Author Topic: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story  (Read 2650 times)

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Offline Jean Delacroix

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Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
« on: May 08, 2018, 07:15:00 PM »
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  • After browsing the other thread on Plinio Correa de Oliveira, I decided to look into the matter to see if there were two sides to the story. A Cathinfo post in November, 2017, raises some concerns about the legitimacy of the information presented in the previous thread. Below is the relevant information from the user Incredulous about the issue. I know normally this would be a response in the other thread, but given it is so comprehensive and refutes objections cast against de Oliveira, I figured it'd be best to create a new thread entirely.  

    Biography of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
    A Life Dedicated to Combat
    Atila Sinke Guimarães
    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (1908-1995) was born into two traditional Brazilian families, his mother’s family from São Paulo – Ribeiro dos Santos – and his father’s from Pernambuco – Corrêa de Oliveira. The former was known for its social distinction, the latter for its intelligence and oratory skills. Plinio inherited the characteristics of both families.

    When young, Plinio was the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil
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    After being formed in the Jesuit school of São Paulo and receiving a degree in Law, he entered the Catholic Movement and became the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil. The force of this Movement was such that in 1934 it elected Plinio, at age 24, to the National Congress, making him not only the country’s youngest representative, but also the one who received the most votes. In the House he fought to defend the civil rights of the Church and to pass laws, which for a long time upheld Catholic principles and institutions in the country.

    Subsequent to his term in the House, he earned a chair in History of Civilization at the Law Faculty of São Paulo and another in Modern and Contemporary History at the Catholic Pontifical University, also in São Paulo.

    In 1933, he was asked by the Cardinal of São Paulo to direct the Archdiocesan weekly journal O Legionário (The Legionary). For many years he was its editor and gathered around him a group of distinguished writers who followed him on a lifetime journey. From a simple Archdiocesan bulletin the paper was transformed in the late ‘30s and ‘40s into the most influential Catholic organ of the country.

    The writers of O Legionário became famous for their pugnacious stand against Communism, Nazism and Freemasonry, as well as for defending Christian Civilization and championing a culture coherent with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. In the religious sphere, they combated the nascent Progressivism, which was rising from the ashes of Modernism with the same poison, but new tactics, higher ambitions and a more prudent posturing.
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    Fr. Castro Mayer alongside Prof. Plinio and theLegionário team of writers
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    Those writers considered themselves continuers of the ultramontane movement of the 19th century in Europe. Among others, two priests joined the group: Fr. Geraldo Sigaud and Fr. Antônio de Castro Mayer.

    In 1940, Prof. Plinio was chosen to be president of Catholic Action in São Paulo. From this post, he carefully watched the insidious progressivist infiltration into the religious milieu. By 1943 he fully realized its maneuvers and wrote a book denouncing its strategy – In Defense of the Catholic Action(Em Defesa da Ação Católica). Later he described the launching of that book as a kamikazeoperation: he delayed the influence of Progressivism in Brazil, but blew up his own career along with the target.

    Indeed, the Cardinal of São Paulo who favored his work died and, after the short term of another, a progressivist took his place in 1944. Prof. Plinio lost the presidency of Catholic Action and the direction of O Legionário. A phase of persecution and ostracism began.

    He and the two mentioned priests agreed to continue the Counter-Revolution despite the consequences. Sometime later, Fr. Sigaud was made Bishop, followed by Fr. Castro Mayer. The union of the three was so strong that each Bishop adopted in his coat-of-arms the rampant lion Prof. Plinio had chosen to symbolize his fight.

    A new monthly paper, edited and published in São Paulo with the approval of Castro Mayer, now Bishop of Campos, took the name Catolicismo(1951) and recommenced the public fight. The Catolicismo group attracted younger persons, who drew in yet others. With this growing movement, in 1960 he founded the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property – the TFP.
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    Published in 1959 Revolution and Counter-Revolutionbecame the handbook for the TFPs everywhere
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    To provide guidelines for that group, in 1959 Prof. Plinio wrote Revolution and Counter-Revolution – R-CR, which became his masterpiece. In it he analyzed the Revolution’s historical process that started in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance and Humanism were its first manifestations; later it generated Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism.

    He also described its later phases: namely, the Fourth Revolution (the Cultural Revolution of the ‘60s), which tends toward Tribalism and a Pentecostal religion; the metamorphosis of Communism after the dissolution of the USSR; the infiltration of Progressivism in the Church, which changed the focus of the R-CR fight. Now, it had to be fought inside the Church.

    The ideals of R-CR extended to other countries. In 1995, at his death, there were TFPs and similar organizations in 26 countries.

    In the early ‘60s, Brazil was threatened by Communism, supported by Progressivism in the Church. Both were proponents of a socialist land reform to destabilize farmers, the backbone of the country's economy. With economist Mendonça de Freitas, Prof. Plinio wrote a book against land reform and invited the Bishops to sign it: Agrarian Reform – a Question of Conscience (1963). A success, the book became the pivot for an enormous public reaction against Communism. An undesired byproduct of this general dissatisfaction was a military coup that deposed the brazenly red president-to-be and installed a socialist dictatorship in the country.
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    Prof. Plinio leaves Rome when he realizes he has done all he could at the Council
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    In 1959, John XXIII announced his intention to convene a Council. Prof. Plinio warned Archbishop Sigaud and Bishop Mayer that they should study and prepare themselves intensively or they would be defeated by the progressivists at the Council. Unfortunately, they did not heed his advice.

    Notwithstanding, Prof. Plinio, along with about 20 laymen, accompanied the Bishops to Rome for the First Session with the hope that they would have a positive influence. With these laymen he organized two petitions, signed by hundreds of Bishops: one asking the Council to condemn Communism; the other asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as commanded in Fatima.

    He sought out the Bishops of Communism-dominated countries asking them to affirm that the Church-Communism coexistence is against Catholic doctrine. Ukrainian Archbishop Ivan Bucko agreed to state this at the Council. Prof. Plinio wrote an intervention for him, but Msgr. Bucko changed his mind and did not address the topic in the Council. In May 1964, Prof. Plinio published that study: The Church and the Communist State: The Impossible Coexistence.

    As the first session came to its end, Prof. Plinio realized that the progressivists were in complete control and suggested that the two Brazilian Bishops unmask their maneuvers. He proposed that they solemnly walk from the door of St. Peter’s Basilica to the main table in the conciliar hall, passing by the 2,300 Bishops assembled there. Then, before the whole assembly, they should expose the progressivist agenda for the Council and state that they were leaving in protest. Outside the doors, journalists would be waiting to interview them and spread the news. This dramatic rupture was meant to abort the entire spectacle of Vatican II. Unfortunately, the Bishops did not follow his advice.

    He did not return to the Council, which followed that progressivist path until its end.

    In 1965, Prof. Plinio wrote a book denouncing the popular new dialogue with communists: Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue. Although the approach of the study was temporal, it also applied to the religious dialogue being promoted by John XXIII and Paul VI insofar as dialogue was used not to convert heretics but to make them comfortable in their errors.

    After the Council’s closing, he received in Brazil the two returning Bishops. They had signed all its documents and told him, [paraphrasing]: “Now, we need to work on our group so they will accept the Council.” Prof. Plinio opposed the proposition, saying: “Your Excellencies can fry or cook the Council any way you want. I will never eat it.”
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    Archbishop Sigaud tries to implement the Council - Prof. Plinio disagrees
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    There was no rupture, but this divergence projected shadows on their decades-old relationship.

    Eventually, the two Bishops would break their agreement to stand together in the fight. Some years later Archbishop Sigaud distanced himself. He publicly supported the socialist military regime. His reason? “The military regime started the Reign of Mary predicted in Fatima”…

    In the mid ‘70s a lawsuit against the TFP called on Bishop Mayer to testify. He made a sworn statement that throughout more than 40 years of close collaboration he had never seen anything in TFP or in Prof. Plinio’s actions or thoughts that went against Catholic doctrine.

    However, in 1983, he took a public stand against Prof. Plinio. Why this change?

    In the late ‘70s, a certain Fr. Fernando Rifan – an expert in intrigue – was gaining the ear of Bishop Mayer. Rifan, who hated Prof. Plinio and the TFP, induced the Bishop to soften his position against Progressivism to the point that Bishop Mayer in some talks assumed the principles of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. In Rome he was photographed holding hands with JPII. Consequently, his visits to São Paulo ceased.

    In the early ‘80s, a rancorous high-school teacher, Orlando Fedeli, left the TFP because he felt his talents were not sufficiently recognized. At his rupture he wrote three letters disclosing “evidence” that Prof. Plinio had transformed the TFP into “a cult to worship himself and his mother.” Soon after he left, he sold his story to one of the largest Brazilian newspapers with close ties to Freemasonry – O Estado de São Paulo – which started a boisterous defamatory campaign.
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    Facing multiple defamatory campaigns with serenity and firmness
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    Encouraged by Rifan, Fedeli consulted with Bishop Mayer about a litany that two naïve teenagers had made in honor of Prof. Plinio’s mother. As soon as that litany was discovered, it had been forbidden by Dr. Plinio, but Fedeli did not inform Bishop Mayer of this “detail.” He presented the litany as if it were a prayer commonly said throughout the TFP with Prof. Plinio’s approval. Bishop Mayer condemned the litany as going against Catholic doctrine. This was in 1983.

    This condemnation and Fedeli’s accusations were duly refuted and the documents were reviewed by famous theologians in Spain. They issued a verdict affirming the refutation to be sound and Bishop Mayer’s condemnation “poorly made and difficult to understand.” It judged that some of the litany’s ejaculations were “naïve, others ambiguous and yet others extravagant” and praised Prof. Plinio for having forbidden its recitation. But they considered it “exaggerated to label them as heterodox or blasphemous, not taking into consideration the relative nature of the language being used.” Bishop Mayer judged it prudent not to reply.

    The Brazilian TFP published 2,000 copies of that refutation and full-page newspaper ads to inform the public of this judgment favoring Prof. Plinio.

    In response, Fedeli went to Spain to try to bribe the principle theologian who made the review. He was duly shown out of the room. Fr. Rifan, who at the time was very close to the Society of St. Pius X, spread the same lies to this organization, which continues to propagate them among its priests and seminarians.

    This campaign is just one in a list of many defamatory offensives made against Prof. Plinio.

    The Brazilian TFP was also condemned at various times by the very progressivist Brazilian Bishops. Some of these condemnations were duly answered; others not, simply because they were too biased to be credible.

    Altogether Prof. Plinio published 15 books.
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    A TFP street campaign celebrating the defeat of divorce
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    He also spearheaded many petition drives carried out by the TFP including:
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    It was Prof. Plinio who asked Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira to study Paul VI’s New Mass (1969) as well as the possibility of a heretic Pope. Silveira’s book was published inPortuguese (1972) and in French (1975). [An English version is available here]

    After Paul VI launched Liberation Theology in Medellin, Colombia (1968), Prof. Plinio made several campaigns against this new thrust of communist infiltration in the Church.

    In 1974 he wrote a position of resistance against the Vatican Ostpolitik, that is, its collaboration with the communist regimes. This Declaration of Resistance, which made him the pioneer of Catholic Resistance, was published in 21 newspapers in 10 countries.

    In 1982 he asked me to write and publish a collection analyzing Vatican II, which I did under his guidance and encouragement.

    Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira was the Catholic giant who, for many decades, held Communism at bay in South America. He also held back the advance of Progressivism in the Church as much as he could.

    One aspect that official biographies of this Catholic thinker and man of action do not address is the moral and physical sufferings Prof. Plinio endured.

    In the mid ‘70s, seeing how worldly and lukewarm TFP members had become, he offered his life to Our Lady to redeem that situation. Some days later, on February 3, 1975, he was in a serious car accident, suffering a broken hand, arm, leg and hip as well as severe injuries to his eyelids, lips and teeth. These graves lesions demanded multiple surgeries, causing him enormous moral and physical sufferings. The arm, leg and hip surgeries had to be made twice, still without success. The effects of that accident remained with him to the end of his days, obliging him to rely on crutches or a wheelchair.
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    A tragic car accident that won more
    20 years of fight for the TFPs
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    This suffering bought 20 more years of life for the TFPs. Toward the end, however, he confided to some friends: “If I were not in a wheelchair, they would expel me from the TFP.” He was referring to the directors who in theory followed his orientation, but in practice moved the TFP to a position of indifference and mediocrity.

    When he was dying in the hospital in 1995, those directors lost no time in sending a letterto the Cardinal Primate of Brazil, committing the TFP not to speak publicly against Vatican II, the New Mass or the Pope.

    A few years after his death, a split among his followers over the question of authority took place. Today, one faction – which includes the American TFP – upholds that same agreement with the Vatican; the other completely adhered to the Conciliar Church. Many members of the latter became priests and have comfortable ecclesiastical careers.

    Sadly, both sides had become weary of the fight against Progressivism, had reduced Prof. Plinio to a museum artifact and merged – in different ways and degrees – with that same enemy against which Prof. Plinio had fought his entire life.
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    With his symbol the rampant lion

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #1 on: May 10, 2018, 01:12:52 PM »
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  • Of course there is "another side to the story." Cult groups are skilled in pys-ops, and they also monitor discussion sites to cover up their dark side.

    Check this out: Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
       
           "In its 23rd General Assembly, April 10 to 19, 1985, the Bishops approved in plenary session a notice regarding the TFP. It therefore has all the official character of an Assembly of the Bishops of Brazil in Conference, and not simply a press release. The notice reads as follows: "Its esoteric character, religious fanaticism, the cult given to the personality of its founder and head, the abusive use of the name of Most Holy Mary, according to circulated information, cannot in any way merit the approval of the Church. "We lament the difficulties flowing from a civil society which presents itself as a Catholic religious entity, without a tie to the legitimate pastors.
            "This being the case, the Bishops of Brazil exhort Catholics not to enroll in the TFP, and not to collaborate with it.
            "The above stated was signed by +Dom Raymundo Damasceno Asas, Secretary-General of the Conference on National Bishops of Brazil on April 23, 1997."
            Immaculate Heart Messenger, ed. Father Robert J. Fox. January - March 1998 edition p. 29.
       
           In 1984 the local T.F.P. branch was outlawed in Venezuela, accused by a special parliamentary commission of being a "cult ... which warps the minds of young people, turns its members into fanatics and brainwashes them".
            Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o sètta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece
            http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm

       Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
        https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
               
            TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.

            Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.

            According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud.
                               
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #2 on: May 10, 2018, 02:06:15 PM »
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  • Of course there is "another side to the story." Cult groups are skilled in pys-ops, and they also monitor discussion sites to cover up their dark side.

    And, then, conversely, praiseworthy groups are very often attacked and vilified as "cult groups" by their enemies.  SSPX and most Traditional Catholic groups have at one point or another been smeared as "cults".  Hard to say, then, isn't it?

    You cite the Novus Ordo Bishops condemning TFP in 1985 and 1997.  I don't know if this means much, as any Traditional group they would likely consider a cult.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #3 on: May 10, 2018, 05:10:51 PM »
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  • And, then, conversely, praiseworthy groups are very often attacked and vilified as "cult groups" by their enemies.  SSPX and most Traditional Catholic groups have at one point or another been smeared as "cults".  Hard to say, then, isn't it?

    You cite the Novus Ordo Bishops condemning TFP in 1985 and 1997.  I don't know if this means much, as any Traditional group they would likely consider a cult.
    Yes, I thought of that, but then did more research. But what are your thoughts regarding the civil authorities in Brazil accusing them of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
    Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.

      https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/

    Do you find it concerning that the government accused them of "Concealment of minors"?

    Do you find it odd that the person who started this thread in defense of TFP has never been a member of Cath Info until today? This is that person's very first post.
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    Offline Geremia

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    The Crusader of the 20th Century: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
    « Reply #4 on: May 10, 2018, 05:34:00 PM »
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  • St. Isidore e-book library: https://isidore.co/calibre


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #5 on: May 10, 2018, 07:45:17 PM »
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  • Do you find it concerning that the government accused them of "Concealment of minors"?
    I searched for "Concealment of minors tfp" and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented? What evidence do you have for this accusation and why would you give more credibility to "the government" than to a great Catholic man who gave his life for the Catholic faith?


    Quote
    Do you find it odd that the person who started this thread in defense of TFP has never been a member of Cath Info until today? This is that person's very first post.

    Not at all. Any person who has an interest would join in order to defend the honour of TFP and Prof Plinio. One does not have to prove one's credentials to join CathInfo.
    .
    The article presented seems make a lot of sense and portrays well the condition of the Church today and the terrible destruction that hes been perpetrated.
    .
    I really cannot understand what is your gripe. You don't seem to me to have spelled it out.
    Is your gripe with TFP, with TIA, with Prof Plinio? I'm puzzled.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #6 on: May 11, 2018, 03:27:37 PM »
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  • I searched for "Concealment of minors tfp" and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented?
    You bring up a good point; there is a huge difference between googling and doing research and examining the topic in context. Another problem is that 98% of the information on TIA's parent group, Tradition Family Property is in Portuguese.
    If we could obtain the magazine Fidelity's May 1989 issue, we could both agree that TFP was condemned by the civil authorities for “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors."
    Lacking that, we are at an impasse. You choose to trust TIA's parent group TFP when they deny involvement in child-trafficking. Having read multiple reports of those who were tricked by TFP and who left, I don't.

    According to this website:
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/

    the following information was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
       
        TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.

        Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.

        According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #7 on: May 11, 2018, 05:53:28 PM »
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  • Well, again, my impression of the TFP group here in the States is that they're a bunch of well-intentioned Traditionally-minded Catholics who are struggling with the Crisis just like everyone else.  There's never been any indication that they worship Plinio or his Mom.  Are they devoted to him?  Yes, to an extent, but no more so than many Traditional Catholics are to Archbishop Lefebvre.  Not a few Traditional Catholics have felt that +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer were the two witness in the Book of Revelation (I've heard that said).

    I'd need more than just the activities of some rogue members of TFP before I could make a judgment about the entire group.  What's key in my mind is that Plinio tried to ban The Litany.  One could look at the SSPX from the outside, talk about all the splinter groups (various sedevacantists and even self-proclaimed popes like Pius XIII and Pope Michael) and make the same kinds of allegations against Traditional Catholics at large.


    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #8 on: May 11, 2018, 06:26:28 PM »
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  • Quote
    there is a huge difference between googling and doing research and examining the topic in context. Another problem is that 98% of the information on TIA's parent group, Tradition Family Property is in Portuguese.

    I didn't "google" but if you have done the research you should be able to come up with answers to my questions and provide evidence for your accusations. Do you have a problem with Portuguese?

    Quote
    You choose to trust TIA's parent group TFP when they deny involvement in child-trafficking. Having read multiple reports of those who were tricked by TFP and who left, I don't.
    Nowhere have I said that I trust TFP. In fact I am most uncomfortable with their style. Just provide the evidence for the accusations you are making, that is what I ask. It is for you to provide the evidence. 



    Quote
    According to this website:
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
    the following information was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
    Again, you can only come up with this site and unity publishing. In Christian Charity, provide the evidence or stop making unfounded accusations. These articles are all allegation, accusation and "according to the Brazilian government". 

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #9 on: May 13, 2018, 05:06:52 PM »
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  • . These articles are all allegation, accusation and "according to the Brazilian government".
    TIA's parent group TFP was condemned by the Catholic Church in two nations, and condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil where both TFP and TIA originated -- for child trafficking. Several former members have spoken out against them, knowing well how risky it is to do so when leaving a cult.
    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773
    http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/index.php/2010/07/i-still-think-p/
    http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/FatimaCult.html
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb17.htm
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil
    http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=342002
    and then there is this shocking video:
     
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    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #10 on: May 14, 2018, 01:11:37 AM »
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  • TIA's parent group TFP was condemned by the Catholic Church in two nations, and condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil where both TFP and TIA originated -- for child trafficking. Several former members have spoken out against them, knowing well how risky it is to do so when leaving a cult.
    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773
    http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/index.php/2010/07/i-still-think-p/
    http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/FatimaCult.html
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
    http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb17.htm
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil
    http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=342002
    and then there is this shocking video:
     
    Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation. How much credibility can we give it?
    .
    Where is the evidence for child trafficking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?
    .
    The websites links you give contain little more than hearsay, and still from the same limited group people with no real evidence.
    .
    I am not saying that what you believe is untrue. But you need to provide better information than is available. Some of this stuff dates from the early 80's. It's taking an awful long time to come out. Compare with that the wealth of information and documentation we have for example on Opus Dei.
    .
    I am not a supporter of TFP.
    .
    BTW this has all been fought over on CathInfo and the jury is still out.
    See here: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/america-needs-fatimatfp/
    .
    If you click on previous question on the ewtn page you will come up with
    http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=341999&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=


    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 11:39:16 AM »
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  • Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation. How much credibility can we give it?
    .
    BTW this has all been fought over on CathInfo and the jury is still out.
    See here: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/america-needs-fatimatfp/
    .
    If you click on previous question on the ewtn page you will come up with
    http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=341999&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
    Since the entire website is in Spanish and I speak only a little Spanish (enough to know that sadly, the transcript is accurate), I had trouble tracking down the unnamed man -- but I found him! He is Monsignor João Scognamiglio Clá Dias
    seen here
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil

    Quotes from video and why I call it "shocking":
    “May you spend your day avidly and anxiously desiring to have an encounter
    We must unite ourselves with Plinio to the point that we no longer have our mentality, our spirit, our intelligence, our will, our sensibility functioning except as I no longer live, it is Doctor Mr. Plinio who lives in me.”

    Thank you for the link, Nadir. I will look at it.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 12:08:13 PM »
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  • Hi Nadir,
    At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be
    around 6:55
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 08:52:26 PM »
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  • Where is the evidence for child trafficking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?
    .
    The websites links you give contain little more than hearsay, and still from the same limited group people with no real evidence.
    .
    I am not saying that what you believe is untrue. But you need to provide better information than is available. Some of this stuff dates from the early 80's. It's taking an awful long time to come out. Compare with that the wealth of information and documentation we have for example on Opus Dei.
    .
    I am not a supporter of TFP.
    The above is what you deleted from my quote. 
    It's not the first occasion you have ignored my questions, both here and on the other thread on the same topic. It seems that you cannot produce evidence for your quite grevous accusations. Obviously, if you could you would, so it seems a waste of time to continue. 

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
    « Reply #14 on: May 15, 2018, 12:33:59 PM »
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  • The above is what you deleted from my quote.
    It's not the first occasion you have ignored my questions, both here and on the other thread on the same topic. It seems that you cannot produce evidence for your quite grevous accusations. Obviously, if you could you would, so it seems a waste of time to continue.
    Actually Nadir, I have repeatedly responded to your questions. It appears that I am the one who is wasting my time because you appear to be neither reading nor responding to my posts. One example among many:

    Hi Nadir,
    At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be
    around 6:55
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

     

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