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Author Topic: Bishop Pfeiffer  (Read 31357 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
« Reply #105 on: July 31, 2020, 07:39:13 AM »
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  • 2. Whether Bp. Webster mispronounced his words (the audio isn’t very clear) or there was a loss of attention does not render the sacrament invalid. 

    This is not true.  If the words were changed enough so as to change their essential meaning, the consecration would not be valid.  SeanJohnson cited St. Thomas in this regard.


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #106 on: July 31, 2020, 07:46:00 AM »
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  • This is what came to my mind.  Get out your Douay Rheims.  Read 1 Kings 13.  


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #107 on: July 31, 2020, 08:07:42 AM »
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  • This is not true.  If the words were changed enough so as to change their essential meaning, the consecration would not be valid.  SeanJohnson cited St. Thomas in this regard.
    "so as to change their essential meaning"

    Even if the bishop spoke the words inaccurately, it seems this would have to be proven.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #108 on: July 31, 2020, 09:16:10 AM »
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  • Yes, this was Latin.  There is some allowance for simple mispronunciation, of course, but in my mind, this crossed a line.  ministerii summam is in fact the essential thing that is being conferred upon the consecrand, the pinnacle of the priesthood, and it came across as misterii sanum.  That's what I heard.

    I don't quite get this.  I can see that the Pontificale appeared to be formatted in a difficult way and he was struggling to find his place and perhaps it was small type.  If I had been consecrating, I would have had the essential form printed out on paper in larger type and better formatting and would have practiced it a few times.  At the very least, after I had stumbled through it like that, I would have certainly said it again until I got it right.  DURING the essential form at one point there was a 5-second pause as he lost his place.  At that point, I would have been starting over.


    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #109 on: July 31, 2020, 09:20:36 AM »
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  • Perhaps relevant: St Boniface came across a priest who was baptizing “in nomine patria et filia et Spiritus Sancti.” St Boniface wrote to the pope, claiming this was invalid. However, Pope Zachary did not agree. Bad Latin did not invalidate the sacrament.
    I believe this is true.
    However, pope Pius xii (?) Said that certain words MUST be said for validity of a consecration (see previous post on this thread).  I wonder if bad latin can be cited here?


    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #110 on: July 31, 2020, 09:25:12 AM »
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  • I’ve been asked to come on here to correct a few errors currently circulating regarding the consecration of Bp. Pfeiffer. 

    1. To say that Bp. Pfeiffer went looking for himself to be consecrated is calumny. 
    Who asked you and why is your opinion important?  What are your credentials?
    .
    It is not calumny to say that Fr. Pfeiffer went looking for himself to be consecrated if, in fact, you KNOW this to be true.  Fr. Pfeiffer is a very public figure and the laity have a right, nay a duty, to know their shepherd.
    .
    The question is, does it matter as to validity of the consecration?

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #111 on: July 31, 2020, 09:30:38 AM »
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  • He does not look happy.
    Because he knows what he has done is not only hypocritical but also wrong.  It goes against everything he has ever said and taught.  

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #112 on: July 31, 2020, 09:34:43 AM »
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  • There is no doubt:
    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=60&catna
    In Fr. Pfeiffers mind there was doubt.
    He told me, on more than one occasion, that he believed the entire Thuc line to be invalid and their masses invalid.
    It seems to me, if there is doubt in the mind of the one being consecrated, as to the validity of the consecrator, the validity of the consecrations comes in to play.
    Also, doesn't canon law require a minimum of two bishops to perform a valid consecration, unless the bishop is a missionary?


    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #113 on: July 31, 2020, 09:36:10 AM »
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  • It's not addressed here, but mentioned in passing, because there have been dozens of long threads about this.  Some people, mostly of the SSPV mindset, consider them doubtful.  I, on the other hand, have not seen anything that would suffice to establish any positive doubt.  It is due entirely to SSPV propaganda that people have negative doubts about them.  Meanwhile, the same people that doubt the +Thuc ordinations have no issues with the +Mendez ordinations and consecration ... despite the fact that it labors under the same difficulties.  I don't have a problem with either line.

    Now, there are some strange +Thuc lines that are very difficult to verify, but the main lines have little doubt about them, especially the +Guerards des Laurier->+McKenna, and the +Carmona lines.

    Someone offline sent me a signed conditional ordination certificate for Terrasson, which would put that doubt to bed.

    There's little doubt about the validity of the Clemente Dominguez line either per se, but I do have some questions about Clemente's training.  He was ordained/consecrated with little training, and I would have some questions about whether he could competently perform an ordination or consecration.  Part of the presumption of validity has to do with the assumption that a properly-trained priest or bishop can validly confect the Sacraments ... another reason why proper clerical training is so important.

    It is my personal opinion, however, that Bishop Webster sufficiently botched the essential form during this consecration to render it positively doubtful.  Had they not released this video, there would have been presumption of validity, but with this evidence, there's now positive doubt.
    What matters more is what Fr. Pfeiffer thinks of the Thuc line.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #114 on: July 31, 2020, 09:40:19 AM »
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  • This is what came to my mind.  Get out your Douay Rheims.  Read 1 Kings 13.  
     was a child of one year when he began to reign, and he reigned two years over Israel. [2] And Saul chose him three thousand men of Israel: and two thousand were with Saul in Machmas, and in mount Bethel: and a thousand with Jonathan in Gabaa of Benjamin, and the rest of the people he sent back every man to their dwellings. [3] And Jonathan smote the garrison of the Philistines which was in Gabaa. And when the Philistines had heard of it, Saul sounded the trumpet over all the land, saying: Let the Hebrews hear. [4] And all Israel heard this report: Saul hath smitten the garrison of the Philistines: and Israel took courage against the Philistines. And the people were called together after Saul to Galgal. [5] The Philistines also were assembled to fight against Israel, thirty thousand chariots, and six thousand horsemen, and a multitude of people besides, like the sand on the sea shore for number. And going up they camped in Machmas at the east of Bethaven.
    [1] "Of one year": That is, he was good and like an innocent child, and for two years continued in that innocency.
    [6] And when the men of Israel saw that they were straitened, (for the people were distressed,) they hid themselves in caves, and in thickets, and in rocks, and in dens, and in pits. [7] And some of the Hebrews passed over the Jordan into the land of Gad and Galaad. And when Saul was yet in Galgal, all the people that followed him were greatly afraid. [8] And he waited seven days according to the appointment of Samuel, I and Samuel came not to Galgal, and the people slipt away from him. [9] Then Saul said: Bring me the h0Ɩ0cαųst, and the peace offerings. And he offered the h0Ɩ0cαųst. [10] And when he had made an end of offering the h0Ɩ0cαųst, behold Samuel came: and Saul went forth to meet him and salute him.
    [11] And Samuel said to him: What hast thou done? Saul answered: Because I saw that the people slipt from me, and thou wast not come according to the days appointed, and the Philistines were gathered together in Machmas, [12] I said: Now will the Philistines come down upon me to Galgal, and I have not appeased the face of the Lord. Forced by necessity, I offered the h0Ɩ0cαųst. [13] And Samuel said to Saul: Thou hast done foolishly, and hast not kept the commandments of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee. And if thou hadst not done thus, the Lord would now have established thy kingdom over Israel for ever. [14] But thy kingdom shall not continue. The Lord hath sought him a man according to his own heart: and him hath the Lord commanded to be prince over his people, because thou hast not observed that which the Lord commanded. [15] And Samuel arose and went up from Galgal to Gabaa of Benjamin. And the rest of the people went up after Saul, to meet the people who fought against them, going from Galgal to Gabaa in the hill of Benjamin. And Saul numbered the people, that were found with him, about six hundred men.
    [16] And Saul and Jonathan his son, and the people that were present with them, were in Gabaa of Benjamin: but the Philistines encamped in Machmas. [17] And there went out of the camp of the Philistines three companies to plunder. One company went towards the way of Ephra to the land of Sual; [18] And another went by the way of Beth-horon, and the third turned to the way of the border, above the valley of Seboim towards the desert. [19] Now there was no smith to be found in all the land of Israel, for the Philistines had taken this precaution, lest the Hebrews should make them swords or spears. [20] So all Israel went down to the Philistines, to sharpen every man his ploughshare, and his spade, and his axe, and his rake.
    [21] So that their shares, and their spades, and their forks, and their axes were blunt, even to the goad, which was to be mended. [22] And when the day of battle was come, there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan, except Saul and Jonathan his son. [23] And the army of the Philistines went out in order to advance further in Machmas.

    Offline Venantius0518

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #115 on: July 31, 2020, 09:40:47 AM »
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  • This is what came to my mind.  Get out your Douay Rheims.  Read 1 Kings 13.  
    "And Samuel said to him: What hast thou done? Saul answered: Because I saw that the people slipt from me, and thou wast not come according to the days appointed, and the Philistines were gathered together in Machmas, [12] I said: Now will the Philistines come down upon me to Galgal, and I have not appeased the face of the Lord. Forced by necessity, I offered the h0Ɩ0cαųst. [13] And Samuel said to Saul: Thou hast done foolishly, and hast not kept the commandments of the Lord thy God, which he commanded thee. And if thou hadst not done thus, the Lord would now have established thy kingdom over Israel for ever. [14] But thy kingdom shall not continue."

    We can only pray. 


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #116 on: July 31, 2020, 09:42:20 AM »
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  • "so as to change their essential meaning"

    Even if the bishop spoke the words inaccurately, it seems this would have to be proven.

    We have it on video.  If you hear something different than what I heard, it's up to you.  All I'm saying is that, based on this alone, I would not receive any Sacraments tied to Bishop Pfeiffer due to positive doubt.  Other people entertain doubts about the Thuc line in general.  Unfortunately, we don't have any relevant and trustworthy Church authority to decide this matter for us.

    This could be remedied quite easily, since Bishop Webster would merely have to do it again conditionally.

    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #117 on: July 31, 2020, 09:45:01 AM »
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  • Right, there's an allowance for a certain amount of botching ... especially messing up the Latin inflection (the word ending).  But he's saying that if the root of the word remains the same, it's considered valid.

    But if ministerii summam becomes misterii sanum .... it's a big stretch.  I think that this is bad enough to constitute positive doubt.  

    Yes, I think you are right about that.  I didn't watch the video.  Is there any chance that the audio was bad and it just sounds like he mispronounced the words?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #118 on: July 31, 2020, 09:47:21 AM »
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  • Yes, I think you are right about that.  I didn't watch the video.  Is there any chance that the audio was bad and it just sounds like he mispronounced the words?

    I don't think so.  It was clear enough that I heard what he said, both the parts he got right and the parts he got wrong.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: Bishop Pfeiffer
    « Reply #119 on: July 31, 2020, 09:54:42 AM »
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  • We have it on video.  If you hear something different than what I heard, it's up to you.  All I'm saying is that, based on this alone, I would not receive any Sacraments tied to Bishop Pfeiffer due to positive doubt.  Other people entertain doubts about the Thuc line in general.  Unfortunately, we don't have any relevant and trustworthy Church authority to decide this matter for us.

    This could be remedied quite easily, since Bishop Webster would merely have to do it again conditionally.
    I didn't hear something different, but wondered if the words he spoke meant something specific or were just non words which may prove he didn't mean to change anything to mean something different?  Or does that not really matter in the sense that the words simply must be said.  I agree, he could remove doubt by conditionally reconsecrating.