Fathers would have held the earth to be flat if so many traditionalists today also believe in flat earth-ism.

Yes, I'm trying to assume good faith.

Some of the Fathers believed in flat earth, but the flat earth proponents exaggerate how common it was.  For example, they misinterpret some passages as being in support of flat earth that are not actually saying that.  For another example, in the above post by happenby, she places Cosmas in her list of Fathers, but he is not one.

I think the Wikipedia list of Fathers supporting flat earth is more reliable than flat earther sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

The more useful writings of the Fathers on the subject put it in its proper perspective.  For example, this passage by St. Basil in the Hexameron presents it well:  

Those who have written about the nature of the universe have discussed at length the shape of the earth. If it be spherical or cylindrical, if it resemble a disc and is equally rounded in all parts, or if it has the forth of a winnowing basket and is hollow in the middle; all these conjectures have been suggested by cosmographers, each one upsetting that of his predecessor. It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circuмference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself while the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32019.htm

St. Basil cautions against reading meanings into Scripture about the shape of the earth, saying it is a vanity that will not lead to the edification of our souls.

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2018, 08:24:24 PM »
The OP quoted one sentence out of the 1620 decree giving permission to publish De Revolutionbus on condition that nine specific corrections and changes were made.  This sentence described one of the required corrections.  This decree was not a condemnation of Copernicus.

Making a correction is tantamount to a condemnation because it shows the Church favored the flat geocentric earth, even if She was willing to tolerate opinions on the matter.  Reading Copernicus one comes away convinced he is buried in occult lies he prefers to Christianity and tradition.  

Wikipedia gives the historical background:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus

The opening paragraph of the decree (not quoted in the OP) gives the reasoning for the earlier censure of Copernicus:  The original version of De Revolutionibus was prohibited because in it Copernicus showed that he accepted as true, not merely hypothetically, principles concerning the position and movement of the earth that were contrary to the Catholic interpretation of Sacred Scripture.  However, since there were many useful things in the book, the Index wished to give it permission for publishing with corrections for locis in quibus non ex hypothesi sed asserendo de situ et motu terræ disputat.("places in which he discusses the location and motion of the earth, not hypothetically but as an assertion")  

The Congregation, therefore, thought that, in the passage containing the reference to flat earth, Copernicus was treating his ideas as truth rather than a hypothesis.  We can see they are right in the sentences immediately preceding the mention of Lactantius: "Perhaps there will be babblers who claim to be judges of astronomy although completely ignorant of the subject and, badly distorting some passage of Scripture to their purpose, will dare to find fault with my undertaking and censure it. I disregard them even to the extent of despising their criticism as unfounded."  It was not because Copernicus belittled flat earth.  On the contrary, it was for treating his theory as if it were an established truth like the earth being a sphere.

This* shows that the Church favored the geocentric flat earth. She wasn't about to tolerate false ideas to be taught as certain when they weren't, which interestingly, the Heliocentric model has since become a certainty in most people's mind, against the recommendation of the Church. How telling. 

It is this same opening paragraph of the decree that uses the expression terrenus globus to refer to the earth, showing that its authors believed the earth was a sphere.
The literal meaning of globus is globe, ball, or sphere.  It is occasionally used figuratively (usually in poetry) to mean a group.  The Google translate link you cited gives possible translations in order of frequency, with the back translations, also in order of frequency.  The word globus rarely means group and the concept of group is rarely expressed by globus.   In this context, any competent human translator would use "terrestrial globe" or a similar expression.

Translations of
globus




noun
globeglobus, sphaera, orbis terrarum, sphera, tellus, orbis terrae
ballpila, globus, sphaera, globulus, sphera, glomus
spheresphaera, sphera, globus, regio, provincia, area
troopturma, agmen, caterva, manus, praesidium, globus
groupclassis, corona, circulus, circlus, turba, globus
Well, the subject here is what globus means within this context, not to include every single possibility listed or we'd never get anywhere. It just so happens the first meaning listed on Google translate is 'group', as shown in the link I provided, and interestingly, 'group' is the same meaning that the Douay uses.  Attempting to save a dying idea by clouding the issue with non-sequitur details and skirt the real issue in favor of what is possible all the while the Church, science, sensibility and our senses have been teaching the opposite, is pretty brazen. Earth is not a globe and the people behind the ba'al earth are pagan monsters attempting to hijack God's creation and recreate it in Satan's image, using a time honored Indoctrination identical to the Satanic mystery religions in existence since Enoch's time.  And the world today is paying BILLIONS of $$$ for them to continue the lies.  Follow the money, works every time. 


Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2018, 08:33:28 PM »
The Church did not favour flat geocentric earth.  The cosmology taught in Catholic universities, believed by Saints, and assumed in Church docuмents was spherical geocentric earth.  The evidence for this is overwhelming.  Flat earthers like happenby refuse to acknowledge this evidence.

Quote
happenby: Well, the subject here is what globus means within this context, not to include every single possibility listed or we'd never get anywhere. It just so happens the first meaning listed on Google translate is 'group', as shown in the link I provided, and interestingly, 'group' is the same meaning that the Douay uses.
You had Google translate globus without any context at all, so how could it tell us the best meaning in the passage in question?

There very well may be a place where the Douay translates globus as group, but that is no reason to think it is a good translation here.  I have looked at various books that translate that passage and they all say something like "terrestial globe".

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2018, 08:40:02 PM »
Some of the Fathers believed in flat earth, but the flat earth proponents exaggerate how common it was.  For example, they misinterpret some passages as being in support of flat earth that are not actually saying that.  For another example, in the above post by happenby, she places Cosmas in her list of Fathers, but he is not one.

I think the Wikipedia list of Fathers supporting flat earth is more reliable than flat earther sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth


The more useful writings of the Fathers on the subject put it in its proper perspective.  For example, this passage by St. Basil in the Hexameron presents it well:  

Those who have written about the nature of the universe have discussed at length the shape of the earth. If it be spherical or cylindrical, if it resemble a disc and is equally rounded in all parts, or if it has the forth of a winnowing basket and is hollow in the middle; all these conjectures have been suggested by cosmographers, each one upsetting that of his predecessor. It will not lead me to give less importance to the creation of the universe, that the servant of God, Moses, is silent as to shapes; he has not said that the earth is a hundred and eighty thousand furlongs in circuмference; he has not measured into what extent of air its shadow projects itself while the sun revolves around it, nor stated how this shadow, casting itself upon the moon, produces eclipses. He has passed over in silence, as useless, all that is unimportant for us. Shall I then prefer foolish wisdom to the oracles of the Holy Spirit? Shall I not rather exalt Him who, not wishing to fill our minds with these vanities, has regulated all the economy of Scripture in view of the edification and the making perfect of our souls? It is this which those seem to me not to have understood, who, giving themselves up to the distorted meaning of allegory, have undertaken to give a majesty of their own invention to Scripture. It is to believe themselves wiser than the Holy Spirit, and to bring forth their own ideas under a pretext of exegesis. Let us hear Scripture as it has been written.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/32019.htm

St. Basil cautions against reading meanings into Scripture about the shape of the earth, saying it is a vanity that will not lead to the edification of our souls.
St. Basil was making a point about keeping people on track for what was important at the time.  He was not trying to debunk the truth, nor suggest that it didn't matter whether we believe in the earth or globe.  After all, suggesting he didn't really care is ridiculous because we all know it really does matter: One is true, the other isn't.  It just so happens that St. Basil showed his flat earth favoritism elsewhere. 
St Basil speaks here of the firmament in regard to the tabernacle: "In the midst of the covering and veil, where the priests were allowed to enter, was situated the altar of incense, the symbol of the earth placed in the middle of this universe; and from  it came the fumes of incense." (The Mystic Meaning of the Tabernacle, Bk V, Ch VI; Clement of Rome, Stromata, Bk V)
St. Basil was a full on flat earther and influenced Cosmas' book Christian Topography 200 years later by providing the knowledge of the typology regarding the Church, the tabernacle and the earth.  Thank you St. Basil! 

Re: The Church censors flat earth criticism
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2018, 08:42:47 PM »
The Church did not favour flat geocentric earth.  The cosmology taught in Catholic universities, believed by Saints, and assumed in Church docuмents was spherical geocentric earth.  The evidence for this is overwhelming.  Flat earthers like happenby refuse to acknowledge this evidence.
Well, now, at least since St. Basil.  Oops, no wait, St. Jerome.  Oh, wait, no...if we're going to do it right, God's Church has always favored flat earth geocentrism and has developed a teaching on the typology relating Christ with the Church, the tabernacle, the liturgy, and the earth.  For those interested.