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Author Topic: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?  (Read 14804 times)

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Offline Texana

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Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
« Reply #210 on: January 22, 2024, 05:26:30 PM »
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  • Dear MiracleOfTheSun,

    There is a story repeated by some (Dom Hesse included) that when Pope Pius IX was approached by the clergy proposing the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into the Canon, he simply answered: "I am only the pope." While this may be attributed to his humility, the truth is he knew that he could not do it (bound by the Council of Trent), hence the quote.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #211 on: January 22, 2024, 07:08:54 PM »
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  • In this video produced by the Vatican Ecclesia Dei Commission, listen at timestamp 16:42. You will understand that "St. Joseph in the Canon" change was a deception.

    The Missal of John XXIII that was promulgated and published in 1962 (as authorized in Summorum Pontificuм) did not include the "St. Joseph" addition. The change to the Canon is and was, therefore, illegal. 

    It was never officially promulgated by John XXIII in a legal docuмent and published in an approved Missal in the year 1962.



    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #212 on: January 22, 2024, 11:56:52 PM »
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  • Dear MiracleOfTheSun,

    There is a story repeated by some (Dom Hesse included) that when Pope Pius IX was approached by the clergy proposing the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into the Canon, he simply answered: "I am only the pope." While this may be attributed to his humility, the truth is he knew that he could not do it (bound by the Council of Trent), hence the quote.
    On the face of it, who could really complain about adding Saint Joseph?  But at the end of the day it's just another item that needed to be changed.  Sounds like Obama's 'change'.  Obama, keep the change.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #213 on: January 23, 2024, 06:16:19 AM »
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  • Dear MiracleOfTheSun,

    There is a story repeated by some (Dom Hesse included) that when Pope Pius IX was approached by the clergy proposing the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into the Canon, he simply answered: "I am only the pope." While this may be attributed to his humility, the truth is he knew that he could not do it (bound by the Council of Trent), hence the quote.
    Does the SSPX say St Joseph and does that make the mass invalid?

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #214 on: January 23, 2024, 07:29:37 AM »
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  • John XXIII's command issued in the decree Novis hisce temporibus can be found in the AAS:

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS-54-1962-ocr.pdf

    See page 873  'De S. Ioseph nomine Canoni Missae inserendo'


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #215 on: January 23, 2024, 09:06:59 AM »
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  • It was never officially promulgated by John XXIII in a legal docuмent and published in an approved Missal in the year 1962.

    Who cares?  Roncalli was an Antipope anyway, so of course it wasn't legal.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #216 on: January 23, 2024, 09:07:56 AM »
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  • Does the SSPX say St Joseph and does that make the mass invalid?

    It most certainly would not be invalid, and I do believe most of the SSPX add St. Joseph to the Canon.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #217 on: January 23, 2024, 09:19:31 AM »
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  • Does the SSPX say St Joseph and does that make the mass invalid?
    Dear AnthonyPadua,

    From what Angelus and PaxVobis are saying, the SSPX, thanks to the Abp. Lefebvre's diplomatic prowess, are using the 1960 Missale Romanum, which is the first version of 1962 Missale Romanum, without the additions authorized in November 1962. Any change to the Canon would be illegal, and the anathema of Trent would make it cursed. In addition, the wrath of Holy Apostles Peter and Paul (per Quo Primum) would be upon those who changed it and use it. It would not affect its validity since the Sacrament (its form and matter) were not altered and SSPX priests are valid ministers. ( N.B.  Some of the novus-ordo-ordained priests who work with them have not been conditionally ordained.)
    It is really not complicated if someone is willing to sacrifice some time and ask kind people for help.


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #218 on: January 23, 2024, 10:05:37 AM »
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  • My argument in favor for St. Joseph in the Canon is more an argument of custom/pious tradition, rather than of strict law under Pope John XXIII. I am leaving the pope question aside for now.  My argument is that the majority of pontiffs chose not to introduce St. Joseph in the Canon because it was believed that he died under the Old Law, which is only partially true.  I have read "The Life of St. Joseph" by Mother Mary Cecilia Baij, OSB (d. 1736 *By far my favorite book on St. Joseph), "The Glories of St. Joseph" by Healy, and quite frankly, anything of merit that I can get my hands on about St. Joseph.  It is clear that the tradition developed that St. Joseph was resurrected by Our Lord after Easter Sunday,  that he was reunited with Our Lady during that short interval of time, that he most assuredly received the Sacraments of the Church, and that he ascended with Our Lord into heaven.  All this said, it is only most fitting that St. Joseph be in the Canon of the Mass.  Who can argue that St. Joseph is not above all the martyrs by virtue of his eminent sanctity?  Offer to me a single argument as to why he should not be in the Canon.  St. Joseph is completely silent in Holy Writ, but he speaks in the Canon of the Mass.  St Joseph and Our Lady were together in life, together in Heaven, and together in the Canon, this only seems to me fitting.  

    And furthermore, many of us believe that the Age of Mary, yet to come, will be preempted by the Age of Joseph, so to speak.  Perhaps the  introduction of St. Joseph in the canon is a prefiguring of the Age of Mary.  I would personally like to see the Church define dogmatically the perpetual virginity of St. Joseph which is very clearly part of Church tradition, at least as far as I understand the matter.   
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #219 on: January 23, 2024, 10:33:31 AM »
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  • Dear AnthonyPadua,

    From what Angelus and PaxVobis are saying, the SSPX, thanks to the Abp. Lefebvre's diplomatic prowess, are using the 1960 Missale Romanum, which is the first version of 1962 Missale Romanum, without the additions authorized in November 1962.

    No, Texana, you misunderstood what I said. I said nothing about the practices of the SSPX. As anyone can see from looking at the SSPX-published Angelus Missal, the SSPX priests DO INCLUDE the St. Joseph addition in the Canon of the Mass.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #220 on: January 23, 2024, 10:53:14 AM »
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  • John XXIII's command issued in the decree Novis hisce temporibus can be found in the AAS:

    https://www.vatican.va/archive/aas/docuмents/AAS-54-1962-ocr.pdf

    See page 873  'De S. Ioseph nomine Canoni Missae inserendo'

    This was not a "command" of John XXIII. It was a decree from the Prefect of a curial congregation. Those are legally very different things. A legal change to the Canon of the Mass is not a small thing that one can sneak in with an obscure note that does not include the signature of the Pope himself.

    I translated the "decree" and provided the scan from the AAS as an attachment to the following post:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/red-alert!-are-the-sedevacantists-the-only-true-followers-of-abp-lefebvre/msg923811/#msg923811

    The key section is at the end (read carefully):

    Quote
    For this reason, this Sacred Congregation of Rites, following the will of the Supreme Pontiff, decides as follows below: Action after the words: "Communicating...our Lord Jesus Christ..." these will be added: "...but also blessed Joseph of the Spouse of the same Virgin..." and then continue: "...and of your blessed apostles and martyrs."

    The S. Congregation itself has also determined that this prescription should also be observed on the days where the special form of "Communicating" is prescribed in the Missal.

    That means that the Cardinals on the Sacred Congregation made the decision announced. Not the Pope. The Cardinals do not have the authority to change the Canon of the Mass.

    P.S. This same game was played by the freemasons allies of Bugnini starting with certain changes to Holy Week all the way through to the Novus Ordo and the new Sacraments. A small (possibly temporary) change was authorized by a Pope. Then that small change was further interpreted by the Curia into a huge change. The freemasons running the Curial Congregation made it look like (through a deception) that the change was canonically-promulgated by the proper authority, when it actually was not.


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #221 on: January 23, 2024, 11:24:46 AM »
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  • Does the SSPX say St Joseph and does that make the mass invalid?

    I have no idea what they say and I am not really interested in what they say (currently).

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #222 on: January 23, 2024, 11:40:12 AM »
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  • This was not a "command" of John XXIII. It was a decree from the Prefect of a curial congregation. Those are legally very different things. A legal change to the Canon of the Mass is not a small thing that one can sneak in with an obscure note that does not include the signature of the Pope himself.

    I translated the "decree" and provided the scan from the AAS as an attachment to the following post:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/red-alert!-are-the-sedevacantists-the-only-true-followers-of-abp-lefebvre/msg923811/#msg923811

    The key section is at the end (read carefully):


    That means that the Cardinals on the Sacred Congregation made the decision announced. Not the Pope. The Cardinals do not have the authority to change the Canon of the Mass.
    Dear Angelus, 
    The Decree clearly states that the Commission was following the will of the Supreme Pontiff. Said Supreme Pontiff was alive for seventh months after that docuмent was published. Unless he was incapacitated, he approved it, even if tacitly. His successor did not only not correct it; but he went even further into the curse by changing all of the rites of Sacraments.

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #223 on: January 23, 2024, 11:58:34 AM »
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  • This was not a "command" of John XXIII. It was a decree from the Prefect of a curial congregation. Those are legally very different things. A legal change to the Canon of the Mass is not a small thing that one can sneak in with an obscure note that does not include the signature of the Pope himself.

    I translated the "decree" and provided the scan from the AAS as an attachment to the following post:

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/red-alert!-are-the-sedevacantists-the-only-true-followers-of-abp-lefebvre/msg923811/#msg923811

    The key section is at the end (read carefully):

    That means that the Cardinals on the Sacred Congregation made the decision announced. Not the Pope. The Cardinals do not have the authority to change the Canon of the Mass.

    P.S. This same game was played by the freemasons allies of Bugnini starting with certain changes to Holy Week all the way through to the Novus Ordo and the new Sacraments. A small (possibly temporary) change was authorized by a Pope. Then that small change was further interpreted by the Curia into a huge change. The freemasons running the Curial Congregation made it look like (through a deception) that the change was canonically-promulgated by the proper authority, when it actually was not.
    Angelus,

    My apologies, I had not noticed you had given the reference already in the thread.

    However, I do not think one can, ordinarily, just dismiss the decrees of the Roman Congregations.  They act with delegated authority of the Holy See.  Only a relatively small amount of Church Law is promulgated directly by the Pope by Apostolic Constitutions, by motu proprio, Apostolic letter etc.   If something is not directly issued by the Pope can it simply be ignored?

    The changes to Holy Week were signed by the Cardinal Prefect of the SCR and its Secretary, not by Pius XII - are they not binding?

    For the record if I were in orders I would not name St Joseph in the Canon.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Red Alert! Are the Sedevacantists the Only True Followers of Abp. Lefebvre?
    « Reply #224 on: January 23, 2024, 01:39:36 PM »
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  • There is a story repeated by some (Dom Hesse included) that when Pope Pius IX was approached by the clergy proposing the insertion of the name of St. Joseph into the Canon, he simply answered: "I am only the pope." While this may be attributed to his humility, the truth is he knew that he could not do it (bound by the Council of Trent), hence the quote.
    .

    This is typical of the kind of arguments Canon Hesse makes. Dubious facts supporting false principles with bad logic.

    The story is questionable to begin with, but if it's true it's pretty obvious that it's a joke, and it doesn't come anywhere near indicating that Pius IX thought he had no power to put St. Joseph's name in the canon. A pope has the power to change the liturgy, and the Council of Trent didn't say otherwise.