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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 55887 times)

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Offline Marulus Fidelis

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #255 on: July 13, 2023, 01:40:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on July 13, 2023, 08:29:47 AM
    You won't be debating evolution with me because I would not defend evolution so there is nothing to debate.  But you have here shown yourself to be an intellectually dishonest and illogical debater who misrepresents the positions of his opponents. 
    Dishonest? Everything I said was clear and to the point unlike your evasion when I asked you a simple yes or no question - "do you believe in evolution?" I, of course, interpreted your evasion as you being ashamed to admit publicly that you don't regard evolution as the heretical trash theory that it is.

    As to misrepresenting positions, I've demonstrated Augustine rejects evolution contrary to your misrepresentation of him.
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    Offline Always

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #256 on: July 13, 2023, 01:40:49 PM »
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #257 on: July 13, 2023, 01:51:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Always on July 13, 2023, 01:40:49 PM
    https://www.defendingthebride.com/ma2/aquinas.html
    :facepalm: I can't believe what I'm reading... accoeding to this clown (who also promotes heliocentrism in the article) St. Thomas Aquinas was correct in saying that if Mary did not contract original sin it would denigrate the sacrifice of Christ.

    What's the argument? Basically, St. Thomas is infallible therefore he wouldn't make such a mistake.

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #258 on: July 13, 2023, 02:01:12 PM »
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    • Quote
    "Let there be light," was spoken ineffably. One can ask whether what was spoken is the only-begotten Son. For what was spoken is called the Word of God by whom all things were made.
    Let's revisit what St Augustine said.  God spoke an ineffable language/word, but He did speak.  Because what God spoke was the Word, which is Christ.  Now since Christ is also God, and unknowable by human kind, it stands to reason that the language used was ineffable (i.e. unexpressable, unable to be explained/understood).


    Then we have Jaynek's "explanation":

    Quote
    Yes, the literal interpretation, that is the meaning intended by God, is that light came into being when created by the will of God.  This meaning is conveyed by using the figurative expression "God spoke" in which we understand God's act by analogy to human speech while recognizing they are not equivalent.

    She says that it is figurative language that "God spoke" which then denies that Christ, who is the Word, was spoken.  All of this in contrary to what St Augustine was saying.

    You need to start reading the Bible using the Haydock commentary, because you're way off base.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #259 on: July 13, 2023, 02:21:58 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 01:24:04 PM
    There's not been a consensus either way.
    There was a lack of consensus during the Patristic period, but after St. Bede there was a consensus that lasted over a thousand years.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 01:24:04 PM
    It's a debated topic.
     
    After that long period of consensus, there has only been debate about globe earth among Catholics since Vatican  II.  The 19th century belief in flat earth promoted by Samuel Rowbotham (and other sola Scriptura heretics) was unable to infiltrate the Church before her safeguards to the Faith were dismantled.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 01:24:04 PM
    The Church allows both theories.  Until She teaches clearly, you can't say flat-earth is any more wrong than globe earth.
    Yes, both theories are allowed as a matter of science.  But she does not allow claims that Scripture teaches flat earth or that people who accept globe earth are denying the authority of Scripture.  These claims are interpretations of Scripture that contradict Church teaching.  It would similarly be wrong if supporters of globe earth claimed that Scripture teaches the earth is a globe. The Church has clearly taught that Scripture has no intent to teach on this subject.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 01:24:04 PM
    St Thomas was *slightly* wrong on the Immaculate Conception (which in the 1200s was not yet defined), but this doctrine was no less implied.  Many others were *majorly* wrong about the Immaculate Conception, which caused the Church to investigate and determine that the Immaculate Conception WAS implied in Scripture and also explicitly taught in Apostolic Tradition.  Thus, now, it is an explicit doctrine; formerly it was only implicit.

    Yes, implicit doctrines can change to explicit doctrines.  But the teaching in Providentissimus Deus that Scripture does not intend to teach on matters like the shape of the earth is not going to change to a doctrine that Scripture teaches the earth is flat. The Church does not contradict herself like that.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #260 on: July 13, 2023, 02:41:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 02:01:12 PM
    She says that it is figurative language that "God spoke" which then denies that Christ, who is the Word, was spoken.  All of this in contrary to what St Augustine was saying.

    You need to start reading the Bible using the Haydock commentary, because you're way off base.
    When Scripture says that God spoke during creation is does not refer to the same physical act of speech done by humans.  It is a metaphor.  St. Thomas talks about this in the Summa:

    It is befitting Holy Writ to put forward divine and spiritual truths by means of comparisons with material things. For God provides for everything according to the capacity of its nature. Now it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths through sensible objects, because all our knowledge originates from sense. Hence in Holy Writ, spiritual truths are fittingly taught under the likeness of material things. This is what Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. i): "We cannot be enlightened by the divine rays except they be hidden within the covering of many sacred veils." It is also befitting Holy Writ, which is proposed to all without distinction of persons — "To the wise and to the unwise I am a debtor" (Romans 1:14) — that spiritual truths be expounded by means of figures taken from corporeal things, in order that thereby even the simple who are unable by themselves to  grasp intellectual things may be able to understand it.

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1001.htm#article9

    This passage is also relevant:

    ...whatever is predicated of various things under the same name but not in the same sense, is predicated equivocally. But no name belongs to God in the same sense that it belongs to creatures; for instance, wisdom in creatures is a quality, but not in God. Now a different genus changes an essence, since the genus is part of the definition; and the same applies to other things. Therefore whatever is said of God and of creatures is predicated equivocally.

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1013.htm#article5

    I suggest that you read both of these passages in their full context in order to understand them better.  Nothing that I have written says or implies that Christ is not the Word of God or denies any point of Catholic doctrine.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #261 on: July 13, 2023, 03:04:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 13, 2023, 01:40:16 PM
    Dishonest? Everything I said was clear and to the point unlike your evasion when I asked you a simple yes or no question - "do you believe in evolution?"

    I do not consider it a simple yes or no question.  I wanted to specify exactly how and why I disagree with it.  Did you read the link to Humani Generis that I included?  That should have made it clear that my answer was not an evasion.

    But I will retract my claim that you were being dishonest.  Somehow, you seem to have genuinely thought that I was arguing for evolution.

    Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 13, 2023, 01:40:16 PM
    As to misrepresenting positions, I've demonstrated Augustine rejects evolution contrary to your misrepresentation of him.

    It is not a misrepresentation to state that St. Augustine could neither reject nor support a theory that did not exist.  While he may have made comments that are not compatible with evolution, they were not made as an argument against evolution. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #262 on: July 13, 2023, 03:08:16 PM »
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    There was a lack of consensus during the Patristic period, but after St. Bede there was a consensus that lasted over a thousand years.
    Doesn't matter the length of time.  There's still a lack of consensus.  The Church Fathers carry more weight than the 1,000+ years after them, because they were closer to the Apostles/Christ and were part of Tradition. 

    Quote
    But the teaching in Providentissimus Deus that Scripture does not intend to teach on matters like the shape of the earth is not going to change to a doctrine that Scripture teaches the earth is flat. The Church does not contradict herself like that.
    P.D. says that Scripture does not intend to Teach on the matter, i.e. give details to explain why.  This is correct.

    But the Church could still come out in the future (by interpreting Scripture/Tradition) and tell us that the earth is flat.  This would not be a contradiction at all.  I'm not saying it's going to happen (or needs to), but She could do it. 

    The Church definitely needs to anathematize Heliocentrism, for sure.  That is a heinous lie.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #263 on: July 13, 2023, 03:08:32 PM »
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    • I would agree that when God spoke, He is not doing so in the same material way that humans do, by making vibrations creating waves in the air.  When God first spoke, there was no air to vibrate.  Formally, speaking refers to manifesting your thoughts or your mind outside of your own mind and outside of yourself.  So, when God, spoke, it meant that He reached outside himself (in a sense) and expressed His mind in His creation.  His creation are His words in that they reflect His mind.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #264 on: July 13, 2023, 03:10:46 PM »
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    When Scripture says that God spoke during creation is does not refer to the same physical act of speech done by humans.  It is a metaphor. 
    God spoke when He created light, because He spoke "The Word" which is Christ.  This. is. not. a. metaphor.


    Just because God used language that we would not understand (i.e. the meaning of "ineffable") does not mean God didn't speak.

    :facepalm:
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #265 on: July 13, 2023, 03:19:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 03:08:16 PM
    Doesn't matter the length of time.  There's still a lack of consensus.  The Church Fathers carry more weight than the 1,000+ years after them, because they were closer to the Apostles/Christ and were part of Tradition. 
    This is incorrect.  The Fathers only carry that sort of weight when they are in consensus. There was no consensus among the Fathers that Scripture teaches the earth is flat.  St. Augustine and St. Basil both taught that Scripture does not teach the shape of the earth.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #266 on: July 13, 2023, 03:20:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 03:10:46 PM
    God spoke when He created light, because He spoke "The Word" which is Christ.  This. is. not. a. metaphor.


    Just because God used language that we would not understand (i.e. the meaning of "ineffable") does not mean God didn't speak.

    :facepalm:

    I agree that God spoke for real, that it's not a metaphor, but the difference is in understanding the formal aspect of speaking from the material ... as per my post above.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #267 on: July 13, 2023, 03:24:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on July 13, 2023, 03:08:32 PM
    I would agree that when God spoke, He is not doing so in the same material way that humans do, by making vibrations creating waves in the air.  When God first spoke, there was no air to vibrate.  Formally, speaking refers to manifesting your thoughts or your mind outside of your own mind and outside of yourself.  So, when God, spoke, it meant that He reached outside himself (in a sense) and expressed His mind in His creation.  His creation are His words in that they reflect His mind.
    Well said.  I think that this is a good example of what St. Thomas was talking about when he wrote of Scripture "putting forward divine and spiritual truths by means of comparisons with material things".
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #268 on: July 13, 2023, 03:29:54 PM »
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    • Quote
    I agree that God spoke for real, that it's not a metaphor, but the difference is in understanding the formal aspect of speaking from the material ... as per my post above.
    Right, and that was St Augustine's point.  God did speak, but not in the same way as us and He used language we couldn't comprehend.

    Jaynek is twisting St Augustine's words (and her lack of understanding what 'ineffable' means) to say that this part of Genesis is a metaphor.

    Then she misuses the phrase "silent on the matter" to brush away parts of Scripture she doesn't like, ignoring the many, many indirect implications.

    Very, very dishonest or very, very dumb.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #269 on: July 13, 2023, 03:37:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 03:29:54 PM
    Then she misuses the phrase "silent on the matter" to brush away parts of Scripture she doesn't like, ignoring the many, many indirect implications.

    Only the Church has the authority to say what is being indirectly implied by Scripture and she has made no such statements in regard to flat earth.  Of course I ignore your opinions on the subject.  You do not seem to have a very good grasp of any of the principles involved.
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