Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis (Read 78351 times)

Jaynek · « **Reply #260 on:** July 13, 2023, 02:41:53 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 13, 2023, 02:01:12 PM

She says that it is figurative language that "God spoke" which then denies that Christ, who is the Word, was spoken. All of this in contrary to what St Augustine was saying.

You need to start reading the Bible using the Haydock commentary, because you're way off base.

When Scripture says that God spoke during creation is does not refer to the same physical act of speech done by humans. It is a metaphor. St. Thomas talks about this in the Summa:

It is befitting Holy Writ to put forward divine and spiritual truths by means of comparisons with material things. For God provides for everything according to the capacity of its nature. Now it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths through sensible objects, because all our knowledge originates from sense. Hence in Holy Writ, spiritual truths are fittingly taught under the likeness of material things. This is what Dionysius says (Coel. Hier. i): "We cannot be enlightened by the divine rays except they be hidden within the covering of many sacred veils." It is also befitting Holy Writ, which is proposed to all without distinction of persons — "To the wise and to the unwise I am a debtor" (Romans 1:14) — that spiritual truths be expounded by means of figures taken from corporeal things, in order that thereby even the simple who are unable by themselves to grasp intellectual things may be able to understand it.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1001.htm#article9

This passage is also relevant:

...whatever is predicated of various things under the same name but not in the same sense, is predicated equivocally. But no name belongs to God in the same sense that it belongs to creatures; for instance, wisdom in creatures is a quality, but not in God. Now a different genus changes an essence, since the genus is part of the definition; and the same applies to other things. Therefore whatever is said of God and of creatures is predicated equivocally.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1013.htm#article5

I suggest that you read both of these passages in their full context in order to understand them better. Nothing that I have written says or implies that Christ is not the Word of God or denies any point of Catholic doctrine.

Jaynek · « **Reply #261 on:** July 13, 2023, 03:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 13, 2023, 01:40:16 PM

Dishonest? Everything I said was clear and to the point unlike your evasion when I asked you a simple yes or no question - "do you believe in evolution?"

I do not consider it a simple yes or no question. I wanted to specify exactly how and why I disagree with it. Did you read the link to Humani Generis that I included? That should have made it clear that my answer was not an evasion.

But I will retract my claim that you were being dishonest. Somehow, you seem to have genuinely thought that I was arguing for evolution.

Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on July 13, 2023, 01:40:16 PM

As to misrepresenting positions, I've demonstrated Augustine rejects evolution contrary to your misrepresentation of him.

It is not a misrepresentation to state that St. Augustine could neither reject nor support a theory that did not exist. While he may have made comments that are not compatible with evolution, they were not made as an argument against evolution.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #262 on:** July 13, 2023, 03:08:16 PM »

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There was a lack of consensus during the Patristic period, but after St. Bede there was a consensus that lasted over a thousand years.

Doesn't matter the length of time. There's still a lack of consensus. The Church Fathers carry more weight than the 1,000+ years after them, because they were closer to the Apostles/Christ and were part of Tradition.

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But the teaching in Providentissimus Deus that Scripture does not intend to teach on matters like the shape of the earth is not going to change to a doctrine that Scripture teaches the earth is flat. The Church does not contradict herself like that.

P.D. says that Scripture does not intend to Teach on the matter, i.e. give details to explain why. This is correct.

But the Church could still come out in the future (by interpreting Scripture/Tradition) and tell us that the earth is flat. This would not be a contradiction at all. I'm not saying it's going to happen (or needs to), but She could do it.

The Church definitely needs to anathematize Heliocentrism, for sure. That is a heinous lie.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #263 on:** July 13, 2023, 03:08:32 PM »

I would agree that when God spoke, He is not doing so in the same material way that humans do, by making vibrations creating waves in the air. When God first spoke, there was no air to vibrate. Formally, speaking refers to manifesting your thoughts or your mind outside of your own mind and outside of yourself. So, when God, spoke, it meant that He reached outside himself (in a sense) and expressed His mind in His creation. His creation are His words in that they reflect His mind.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #264 on:** July 13, 2023, 03:10:46 PM »

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When Scripture says that God spoke during creation is does not refer to the same physical act of speech done by humans. It is a metaphor.

God spoke when He created light, because He spoke "The Word" which is Christ. This. is. not. a. metaphor.

Just because God used language that we would not understand (i.e. the meaning of "ineffable") does not mean God didn't speak.

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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis (Read 78351 times)

Jaynek

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Jaynek

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Pax Vobis

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Ladislaus

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Pax Vobis

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