Author Topic: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions  (Read 670 times)

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Offline Yeti

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Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2020, 09:06:13 PM »
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  • This entire statement is extremely discouraging. Vigano is clearly perplexed and unsure what to do, and is merely blustering against Bergoglio and basically saying, "One more heresy, Bergoglio, ONE MORE, and I'll get the other orthodox prelates to declare you not the pope!" What else does he want to see? If this statement isn't enough, what will be ??!
    .
    He seems to describe the Church in an excessively naturalistic way. For example, this paragraph seems to convey a fundamental misunderstanding of the current situation:


    Quote
    +Vigano:
    Jorge Mario Bergoglio attempts to force certain cardinals and bishops to separate from communion with him, thus obtaining not his own deposition for heresy but rather the expulsion of Catholics who want to remain faithful to the perennial magisterium of the Church.

    .
    What??? If Cardinals and/or Bishops of the Novus Ordo Church were to profess the true Faith and declare Bergoglio a heretic and therefore deposed by his own act from the papacy, and proceed to elect a true pope who professes the Faith, that would indeed obtain Bergoglio's "deposition for heresy".
    .

    Quote
    +Vigano:
    The purpose of this trap would be - according to the presumed intentions of Bergoglio and his "magic circle" - to consolidate his own power within a church that would have no more "Catholic" than the name, but which would in reality be heretical and schismatic.
    .
    And the problem here is what?! If +Vigano declared Bergoglio an anti-pope and elected a new (true) pope, along with whatever prelates would want to go along with him, those people would be the Catholic Church. So Bergoglio is left behind in a church that is "in reality heretical and schismatic". Again, what is the problem with this? This sounds FANTASTIC to me!
    .
    This is very disappointing because +Vigano talks as though the current event is not enough to declare Bergoglio a heretic and depose him.
    .
    If this isn't enough, nothing is.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #16 on: October 22, 2020, 09:20:39 PM »
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  • I agree it is strange that Vigano seems to fear a movement of bishops deposing the pope, and concluding from this that they (rather than Francis and those who would remain loyal to him) would be declared schismatic.

    It seems as thought eh unity of the Church is still paramount to Vigano, no course of action (e.g., deposition) ought to risk fracturing it.

    I myself tend to think it would purify the Church and put it back on course, but who knows?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #17 on: October 22, 2020, 10:46:23 PM »
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  • I agree it is strange that Vigano seems to fear a movement of bishops deposing the pope, and concluding from this that they (rather than Francis and those who would remain loyal to him) would be declared schismatic.

    It seems as thought eh unity of the Church is still paramount to Vigano, no course of action (e.g., deposition) ought to risk fracturing it.

    I myself tend to think it would purify the Church and put it back on course, but who knows?

    Other solid bishops have made this mistake -- Bp. Tissier de Mallerais comes to mind.

    Why are such good bishops blind to the fact that unity, peace, and structure mean NOTHING when that peace and unity comes from SILENCE TOWARDS HERESY AND ERROR!

    Better to WAR FOR TRUTH than live for 100 years in peace under a regime of error.

    Bishop Williamson understands this. Unfortunately, few others are that brave.
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    Offline Sin of Adam

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #18 on: October 22, 2020, 10:59:08 PM »
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  • The problem is that Monsignor Viganò is almost alone in his line of thinking among the bishops of the world that are actually taken seriously by Rome. Moreover, Monsignor Viganò actually spoke about Bergoglio's sơdơmy verbal love letter and actually condemned its filthy message as opposed to the deafening silence by the only traditional society in the world taken seriously by rome i.e the SSPX. Too bad SSPX Priests & Bishops are too busy playing tag with Church Militant's flamboyant Michael Voris among other things.
    Lumen ad revelationem gentium et gloriam plebis tuae Israel.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #19 on: October 23, 2020, 06:33:02 AM »
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  • If even a small minority of bishops/cardinals with current jurisdiction (10%+) convened a council to declare the heresy of Francis, then convened a 2nd council to declare that God had deposed him, I would join them and declare sedevacante.

    But not without them.
    Just out of curiosity, where did you find the 10% threshhold?  Was it from the account of Abraham getting God to agree not to destroy sơdơm if only 10 just men within the city?  

    I fear that there are not even 10 just bishops within the walls of the Conciliar sect.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #20 on: October 23, 2020, 06:45:20 AM »
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  • Just out of curiosity, where did you find the 10% threshhold?  Was it from the account of Abraham getting God to agree not to destroy sơdơm if only 10 just men within the city?  

    I fear that there are not even 10 just bishops within the walls of the Conciliar sect.

    It was just a number which sprung to mind which would -to my thinking- be significant enough to justify following.  It would amount to 500 +/- bishops and cardinals.

    But like you, I think it is moot, as I don't see 10 bishops in the Church who would depose (and even if they did, would it only be on this particular subject, with a 2nd conciliar church established)?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #21 on: October 23, 2020, 06:48:52 AM »
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  • Bishop Schneider joins the party: https://www.infocatolica.com/blog/caritas.php/2010230626-283-mons-schneider-al-papa-fr


    Same sex civil unions and the Catholic faith
    by Msgr. A. Schneider

    The Catholic faith in the voice of the perennial magisterium, the sense of faith of the faithful (sensus fidelium) as well as common sense, clearly rejects any civil union of two persons of the same sex, a union which has as its objective that these persons seek sɛҳuąƖ pleasure from each other. Even if persons living in such unions do not participate in mutual sɛҳuąƖ pleasure, which in reality has been shown to be unrealistic, such unions represent a great scandal, a public acknowledgment of the sins of fornication against nature, and a proximate and continuous occasion of sin. Those who advocate civil unions between persons of the same sex are therefore also guilty of creating a kind of structure of sin, in this case the juridical structure of habitual fornication against nature, since ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts belong to the sins that cry out to heaven, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (see n. 1867).

    Every true Catholic, every true Catholic priest, every true Catholic bishop must, with deep sorrow and a crying heart, lament and protest against the unheard of fact that Pope Francis, the Roman Pontiff, the successor of the Apostle Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth , manifested in the documentary film "Francesco", which was released on October 21, 2020 as part of the Rome Film Festival, his support for civil unions of the same sex. Such support from the Pope means support for a structure of sin, for a lifestyle against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, which was written with God's fingers on stone tablets at Sinai (see Ex. 31:18) and given by the hands of angels to men (see Galatians 3:19). 

    What God has written with his hand, not even a Pope can erase or rewrite with his hand or his tongue. The Pope cannot behave as if he were God or an incarnation of Jesus Christ, modifying these words of the Lord: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28) and instead say, more or less, the following: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'if a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination' (Lev. 20:13); 'men who practice ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity will not inherit the kingdom of God' (1 Cor. 6:9); 'the practice of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is contrary to sound doctrine' (1 Tim. 1:10). But I tell you that for people who are attracted to the same sex "we must create a law of civil union. That way they are legally covered.

    Every Pastor of the Church, and especially the Pope, should always remind others of these serious words of Our Lord: "So whoever breaks even one of these commandments, even of the least of these, and teaches men to do likewise, shall be the least in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19). 

    Every Pope must take very seriously what the First Vatican Council proclaimed: "Thus the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter, not that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might keep holy and expound faithfully the revelation handed down by the Apostles,". (Dogmatic Constitution Pastor aeternus, chapter 4)

    Advocating a law to give legal cover to a lifestyle contrary to God's explicit commandment, against human nature and against human reason, is a new doctrine, that "those who sew ties for all the joints of the hands and make veils of all sizes for the head" (Ezek. 13:18), a new doctrine that "perverts the grace of our God into lewdness" (Jude 4), a doctrine that is evidently against Divine Revelation and the perennial teaching of the Church of all times. Such a doctrine cσnspιʀєs with sin and, therefore, is a highly anti-pastoral measure. 

    Legally promoting a sinful lifestyle goes against the core of the Gospel itself, since people in same-sex unions through their sɛҳuąƖ acts gravely offend God. Our Lady of Fatima made the motherly call to all humanity to stop offending God, who is already too much offended.

    The following voice of the Magisterium faithfully echoes the voice of Jesus Christ, Our Divine Master, the Eternal Truth and the voice of the Church and the Popes of all times:

    "if the laws or precepts of the rulers were in contradiction with that order and, consequently, in contradiction with the will of God, they would not have the strength to oblige in conscience. (Cf. John Paul II, Encyclical Evangelium Vitae, 72)
    "Legislation in favour of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions is contrary to right reason because it confers legal guarantees analogous to those of the marriage institution on the union between persons of the same sex. Considering the values at stake, the State cannot legalize these unions without failing in its duty to promote and protect an essential institution for the common good such as marriage" (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "Considerations on Projects for Legal Recognition of Unions between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Persons"). , n. 6)
    "One might ask how a law that does not impose any particular behavior, but merely makes legal a factual reality that apparently does not imply an injustice to anyone, can run counter to the common good. In this sense, it is necessary to reflect above all on the difference between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ behavior as a private phenomenon and the same as public behavior, legally foreseen, approved, and converted into one of the institutions of the legal system. The second phenomenon is not only more serious, but also more vast and profound in scope, since it could involve modifications contrary to the common good of the entire social organization. Civil laws are structuring principles of man's life in society, for better or for worse. They "play a very important and sometimes decisive role in the promotion of a mentality and customs"(14) The forms of life and models expressed in them not only externally shape social life, but also tend to modify the understanding and appreciation of behavior in the new generations. The legalization of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions would therefore be destined to cause the obscuring of the perception of some fundamental moral values and the devaluation of the matrimonial institution". (ibid.)
    "sɛҳuąƖ relations are human when and insofar as they express and promote the mutual aid of the sexes in marriage and remain open to the transmission of life. (ibid., n. 7)
    "By placing the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ union on a legal plane analogous to that of marriage or the family, the State acts arbitrarily and contradicts its own duties. (ibid., n. 8)
    "Not attributing the social and juridical status of marriage to forms of life that are not and cannot be matrimonial is not opposed to justice, but on the contrary, is required by it... there are sufficient reasons to affirm that such unions are harmful to the right development of human society, especially if they increase their effective impact on the social fabric". (ibid.)
    "It constitutes a grave injustice to sacrifice the common good and the law of the family in order to obtain goods that can and must be guaranteed by means that do not harm the generality of the social body. (ibid., No. 9)
    "Moreover, there is a danger that legislation, by basing certain rights on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, will concretely encourage a person with a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ tendency to declare his or her ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity or even to seek a partner with whom to benefit from the provisions of the law. (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Some considerations on the response to the legislative proposals on the non-discrimination of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons, July 24, 1992, n. 14)
    All Catholics, whether lay people or young children, young men and women, fathers and mothers, consecrated persons, cloistered nuns, priests and bishops, who stand inviolably firm and "fight for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), are therefore despised and marginalized on the periphery of the life of the Church today, weep and cry out to God so that, through the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, who said in Fatima that people must stop offending God, who is already too offended, Pope Francis may be able to convert and formally withdraw his approval of civil unions of the same sex, in order to confirm his brothers, as the Lord has commanded him (Cf. Luke 22:32).

    All these little ones of the Church (children, young people, fathers and mothers of families, cloistered nuns, priests, bishops) would surely say to Pope Francis: "Most Holy Father, for the salvation of your own immortal soul, for the sake of the souls of all those persons who through their approval of same-sex unions are with their sɛҳuąƖ acts seriously offending God and exposing their souls to the danger of being eternally lost, convert, retract your approval and proclaim with all your predecessors the following immutable teaching of the Church":

    "The Church teaches that respect for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons can in no way lead to the approval of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ behavior or the legalization of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions. (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "Considerations Regarding Projects for the Legal Recognition of Unions Between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Persons," no. 11)

    "Legally recognizing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions or equating them with marriage would mean not only approving deviant behavior and making it a model for today's society, but also obfuscating fundamental values that belong to the common heritage of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend such values, for the good of men and of all society. (ibid., no. 11)

    With the Pope's incredible approval of same-sex unions, all true children of the Church feel themselves orphans, and no longer hear the clear and unequivocal voice of the Pope, who must inviolably guard and faithfully expose Revelation, the Deposit of Faith, given through the apostles.

    The true children of the Church in our day could use these words from Psalm 137, saying: We feel like in exile, by the rivers of Babylon, weeping as we remember Zion, as we remember the luminous and clear teaching of the Popes, of our Holy Mother Church. 

    However, we believe unwaveringly in the words of Our Lord, that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. 

    The Lord will come, even if He comes late, only in the fourth watch of the night, to calm the storm within the Church, to calm the storm within the papacy of our day, and He will say: "Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid. Man of little faith, why did you doubt? And as soon as they got into the boat, the wind ceased. (Mt. 14: 27; 32-33)

    Our Lord will also say to Pope Francis: "For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul? Or what can he give to regain it? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his works". (Matthew 16: 26-27); and Our Lord will also say to Pope Francis

    "But I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when you are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:32)

    October 22nd, 2020

    + Athanasius Schneider, auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Santa Maria in Astana
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #22 on: October 23, 2020, 07:00:00 AM »
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  • Bishop Schneider joins the party: https://www.infocatolica.com/blog/caritas.php/2010230626-283-mons-schneider-al-papa-fr


    Same sex civil unions and the Catholic faith
    by Msgr. A. Schneider

    The Catholic faith in the voice of the perennial magisterium, the sense of faith of the faithful (sensus fidelium) as well as common sense, clearly rejects any civil union of two persons of the same sex, a union which has as its objective that these persons seek sɛҳuąƖ pleasure from each other. Even if persons living in such unions do not participate in mutual sɛҳuąƖ pleasure, which in reality has been shown to be unrealistic, such unions represent a great scandal, a public acknowledgment of the sins of fornication against nature, and a proximate and continuous occasion of sin. Those who advocate civil unions between persons of the same sex are therefore also guilty of creating a kind of structure of sin, in this case the juridical structure of habitual fornication against nature, since ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ acts belong to the sins that cry out to heaven, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church says (see n. 1867).

    Every true Catholic, every true Catholic priest, every true Catholic bishop must, with deep sorrow and a crying heart, lament and protest against the unheard of fact that Pope Francis, the Roman Pontiff, the successor of the Apostle Peter, the Vicar of Christ on earth , manifested in the documentary film "Francesco", which was released on October 21, 2020 as part of the Rome Film Festival, his support for civil unions of the same sex. Such support from the Pope means support for a structure of sin, for a lifestyle against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue, which was written with God's fingers on stone tablets at Sinai (see Ex. 31:18) and given by the hands of angels to men (see Galatians 3:19).

    What God has written with his hand, not even a Pope can erase or rewrite with his hand or his tongue. The Pope cannot behave as if he were God or an incarnation of Jesus Christ, modifying these words of the Lord: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28) and instead say, more or less, the following: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'if a man lies with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination' (Lev. 20:13); 'men who practice ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity will not inherit the kingdom of God' (1 Cor. 6:9); 'the practice of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is contrary to sound doctrine' (1 Tim. 1:10). But I tell you that for people who are attracted to the same sex "we must create a law of civil union. That way they are legally covered.

    Every Pastor of the Church, and especially the Pope, should always remind others of these serious words of Our Lord: "So whoever breaks even one of these commandments, even of the least of these, and teaches men to do likewise, shall be the least in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:19).

    Every Pope must take very seriously what the First Vatican Council proclaimed: "Thus the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter, not that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might keep holy and expound faithfully the revelation handed down by the Apostles,". (Dogmatic Constitution Pastor aeternus, chapter 4)

    Advocating a law to give legal cover to a lifestyle contrary to God's explicit commandment, against human nature and against human reason, is a new doctrine, that "those who sew ties for all the joints of the hands and make veils of all sizes for the head" (Ezek. 13:18), a new doctrine that "perverts the grace of our God into lewdness" (Jude 4), a doctrine that is evidently against Divine Revelation and the perennial teaching of the Church of all times. Such a doctrine cσnspιʀєs with sin and, therefore, is a highly anti-pastoral measure.

    Legally promoting a sinful lifestyle goes against the core of the Gospel itself, since people in same-sex unions through their sɛҳuąƖ acts gravely offend God. Our Lady of Fatima made the motherly call to all humanity to stop offending God, who is already too much offended.

    The following voice of the Magisterium faithfully echoes the voice of Jesus Christ, Our Divine Master, the Eternal Truth and the voice of the Church and the Popes of all times:

    "if the laws or precepts of the rulers were in contradiction with that order and, consequently, in contradiction with the will of God, they would not have the strength to oblige in conscience. (Cf. John Paul II, Encyclical Evangelium Vitae, 72)
    "Legislation in favour of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions is contrary to right reason because it confers legal guarantees analogous to those of the marriage institution on the union between persons of the same sex. Considering the values at stake, the State cannot legalize these unions without failing in its duty to promote and protect an essential institution for the common good such as marriage" (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "Considerations on Projects for Legal Recognition of Unions between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Persons"). , n. 6)
    "One might ask how a law that does not impose any particular behavior, but merely makes legal a factual reality that apparently does not imply an injustice to anyone, can run counter to the common good. In this sense, it is necessary to reflect above all on the difference between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ behavior as a private phenomenon and the same as public behavior, legally foreseen, approved, and converted into one of the institutions of the legal system. The second phenomenon is not only more serious, but also more vast and profound in scope, since it could involve modifications contrary to the common good of the entire social organization. Civil laws are structuring principles of man's life in society, for better or for worse. They "play a very important and sometimes decisive role in the promotion of a mentality and customs"(14) The forms of life and models expressed in them not only externally shape social life, but also tend to modify the understanding and appreciation of behavior in the new generations. The legalization of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions would therefore be destined to cause the obscuring of the perception of some fundamental moral values and the devaluation of the matrimonial institution". (ibid.)
    "sɛҳuąƖ relations are human when and insofar as they express and promote the mutual aid of the sexes in marriage and remain open to the transmission of life. (ibid., n. 7)
    "By placing the ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ union on a legal plane analogous to that of marriage or the family, the State acts arbitrarily and contradicts its own duties. (ibid., n. 8)
    "Not attributing the social and juridical status of marriage to forms of life that are not and cannot be matrimonial is not opposed to justice, but on the contrary, is required by it... there are sufficient reasons to affirm that such unions are harmful to the right development of human society, especially if they increase their effective impact on the social fabric". (ibid.)
    "It constitutes a grave injustice to sacrifice the common good and the law of the family in order to obtain goods that can and must be guaranteed by means that do not harm the generality of the social body. (ibid., No. 9)
    "Moreover, there is a danger that legislation, by basing certain rights on ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, will concretely encourage a person with a ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ tendency to declare his or her ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity or even to seek a partner with whom to benefit from the provisions of the law. (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Some considerations on the response to the legislative proposals on the non-discrimination of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons, July 24, 1992, n. 14)
    All Catholics, whether lay people or young children, young men and women, fathers and mothers, consecrated persons, cloistered nuns, priests and bishops, who stand inviolably firm and "fight for the faith that was once and for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), are therefore despised and marginalized on the periphery of the life of the Church today, weep and cry out to God so that, through the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, who said in Fatima that people must stop offending God, who is already too offended, Pope Francis may be able to convert and formally withdraw his approval of civil unions of the same sex, in order to confirm his brothers, as the Lord has commanded him (Cf. Luke 22:32).

    All these little ones of the Church (children, young people, fathers and mothers of families, cloistered nuns, priests, bishops) would surely say to Pope Francis: "Most Holy Father, for the salvation of your own immortal soul, for the sake of the souls of all those persons who through their approval of same-sex unions are with their sɛҳuąƖ acts seriously offending God and exposing their souls to the danger of being eternally lost, convert, retract your approval and proclaim with all your predecessors the following immutable teaching of the Church":

    "The Church teaches that respect for ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ persons can in no way lead to the approval of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ behavior or the legalization of ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions. (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, "Considerations Regarding Projects for the Legal Recognition of Unions Between ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ Persons," no. 11)

    "Legally recognizing ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ unions or equating them with marriage would mean not only approving deviant behavior and making it a model for today's society, but also obfuscating fundamental values that belong to the common heritage of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend such values, for the good of men and of all society. (ibid., no. 11)

    With the Pope's incredible approval of same-sex unions, all true children of the Church feel themselves orphans, and no longer hear the clear and unequivocal voice of the Pope, who must inviolably guard and faithfully expose Revelation, the Deposit of Faith, given through the apostles.

    The true children of the Church in our day could use these words from Psalm 137, saying: We feel like in exile, by the rivers of Babylon, weeping as we remember Zion, as we remember the luminous and clear teaching of the Popes, of our Holy Mother Church.

    However, we believe unwaveringly in the words of Our Lord, that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church.

    The Lord will come, even if He comes late, only in the fourth watch of the night, to calm the storm within the Church, to calm the storm within the papacy of our day, and He will say: "Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid. Man of little faith, why did you doubt? And as soon as they got into the boat, the wind ceased. (Mt. 14: 27; 32-33)

    Our Lord will also say to Pope Francis: "For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and suffers the loss of his own soul? Or what can he give to regain it? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his works". (Matthew 16: 26-27); and Our Lord will also say to Pope Francis

    "But I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when you are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:32)

    October 22nd, 2020

    + Athanasius Schneider, auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Santa Maria in Astana

    If we didn't know +Schneider was so conciliar, the following phrase might lead to speculations:

    "With the Pope's incredible approval of same-sex unions, all true children of the Church feel themselves orphans, and no longer hear the clear and unequivocal voice of the Pope, who must inviolably guard and faithfully expose Revelation, the Deposit of Faith, given through the apostles."

    Imagine if ++Vigano had made that statement!
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #23 on: October 23, 2020, 07:01:57 AM »
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  • This entire statement is extremely discouraging. Vigano is clearly perplexed and unsure what to do, and is merely blustering against Bergoglio and basically saying, "One more heresy, Bergoglio, ONE MORE, and I'll get the other orthodox prelates to declare you not the pope!" What else does he want to see? If this statement isn't enough, what will be ??!
    .
    He seems to describe the Church in an excessively naturalistic way. For example, this paragraph seems to convey a fundamental misunderstanding of the current situation:


    .
    What??? If Cardinals and/or Bishops of the Novus Ordo Church were to profess the true Faith and declare Bergoglio a heretic and therefore deposed by his own act from the papacy, and proceed to elect a true pope who professes the Faith, that would indeed obtain Bergoglio's "deposition for heresy".
    .
    .
    And the problem here is what?! If +Vigano declared Bergoglio an anti-pope and elected a new (true) pope, along with whatever prelates would want to go along with him, those people would be the Catholic Church. So Bergoglio is left behind in a church that is "in reality heretical and schismatic". Again, what is the problem with this? This sounds FANTASTIC to me!
    .
    This is very disappointing because +Vigano talks as though the current event is not enough to declare Bergoglio a heretic and depose him.
    .
    If this isn't enough, nothing is.
    This is what I meant by this theory being his "get out of jail free" card.  This guy is all bluster.  All words and no actions.  When I say I await his deposition, I certainly don't mean with bated breath.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Meg

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #24 on: October 23, 2020, 10:28:57 AM »
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  • He can't. The Church as a body has to do that. That seems to be the problem he's pointing out in that paragraph, IMO. If Francis strikes first and excommunicates any bishops who would gather to try and depose him, then they'd look like schismatics rather than the Church deposing a heretical pope.

    We can only hope that the Archbishop has some allies in mind to beat Francis to the punch with.

    I agree. Maybe the Archbishop does have some allies in mind. I hope so.

    The Archbishop could call for a Council in order to determine Francis' heresies, and thus censure and depose him if Francis doesn't recant and change his ways. But of course calling a council could backfire, in that some cardinals/bishops at said council could falsely determine that Francis is not guilty of heresy. But still, aren't councils meant to be a means of defining and correcting heresy?
    "This forum is a space for discussion to defend the Catholic Faith following Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre. It is therefore not for rallying to the conciliar church nor for sedevacantism"
    - From the French Resistance forum (Francophone forum, in France)

    Offline Sin of Adam

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #25 on: October 23, 2020, 10:54:49 AM »
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  • Councils cannot depose Popes.
    Lumen ad revelationem gentium et gloriam plebis tuae Israel.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #26 on: October 23, 2020, 10:59:03 AM »
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  • Councils cannot depose Popes.
    I don't believe anyone made the claim they could?
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-

    Offline Meg

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #27 on: October 23, 2020, 11:14:04 AM »
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  • I don't believe anyone made the claim they could?

    Actually, I did say that a council could depose Francis if it found him guilty of heresy, but maybe I was wrong to mention that.

    I think that the various theologians of the past have disagreed on how to depose a heretical pope. I think that Cardinal Catejan said that a council which found the pope guilty of heresy could proclaim that the pope should not be followed, though he would retain his office (or words to that effect).

    I don't think that there's a specific Church teaching on how to deal with a heretical pope in actuality, but I still think that a council should be convened in order to determine Francis' specific heresies (there are many).
    "This forum is a space for discussion to defend the Catholic Faith following Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre. It is therefore not for rallying to the conciliar church nor for sedevacantism"
    - From the French Resistance forum (Francophone forum, in France)

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #28 on: October 23, 2020, 11:23:25 AM »
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  • Councils cannot depose Popes.
    St. Bellarmine taught that the pope would ipso facto lose the form of the office by obstinate heresy and that then, and only then, a council could revoke the matter. The council would effectively recognise a deposition that had already occurred. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: ++Vigano's Declaration on Accepting sơdơmitic Unions
    « Reply #29 on: October 23, 2020, 11:27:42 AM »
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  • Actually, I did say that a council could depose Francis if it found him guilty of heresy, but maybe I was wrong to mention that.

    I think that the various theologians of the past have disagreed on how to depose a heretical pope. I think that Cardinal Catejan said that a council which found the pope guilty of heresy could proclaim that the pope should not be followed, though he would retain his office (or words to that effect).

    I don't think that there's a specific Church teaching on how to deal with a heretical pope in actuality, but I still think that a council should be convened in order to determine Francis' specific heresies (there are many).

    Well, a council does not judge the pope, but merely declares the FACT of his heresy.

    Then (if you follow JST/Cajetan), a second council declares that GOD has deposed him (not the council).  Or if you follow Bellarmine, the first council suffices.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


     

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