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Poll

Where do you stand on Marriage Prenups and State Marriage Licenses?

I FAVOR a Catholic prenup and REFUSE a state marriage license.
2 (8.3%)
I REFUSE a Catholic Prenup and ACCEPT a state marriage license.
1 (4.2%)
I accept Catholic marriage vows and state laws as written (and pray I'm not divorced).
13 (54.2%)
I don't have a firm opinion on either one.
3 (12.5%)
I hope to get to Heaven by remaining single.
5 (20.8%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Voting closed: July 05, 2018, 07:43:47 PM

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Author Topic: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?  (Read 18551 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2018, 06:11:05 PM »
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    • Quote
    is like being told, "I love you.  I don't agree in divorce.  I should trust you to keep your vow before God.  But deep down I really don't.  I think you'll cop out sometime.  Or try to manipulate me.  Would you mind signing this?" 
    If the court system were catholic and fair, then I agree.  As it is, the system is so skewed that, in essence, women have a court-ordered prenup by law.  As soon as a man marries a woman, by law, he's financially screwed if she ever gets a divorce (even if she doesn't remarry).  

    It's like a gun being pointed at a man by a woman's brother (who's a nut), who threatens that if the wife ever called him he would not hesitate to kill the husband.  And the man says, "Hey man, I'm going to marry your sister and I love her, but won't you trust me, calm down, and get out of our life?"  And the wife says to the husband, "Oh honey, we love each other and I would never tell him to shoot you, just trust me."  And the man is supposed to continue on with the marriage, even though the threat still exists and the brother can be called anytime.  Yet if the husband asks the wife to agree to call the cops on the brother and stop his threatening ways, then the husband is guilty of not trusting the wife.
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    Offline SusanneT

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #61 on: June 24, 2018, 06:21:44 PM »
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    • I could not support anything designed to anticipate divorce or make it easier. 
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #62 on: June 24, 2018, 06:27:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: SusanneT on June 24, 2018, 06:21:44 PM
    I could not support anything designed to anticipate divorce or make it easier.
    Prenups don't anticipate "divorces". They protect the parties involved in the prenup in accordance to their wishes in the docuмent, if a "divorce" occurs.

    Prenups don't make "divorces" easier. It's the opposite. They make them more difficult because a woman isn't going to "divorce" her husband when she knows she can't take the house, car, assets, and bank account of the man.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #63 on: June 24, 2018, 07:02:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 05:35:49 PM
    Not saying this applies to you, but isn't it reasonable to consider that if a woman rejects a prenup, it's an ominous sign that she will also be disobedient to her husband after marriage? If she doesn't trust the man at the moment he wants a prenup and he wants to get married, why should the man think she will be obedient and follow his lead after they're married?
    A whole bunch of women on the forum have all given the same reaction.  A prenup gives us the message that the man I am planning to marry does not trust me to keep my marriage vow.

    It's insulting and hurtful.  That is a major reason why we are all rejecting the idea.  I know that many of the women saying this are already married and believe very strongly in the husband's headship and wife's duty to obey him. 

    These are faithful, obedient wives telling you this.  We are not gold diggers who are planning to take the money and run.  We are traditional Catholics who take Church teaching seriously.  You keep claiming that rejection of a prenup means that a woman must have bad motives or be a bad wife, but it is clear that this is simply not so.

    Also, from what I an tell, the men who are agreeing with you about prenups are single and the ones disagreeing are married.  The people with experience are against having a prenup and it is supported by those who only imagine what marriage is like.  This in itself is a good indicator that prenups are a bad idea.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #64 on: June 24, 2018, 07:09:16 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 05:47:09 PM
    The example you provided (where I assume you were talking about a trad cath) wherein she got a divorce during a separation for monetary reasons, is frivolous, emotional and petty.

    You also assumed that just because a couple was separated that the man would automatically abandon them financially.  That's a pretty anti-male attitude, but in our day and age, that's normal.  Most women have this type of thinking, even if it's not voluntary.  Shows the depths of modernism that we've all been infected with (including me).
    A) Feeding yourself and your children is not frivolous and petty.
    B) I said even if it was his intention to support them, he would likely not be able to keep up with his own expenses plus that of a second household... one or the other including children.

    My example presumed a long-term separation. If the "contract" terminates after a 4-week separation is exceeded, the example is irrelevant.
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #65 on: June 24, 2018, 07:20:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 07:02:28 PM
    A whole bunch of women on the forum have all given the same reaction.  A prenup gives us the message that the man I am planning to marry does not trust me to keep my marriage vow.

    It's insulting and hurtful.  
    Not signing a prenup gives the man the message that the woman is disobedient and doesn't trust him. True love requires obedience of woman to man. If she is disobedient to his leadership at that time, why should he trust her to be obedient after they get married?

    This mistrust & disobedience is insulting and harmful to the man.

    Does female privilege override the man's concerns, and the woman should get what she wants?


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    That is a major reason why we are all rejecting the idea.  I know that many of the women saying this are already married and believe very strongly in the husband's headship and wife's duty to obey him.
    [...]
    Also, from what I an tell, the men who are agreeing with you about prenups are single and the ones disagreeing are married.  The people with experience are against having a prenup and it is supported by those who only imagine what marriage is like.  This in itself is a good indicator that prenups are a bad idea.
    This isn't an argument because those situations don't apply to everyone else. Each prospective couple is unique. If a man wants to be emasculated and later burnt by his wife by not getting a prenup, that's his prerogative, but don't tell other Catholic couples that it's the "unCatholic thing to do" and it's "unloving of a man to require a prenup".


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    You keep claiming that rejection of a prenup means that a woman must have bad motives or be a bad wife, but it is clear that this is simply not so.
    The statistics prove you wrong. In what bubble do you live? Today, most marriages end in "divorce", including Catholics and those who call themselves "trad".


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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #66 on: June 24, 2018, 07:28:33 PM »
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    B) I said even if it was his intention to support them, he would likely not be able to keep up with his own expenses plus that of a second household... one or the other including children.
    Ok so the man couldn’t afford to support his wife who, in your example, forced a separation, thus forced the man into a situation where he couldn’t support her.  THEN, knowing he couldn’t afford to support the separation circuмstances (which she caused) she got the courts involved to make him pay for the separation.  Because he couldn’t afford it, he’s now a street person because all his income goes to her. 

    Why don’t you come up with another hypothetical because you’re trying to justify the current one and the hypothetical wife just looks worse and worse as you try to defend her divorce reasons.  
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #67 on: June 24, 2018, 07:32:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
    This isn't an argument because those situations don't apply to everyone else. Each prospective couple is unique. If a man wants to be emasculated and later burnt by his wife by not getting a prenup, that's his prerogative, but don't tell other Catholic couples that it's the "unCatholic thing to do" and it's "unloving of a man to require a prenup".

    The statistics prove you wrong. In what bubble do you live? Today, most marriages end in "divorce", including Catholics and those who call themselves "trad".
    You do not hesitate to tell other Catholic couples that when there is no prenup the husband is emasculated and the wife is disobedient.  I have just as much right to make generalizations as you do.

    If you are going into marriage thinking that the statistics mean you will probably end up divorced, then you should not be getting married. Getting a prenup is not a solution for this.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #68 on: June 24, 2018, 07:34:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 07:28:33 PM
    Ok so the man couldn’t afford to support his wife who, in your example, forced a separation, thus forced the man into a situation where he couldn’t support her.  THEN, knowing he couldn’t afford to support the separation circuмstances (which she caused) she got the courts involved to make him pay for the separation.  Because he couldn’t afford it, he’s now a street person because all his income goes to her.

    Why don’t you come up with another hypothetical because you’re trying to justify the current one and the hypothetical wife just looks worse and worse as you try to defend her divorce reasons.  
    You're adding information. As long as both are willing to reunite after four weeks, there's no problem. Anyone not willing to reunite looses their rites under the agreement.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #69 on: June 24, 2018, 07:40:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Croix de Fer on June 24, 2018, 07:20:56 PM
    Not signing a prenup gives the man the message that the woman is disobedient and doesn't trust him. True love requires obedience of woman to man.

    Not necessarily, and she doesn't take the vow of obedience until marriage.  She could interpret the prenup as reflecting some quality or principle in him that she doesn't approve of.  Perhaps she's suspicious that he's anticipating dissolution and not committed for life.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #70 on: June 24, 2018, 07:41:57 PM »
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    • So, Croix, if a couple were to separate, you believe that the man no longer has any obligation to provide for his wife and children?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #71 on: June 24, 2018, 07:43:22 PM »
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    • In your original example, the wife separated from the husband (and you presumed he wouldn’t give her money, which then you changed to say that he couldn’t afford to) but you used this financial hardship as a reason for divorce.  If you’ll admit this is a wrong action, I’ll agree and we can move on.  

    But in your hypothetical, each and every time the wife escalated the situation.  1) she refused the marriage debt.  Reaction- husband immorally turned to vice. 

    2) In response to husband’s vice, she committed adultery.  

    3) Husband got mad and hit her (I don’t remember).  She had a miscarriage, incorrectly blamed him, separated, took the children, and filed for divorce to get money.

    Looking at the facts, neither party is blameless but the hypothetical wife started this situation and “upped the ante” every time she was offended.  I’m not condoning spousal abuse or sɛҳuąƖ vice but these sins are not as extreme as adultery and divorce.  
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    Offline Croix de Fer

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #72 on: June 24, 2018, 07:45:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on June 24, 2018, 07:32:15 PM
    You do not hesitate to tell other Catholic couples that when there is no prenup the husband is emasculated and the wife is disobedient.
    Because my points are factual statements. The epidemic of men falling victim to theft by women "divorcing" them can't be denied. These women use the courts to steal what he has built & acquired. A prenup stops it from occurring.


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    I have just as much right to make generalizations as you do.
    No, you don't because you give subjective opinions, while my argument is predicated off of objective reality.


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    If you are going into marriage thinking that the statistics mean you will probably end up divorced, then you should not be getting married.
    Another strawman. No man in his right mind goes into marriage thinking it will likely end up in divorce. That is hopelessness. The point of the prenup is to protect a man from legalized, court-sanctioned theft by the woman divorcing him, if a divorce were to occur, and it's only prudent to enact a prenup in the wake of the high statistical divorce rates. That doesn't mean he thinks his marriage will end in "divorce". It only means he's prepared for the worst. When you get car insurance, do you plan on getting in a car accident? That's the same "logic" you're using. Answer the question, woman.
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    Offline MaterDominici

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #73 on: June 24, 2018, 07:47:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on June 24, 2018, 07:43:22 PM
    In your original example, the wife separated from the husband (and you presumed he wouldn’t give her money, which then you changed to say that he couldn’t afford to) but you used this financial hardship as a reason for divorce.  If you’ll admit this is a wrong action, I’ll agree and we can move on.  

    But in your hypothetical, each and every time the wife escalated the situation.  1) she refused the marriage debt.  Reaction- husband immorally turned to vice.

    2) In response to husband’s vice, she committed adultery.  

    3) Husband got mad and hit her (I don’t remember).  She had a miscarriage, incorrectly blamed him, separated, took the children, and filed for divorce to get money.

    Looking at the facts, neither party is blameless but the hypothetical wife started this situation and “upped the ante” every time she was offended.  I’m not condoning spousal abuse or sɛҳuąƖ vice but these sins are not as extreme as adultery and divorce.  
    You're mixing examples. The soap opera was Jayne's example.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Do you favor State Marriage Licenses & Prenuptual Agreements ?
    « Reply #74 on: June 24, 2018, 07:50:57 PM »
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    • That was the ONLY hypothetical example given.  ??

    Wait...I may have misread your comment earlier.  So you're saying a wife would file for divorce to get GOVT assistance (like food stamps)?  I thought you meant, she would file to get the husband to pay (even if he couldn't afford it).  ...the former explanation makes more sense, but it's still a rash attitude which would make reunification less likely, imo.

    As I see it, if a prenup was in existence and she knew she couldn't file for divorce, then 

    1) it's extremely unlikely that she would've moved out to begin with, therefore the stress on the marriage from a separation wouldn't exist and they would be forced to discuss their issues/go to counseling like rational adults, instead of "abandoning ship" like an emotional teenager.  

    2) she would've had to have stayed with family/friends if she decided to separate, instead of receiving govt assistance and being on her own.  This would solve many problems, because her family and friends, if they disagreed with her, would talk some sense into her and get her to realize that BOTH of them are to blame for their marriage problems and they need to get a priest/counselor/parent/expert involved to help.  The last thing a woman needs in this type of situation is to be on her own, with no input from those that know her defects and temptations, only listening to sympathetic girlfriends who would blame everything on the husband.  This would not lead to reunification and the saving of the marriage.
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