Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Jean Delacroix on May 08, 2018, 07:15:00 PM

Title: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Jean Delacroix on May 08, 2018, 07:15:00 PM
After browsing the other thread on Plinio Correa de Oliveira, I decided to look into the matter to see if there were two sides to the story. A Cathinfo post in November, 2017, raises some concerns about the legitimacy of the information presented in the previous thread. Below is the relevant information from the user Incredulous about the issue. I know normally this would be a response in the other thread, but given it is so comprehensive and refutes objections cast against de Oliveira, I figured it'd be best to create a new thread entirely.  

Biography of Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
A Life Dedicated to Combat
Atila Sinke Guimarães
Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (1908-1995) was born into two traditional Brazilian families, his mother’s family from São Paulo – Ribeiro dos Santos – and his father’s from Pernambuco – Corrêa de Oliveira. The former was known for its social distinction, the latter for its intelligence and oratory skills. Plinio inherited the characteristics of both families.

(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Legionario.jpg)
When young, Plinio was the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
After being formed in the Jesuit school of São Paulo and receiving a degree in Law, he entered the Catholic Movement and became the leader of the Marian Congregations in Brazil. The force of this Movement was such that in 1934 it elected Plinio, at age 24, to the National Congress, making him not only the country’s youngest representative, but also the one who received the most votes. In the House he fought to defend the civil rights of the Church and to pass laws, which for a long time upheld Catholic principles and institutions in the country.

Subsequent to his term in the House, he earned a chair in History of Civilization at the Law Faculty of São Paulo and another in Modern and Contemporary History at the Catholic Pontifical University, also in São Paulo.

In 1933, he was asked by the Cardinal of São Paulo to direct the Archdiocesan weekly journal O Legionário (The Legionary). For many years he was its editor and gathered around him a group of distinguished writers who followed him on a lifetime journey. From a simple Archdiocesan bulletin the paper was transformed in the late ‘30s and ‘40s into the most influential Catholic organ of the country.

The writers of O Legionário became famous for their pugnacious stand against Communism, nαzιsm and Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, as well as for defending Christian Civilization and championing a culture coherent with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. In the religious sphere, they combated the nascent Progressivism, which was rising from the ashes of Modernism with the same poison, but new tactics, higher ambitions and a more prudent posturing.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Meyer.jpg)
Fr. Castro Mayer alongside Prof. Plinio and theLegionário team of writers
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
Those writers considered themselves continuers of the ultramontane movement of the 19th century in Europe. Among others, two priests joined the group: Fr. Geraldo Sigaud and Fr. Antônio de Castro Mayer.

In 1940, Prof. Plinio was chosen to be president of Catholic Action in São Paulo. From this post, he carefully watched the insidious progressivist infiltration into the religious milieu. By 1943 he fully realized its maneuvers and wrote a book denouncing its strategy – In Defense of the Catholic Action(Em Defesa da Ação Católica). Later he described the launching of that book as a kamikazeoperation: he delayed the influence of Progressivism in Brazil, but blew up his own career along with the target.

Indeed, the Cardinal of São Paulo who favored his work died and, after the short term of another, a progressivist took his place in 1944. Prof. Plinio lost the presidency of Catholic Action and the direction of O Legionário. A phase of persecution and ostracism began.

He and the two mentioned priests agreed to continue the Counter-Revolution despite the consequences. Sometime later, Fr. Sigaud was made Bishop, followed by Fr. Castro Mayer. The union of the three was so strong that each Bishop adopted in his coat-of-arms the rampant lion Prof. Plinio had chosen to symbolize his fight.

A new monthly paper, edited and published in São Paulo with the approval of Castro Mayer, now Bishop of Campos, took the name Catolicismo(1951) and recommenced the public fight. The Catolicismo group attracted younger persons, who drew in yet others. With this growing movement, in 1960 he founded the Brazilian Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property – the TFP.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_1959_RCR.jpg)

Published in 1959 Revolution and Counter-Revolutionbecame the handbook for the TFPs everywhere
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
To provide guidelines for that group, in 1959 Prof. Plinio wrote Revolution and Counter-Revolution (http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0038/) – R-CR, which became his masterpiece. In it he analyzed the Revolution’s historical process that started in the Middle Ages. The Renaissance and Humanism were its first manifestations; later it generated Protestantism, the French Revolution and Communism.

He also described its later phases: namely, the Fourth Revolution (the Cultural Revolution of the ‘60s), which tends toward Tribalism (http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/j028htTribalism_PCO.htm) and a Pentecostal religion; the metamorphosis of Communism after the dissolution of the USSR; the infiltration of Progressivism in the Church, which changed the focus of the R-CR fight. Now, it had to be fought inside the Church.

The ideals of R-CR extended to other countries. In 1995, at his death, there were TFPs and similar organizations in 26 countries.

In the early ‘60s, Brazil was threatened by Communism, supported by Progressivism in the Church. Both were proponents of a socialist land reform to destabilize farmers, the backbone of the country's economy. With economist Mendonça de Freitas, Prof. Plinio wrote a book against land reform and invited the Bishops to sign it: Agrarian Reform – a Question of Conscience (1963). A success, the book became the pivot for an enormous public reaction against Communism. An undesired byproduct of this general dissatisfaction was a military coup that deposed the brazenly red president-to-be and installed a socialist dictatorship in the country.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Rome.jpg)
Prof. Plinio leaves Rome when he realizes he has done all he could at the Council
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
In 1959, John XXIII announced his intention to convene a Council. Prof. Plinio warned Archbishop Sigaud and Bishop Mayer that they should study and prepare themselves intensively or they would be defeated by the progressivists at the Council. Unfortunately, they did not heed his advice.

Notwithstanding, Prof. Plinio, along with about 20 laymen, accompanied the Bishops to Rome for the First Session with the hope that they would have a positive influence. With these laymen he organized two petitions, signed by hundreds of Bishops: one asking the Council to condemn Communism; the other asking the Pope to consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary as commanded in Fatima.

He sought out the Bishops of Communism-dominated countries asking them to affirm that the Church-Communism coexistence is against Catholic doctrine. Ukrainian Archbishop Ivan Bucko agreed to state this at the Council. Prof. Plinio wrote an intervention for him, but Msgr. Bucko changed his mind and did not address the topic in the Council. In May 1964, Prof. Plinio published that study: The Church and the Communist State: The Impossible Coexistence.

As the first session came to its end, Prof. Plinio realized that the progressivists were in complete control and suggested that the two Brazilian Bishops unmask their maneuvers. He proposed that they solemnly walk from the door of St. Peter’s Basilica to the main table in the conciliar hall, passing by the 2,300 Bishops assembled there. Then, before the whole assembly, they should expose the progressivist agenda for the Council and state that they were leaving in protest. Outside the doors, journalists would be waiting to interview them and spread the news. This dramatic rupture was meant to abort the entire spectacle of Vatican II. Unfortunately, the Bishops did not follow his advice.

He did not return to the Council, which followed that progressivist path until its end.

In 1965, Prof. Plinio wrote a book denouncing the popular new dialogue with communists: Unperceived Ideological Transshipment and Dialogue. Although the approach of the study was temporal, it also applied to the religious dialogue being promoted by John XXIII and Paul VI insofar as dialogue was used not to convert heretics but to make them comfortable in their errors.

After the Council’s closing, he received in Brazil the two returning Bishops. They had signed all its docuмents and told him, [paraphrasing]: “Now, we need to work on our group so they will accept the Council.” Prof. Plinio opposed the proposition, saying: “Your Excellencies can fry or cook the Council any way you want. I will never eat it.”
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Siguad.jpg)
Archbishop Sigaud tries to implement the Council - Prof. Plinio disagrees
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
There was no rupture, but this divergence projected shadows on their decades-old relationship.

Eventually, the two Bishops would break their agreement to stand together in the fight. Some years later Archbishop Sigaud distanced himself. He publicly supported the socialist military regime. His reason? “The military regime started the Reign of Mary predicted in Fatima”…

In the mid ‘70s a lawsuit against the TFP called on Bishop Mayer to testify. He made a sworn statement that throughout more than 40 years of close collaboration he had never seen anything in TFP or in Prof. Plinio’s actions or thoughts that went against Catholic doctrine.

However, in 1983, he took a public stand against Prof. Plinio. Why this change?

In the late ‘70s, a certain Fr. Fernando Rifan (http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/f017ht_Rifan_02.htm) – an expert in intrigue – was gaining the ear of Bishop Mayer. Rifan, who hated Prof. Plinio and the TFP, induced the Bishop to soften his position against Progressivism to the point that Bishop Mayer in some talks assumed the principles of John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. In Rome he was photographed holding hands with JPII. Consequently, his visits to São Paulo ceased.

In the early ‘80s, a rancorous high-school teacher, Orlando Fedeli, left the TFP because he felt his talents were not sufficiently recognized. At his rupture he wrote three letters disclosing “evidence” that Prof. Plinio had transformed the TFP into “a cult to worship himself and his mother.” Soon after he left, he sold his story to one of the largest Brazilian newspapers with close ties to Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ – O Estado de São Paulo – which started a boisterous defamatory campaign.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_profile.jpg)
Facing multiple defamatory campaigns with serenity and firmness
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
Encouraged by Rifan, Fedeli consulted with Bishop Mayer about a litany that two naïve teenagers had made in honor of Prof. Plinio’s mother. As soon as that litany was discovered, it had been forbidden by Dr. Plinio, but Fedeli did not inform Bishop Mayer of this “detail.” He presented the litany as if it were a prayer commonly said throughout the TFP with Prof. Plinio’s approval. Bishop Mayer condemned the litany as going against Catholic doctrine. This was in 1983.

This condemnation and Fedeli’s accusations were duly refuted and the docuмents were reviewed by famous theologians in Spain. They issued a verdict affirming the refutation to be sound and Bishop Mayer’s condemnation “poorly made and difficult to understand.” It judged that some of the litany’s ejaculations were “naïve, others ambiguous and yet others extravagant” and praised Prof. Plinio for having forbidden its recitation. But they considered it “exaggerated to label them as heterodox or blasphemous, not taking into consideration the relative nature of the language being used.” Bishop Mayer judged it prudent not to reply.

The Brazilian TFP published 2,000 copies of that refutation and full-page newspaper ads to inform the public of this judgment favoring Prof. Plinio.

In response, Fedeli went to Spain to try to bribe the principle theologian who made the review. He was duly shown out of the room. Fr. Rifan, who at the time was very close to the Society of St. Pius X, spread the same lies to this organization, which continues to propagate them among its priests and seminarians.

This campaign is just one in a list of many defamatory offensives made against Prof. Plinio.

The Brazilian TFP was also condemned at various times by the very progressivist Brazilian Bishops. Some of these condemnations were duly answered; others not, simply because they were too biased to be credible.

Altogether Prof. Plinio published 15 books.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_Divorce.jpg)
A TFP street campaign celebrating the defeat of divorce
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
He also spearheaded many petition drives carried out by the TFP including:
[/font][/size]

[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
It was Prof. Plinio who asked Arnaldo Xavier da Silveira to study Paul VI’s New Mass (1969) as well as the possibility of a heretic Pope. Silveira’s book was published inPortuguese (http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_612_AX-Port.pdf) (1972) and in French (1975). [An English version is available here] (http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/WebSources/B_612_AX-English.pdf)

After Paul VI launched Liberation Theology in Medellin, Colombia (1968), Prof. Plinio made several campaigns against this new thrust of communist infiltration in the Church.

In 1974 he wrote a position of resistance against the Vatican Ostpolitik, that is, its collaboration with the communist regimes. This Declaration of Resistance (http://www.traditioninaction.org/bestof/bst004plinio.htm), which made him the pioneer of Catholic Resistance, was published in 21 newspapers in 10 countries.

In 1982 he asked me to write and publish a collection analyzing Vatican II, which I did (http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/000_Index.html) under his guidance and encouragement.

Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira was the Catholic giant who, for many decades, held Communism at bay in South America. He also held back the advance of Progressivism in the Church as much as he could.

One aspect that official biographies of this Catholic thinker and man of action do not address is the moral and physical sufferings Prof. Plinio endured.

In the mid ‘70s, seeing how worldly and lukewarm TFP members had become, he offered his life to Our Lady to redeem that situation. Some days later, on February 3, 1975, he was in a serious car accident, suffering a broken hand, arm, leg and hip as well as severe injuries to his eyelids, lips and teeth. These graves lesions demanded multiple surgeries, causing him enormous moral and physical sufferings. The arm, leg and hip surgeries had to be made twice, still without success. The effects of that accident remained with him to the end of his days, obliging him to rely on crutches or a wheelchair.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_ccidente.jpg)
A tragic car accident that won more
20 years of fight for the TFPs
[size={defaultattr}][font={defaultattr}]
This suffering bought 20 more years of life for the TFPs. Toward the end, however, he confided to some friends: “If I were not in a wheelchair, they would expel me from the TFP.” He was referring to the directors who in theory followed his orientation, but in practice moved the TFP to a position of indifference and mediocrity.

When he was dying in the hospital in 1995, those directors lost no time in sending a letter (http://www.traditioninaction.org/Questions/A004_tfp.htm#Q6)to the Cardinal Primate of Brazil, committing the TFP not to speak publicly against Vatican II, the New Mass or the Pope.

A few years after his death, a split among his followers over the question of authority took place. Today, one faction – which includes the American TFP – upholds that same agreement with the Vatican; the other completely adhered to the Conciliar Church. Many members of the latter became priests and have comfortable ecclesiastical careers.

Sadly, both sides had become weary of the fight against Progressivism, had reduced Prof. Plinio to a museum artifact and merged – in different ways and degrees – with that same enemy against which Prof. Plinio had fought his entire life.
[/font][/size]
(http://www.traditioninaction.org/Collection/Images/E001_PCOlg.jpg)
With his symbol the rampant lion
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 10, 2018, 01:12:52 PM
Of course there is "another side to the story." Cult groups are skilled in pys-ops, and they also monitor discussion sites to cover up their dark side.

Check this out: Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the Catholic Church in Brazil and Venezuala.
   
       "In its 23rd General Assembly, April 10 to 19, 1985, the Bishops approved in plenary session a notice regarding the TFP. It therefore has all the official character of an Assembly of the Bishops of Brazil in Conference, and not simply a press release. The notice reads as follows: "Its esoteric character, religious fanaticism, the cult given to the personality of its founder and head, the abusive use of the name of Most Holy Mary, according to circulated information, cannot in any way merit the approval of the Church. "We lament the difficulties flowing from a civil society which presents itself as a Catholic religious entity, without a tie to the legitimate pastors.
        "This being the case, the Bishops of Brazil exhort Catholics not to enroll in the TFP, and not to collaborate with it.
        "The above stated was signed by +Dom Raymundo Damasceno Asas, Secretary-General of the Conference on National Bishops of Brazil on April 23, 1997."
        Immaculate Heart Messenger, ed. Father Robert J. Fox. January - March 1998 edition p. 29.
   
       In 1984 the local T.F.P. branch was outlawed in Venezuela, accused by a special parliamentary commission of being a "cult ... which warps the minds of young people, turns its members into fanatics and brainwashes them".
        Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o sètta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece
        http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TFP-AmericaNeedsFatima.htm

   Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
    https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
           
        TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.

        Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.

        According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud.
                           
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Ladislaus on May 10, 2018, 02:06:15 PM
Of course there is "another side to the story." Cult groups are skilled in pys-ops, and they also monitor discussion sites to cover up their dark side.

And, then, conversely, praiseworthy groups are very often attacked and vilified as "cult groups" by their enemies.  SSPX and most Traditional Catholic groups have at one point or another been smeared as "cults".  Hard to say, then, isn't it?

You cite the Novus Ordo Bishops condemning TFP in 1985 and 1997.  I don't know if this means much, as any Traditional group they would likely consider a cult.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 10, 2018, 05:10:51 PM
And, then, conversely, praiseworthy groups are very often attacked and vilified as "cult groups" by their enemies.  SSPX and most Traditional Catholic groups have at one point or another been smeared as "cults".  Hard to say, then, isn't it?

You cite the Novus Ordo Bishops condemning TFP in 1985 and 1997.  I don't know if this means much, as any Traditional group they would likely consider a cult.
Yes, I thought of that, but then did more research. But what are your thoughts regarding the civil authorities in Brazil accusing them of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.

  https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/ (https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/)

Do you find it concerning that the government accused them of "Concealment of minors"?

Do you find it odd that the person who started this thread in defense of TFP has never been a member of Cath Info until today? This is that person's very first post.
Title: The Crusader of the 20th Century: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira
Post by: Geremia on May 10, 2018, 05:34:00 PM
Have you read Roberto de Mattei's The Crusader of the 20th Century: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira (https://books.google.com/books?id=rJW5p1vDs4UC&pg=PP1)?
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on May 10, 2018, 07:45:17 PM
Do you find it concerning that the government accused them of "Concealment of minors"?
I searched for "Concealment of minors tfp" and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented? What evidence do you have for this accusation and why would you give more credibility to "the government" than to a great Catholic man who gave his life for the Catholic faith?


Quote
Do you find it odd that the person who started this thread in defense of TFP has never been a member of Cath Info until today? This is that person's very first post.

Not at all. Any person who has an interest would join in order to defend the honour of TFP and Prof Plinio. One does not have to prove one's credentials to join CathInfo.
.
The article presented seems make a lot of sense and portrays well the condition of the Church today and the terrible destruction that hes been perpetrated.
.
I really cannot understand what is your gripe. You don't seem to me to have spelled it out.
Is your gripe with TFP, with TIA, with Prof Plinio? I'm puzzled.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 11, 2018, 03:27:37 PM
I searched for "Concealment of minors tfp" and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented?
You bring up a good point; there is a huge difference between googling and doing research and examining the topic in context. Another problem is that 98% of the information on TIA's parent group, Tradition Family Property is in Portuguese.
If we could obtain the magazine Fidelity's May 1989 issue, we could both agree that TFP was condemned by the civil authorities for “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors."
Lacking that, we are at an impasse. You choose to trust TIA's parent group TFP when they deny involvement in child-trafficking. Having read multiple reports of those who were tricked by TFP and who left, I don't.

According to this website:
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/

the following information was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
   
    TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.

    Young men were alleged to have been deceitfully recruited by TFP, to be trained in their academies as “warrior monks” for the cause.

    According to the Brazilian government, TFP sought to obtain legal guardianship over the minor children of parents dedicated to TFP and then turned their sons against both them and the mainstream church, regarded by TFP loyalists as an institutional fraud
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Ladislaus on May 11, 2018, 05:53:28 PM
Well, again, my impression of the TFP group here in the States is that they're a bunch of well-intentioned Traditionally-minded Catholics who are struggling with the Crisis just like everyone else.  There's never been any indication that they worship Plinio or his Mom.  Are they devoted to him?  Yes, to an extent, but no more so than many Traditional Catholics are to Archbishop Lefebvre.  Not a few Traditional Catholics have felt that +Lefebvre and +de Castro Mayer were the two witness in the Book of Revelation (I've heard that said).

I'd need more than just the activities of some rogue members of TFP before I could make a judgment about the entire group.  What's key in my mind is that Plinio tried to ban The Litany.  One could look at the SSPX from the outside, talk about all the splinter groups (various sedevacantists and even self-proclaimed popes like Pius XIII and Pope Michael) and make the same kinds of allegations against Traditional Catholics at large.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on May 11, 2018, 06:26:28 PM

Quote
there is a huge difference between googling and doing research and examining the topic in context. Another problem is that 98% of the information on TIA's parent group, Tradition Family Property is in Portuguese.

I didn't "google" but if you have done the research you should be able to come up with answers to my questions and provide evidence for your accusations. Do you have a problem with Portuguese?

Quote
You choose to trust TIA's parent group TFP when they deny involvement in child-trafficking. Having read multiple reports of those who were tricked by TFP and who left, I don't.
Nowhere have I said that I trust TFP. In fact I am most uncomfortable with their style. Just provide the evidence for the accusations you are making, that is what I ask. It is for you to provide the evidence. 



Quote
According to this website:
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
the following information was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
Again, you can only come up with this site and unity publishing. In Christian Charity, provide the evidence or stop making unfounded accusations. These articles are all allegation, accusation and "according to the Brazilian government". 
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 13, 2018, 05:06:52 PM
. These articles are all allegation, accusation and "according to the Brazilian government".
TIA's parent group TFP was condemned by the Catholic Church in two nations, and condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil where both TFP and TIA originated -- for cнιℓd тrαffιcking. Several former members have spoken out against them, knowing well how risky it is to do so when leaving a cult.
http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773
http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/index.php/2010/07/i-still-think-p/
http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/FatimaCult.html
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb17.htm
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=342002
and then there is this shocking video:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAI89V1sV7Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAI89V1sV7Q)
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on May 14, 2018, 01:11:37 AM
TIA's parent group TFP was condemned by the Catholic Church in two nations, and condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil where both TFP and TIA originated -- for cнιℓd тrαffιcking. Several former members have spoken out against them, knowing well how risky it is to do so when leaving a cult.
http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773
http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/index.php/2010/07/i-still-think-p/
http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/FatimaCult.html
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb17.htm
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=342002
and then there is this shocking video:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAI89V1sV7Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAI89V1sV7Q)
Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation. How much credibility can we give it?
.
Where is the evidence for cнιℓd тrαffιcking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?
.
The websites links you give contain little more than hearsay, and still from the same limited group people with no real evidence.
.
I am not saying that what you believe is untrue. But you need to provide better information than is available. Some of this stuff dates from the early 80's. It's taking an awful long time to come out. Compare with that the wealth of information and docuмentation we have for example on Opus Dei.
.
I am not a supporter of TFP.
.
BTW this has all been fought over on CathInfo and the jury is still out.
See here: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/america-needs-fatimatfp/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/america-needs-fatimatfp/)
.
If you click on previous question on the ewtn page you will come up with
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=341999&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 14, 2018, 11:39:16 AM
Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation. How much credibility can we give it?
.
BTW this has all been fought over on CathInfo and the jury is still out.
See here: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/america-needs-fatimatfp/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/america-needs-fatimatfp/)
.
If you click on previous question on the ewtn page you will come up with
http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=341999&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=
Since the entire website is in Spanish and I speak only a little Spanish (enough to know that sadly, the transcript is accurate), I had trouble tracking down the unnamed man -- but I found him! He is Monsignor João Scognamiglio Clá Dias
seen here
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil

Quotes from video and why I call it "shocking":
“May you spend your day avidly and anxiously desiring to have an encounter
We must unite ourselves with Plinio to the point that we no longer have our mentality, our spirit, our intelligence, our will, our sensibility functioning except as I no longer live, it is Doctor Mr. Plinio who lives in me.”

Thank you for the link, Nadir. I will look at it.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 14, 2018, 12:08:13 PM
Hi Nadir,
At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be
around 6:55
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on May 14, 2018, 08:52:26 PM
Where is the evidence for cнιℓd тrαffιcking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?
.
The websites links you give contain little more than hearsay, and still from the same limited group people with no real evidence.
.
I am not saying that what you believe is untrue. But you need to provide better information than is available. Some of this stuff dates from the early 80's. It's taking an awful long time to come out. Compare with that the wealth of information and docuмentation we have for example on Opus Dei.
.
I am not a supporter of TFP.
The above is what you deleted from my quote. 
It's not the first occasion you have ignored my questions, both here and on the other thread on the same topic. It seems that you cannot produce evidence for your quite grevous accusations. Obviously, if you could you would, so it seems a waste of time to continue. 
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 15, 2018, 12:33:59 PM
The above is what you deleted from my quote.
It's not the first occasion you have ignored my questions, both here and on the other thread on the same topic. It seems that you cannot produce evidence for your quite grevous accusations. Obviously, if you could you would, so it seems a waste of time to continue.
Actually Nadir, I have repeatedly responded to your questions. It appears that I am the one who is wasting my time because you appear to be neither reading nor responding to my posts. One example among many:

Hi Nadir,
At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be)
around 6:55
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on May 15, 2018, 07:56:45 PM
Actually Nadir, I have repeatedly responded to your questions. It appears that I am the one who is wasting my time because you appear to be neither reading nor responding to my posts. One example among many:

Hi Nadir,
At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be)
around 6:55
I have reread the thread and I can find no answers to the questions I have asked.
.
Here they are:

From Reply 5: I searched for "Concealment of minors tfp" and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented. What evidence do you have for this accusation and why would you give more credibility to "the government" than to a great Catholic man who gave his life for the Catholic faith?
.
And
.
I really cannot understand what is your gripe. You don't seem to me to have spelled it out.
 Is your gripe with TFP, with TIA, with Prof Plinio? I'm puzzled.

.
And from Reply 10:
Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation. How much credibility can we give it?
 .
 and

Where is the evidence for cнιℓd тrαffιcking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?

Maybe you sincerely think you have answered my questions by providing a few links and videos. I can't see the answers. Maybe you can identify your answers by quoting the reply numbers as I have.

In regard to your other question. I have watched the video which deals with an altogether different topic and so is irrelevant to questions I have asked. You read into it something which is absent. This seems to be a particular habit of yours, 

May I suggest a good examination of conscience and a good Confession paying particular attention to the eighth commandment.
.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: PG on May 15, 2018, 09:46:05 PM
Hi Nadir,
At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be
around 6:55
Thank you for doing so much work on the TFP.  I find this extremely useful information.  In fact, I have been ignorant of the TFP.  I recognized names, and had a very vague knowledge of this, but this is very important information to know.  +Aquinas admits in the video that the tfp has an abnormal cult like devotion to plinio, and he avoided them as a result.  
The pope is a heretical superior manipulated by the college of cardinals(ʝʊdɛօ-masonry), and the lay college(tfp) are orthodox inferiors manipulated by the mother-son plinio duo(ʝʊdɛօ-masonry).  
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 16, 2018, 03:26:43 PM
Thank you for doing so much work on the TFP.  I find this extremely useful information.  In fact, I have been ignorant of the TFP.  I recognized names, and had a very vague knowledge of this, but this is very important information to know.  +Aquinas admits in the video that the tfp has an abnormal cult like devotion to plinio, and he avoided them as a result.  
The pope is a heretical superior manipulated by the college of cardinals(ʝʊdɛօ-masonry), and the lay college(tfp) are orthodox inferiors manipulated by the mother-son plinio duo(ʝʊdɛօ-masonry).  
Well said. And I think we know who the ultimate manipulator is.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 16, 2018, 03:53:34 PM
I have reread the thread and I can find no answers to the questions I have asked.
.
Here they are:

From Reply 5: I searched for "Concealment of minors tfp" and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented. What evidence do you have for this accusation and why would you give more credibility to "the government" than to a great Catholic man who gave his life for the Catholic faith?
.
And
.
I really cannot understand what is your gripe. You don't seem to me to have spelled it out.
 Is your gripe with TFP, with TIA, with Prof Plinio? I'm puzzled.

.
And from Reply 10:
Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation. How much credibility can we give it?
 .
 and

Where is the evidence for cнιℓd тrαffιcking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?

Maybe you sincerely think you have answered my questions by providing a few links and videos. I can't see the answers. Maybe you can identify your answers by quoting the reply numbers as I have.

In regard to your other question. I have watched the video which deals with an altogether different topic and so is irrelevant to questions I have asked. You read into it something which is absent. This seems to be a particular habit of yours,

May I suggest a good examination of conscience and a good Confession paying particular attention to the eighth commandment.
.
Nadir asks:
“Where is the evidence for cнιℓd тrαffιcking? It is not a minor offense. Can you present it?”
And Nadir asks the same question again in a different format.
“I searched for ‘Concealment of minors tfp’ and came up with nothing except the two sites you have presented. What evidence do you have for this accusation and why would you give more credibility to "the government" than to a great Catholic man who gave his life for the Catholic faith?

My response: This information was presented in an earlier post. Plinio Correa de Oliveira’s group, TFP, was condemned by the civil authorities in Brazil. This was reported by investigator Thomas Case in Fidelity, the monthly organ of the highly conservative Ultra-Montanists in its May 1989 issue.
    TFP had been repeatedly accused by the Brazilian authorities of “inducement to flight, reckless transfer, and concealment of minors”–and this despite TFP’s own slavish devotion to the military regime.
https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/


Nadir asks:
“Cera, the untitled video you find "shocking" is a series of 3 photo images of an unnamed man, while the speech is of an (the same?) unnamed man, with a subscript in English. Can you vouch that the script is an accurate translation?”

My response: I have already responded to this. Yes, I know enough Spanish, and he speaks slowly enough that I know it is an accurate translation. If you do know enough Spanish, simply take the portion of the speech in which Monsignor João Scognamiglio Clá Dias of the Plinio-worshipping TFP offshoot, “Heralds of the Gospel” says “Let it no longer I who live but Plinio in me who lives” and use Google Translate or ask a friend who speaks Spanish if that is truly what is being said.

 Nadir asks
 “Is your gripe with TFP, with TIA, with Prof Plinio?”

You already know the answer to this which was in the OP:
I used to be a fan of Tradition in Action until I noticed that they have the founder of their parent organization, Tradition Family and Property all over their site, and ooze with admiration for Plinio Correa de Oliveira. Plinio taught of himself that "Next to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dr. Plinio is most loved by God. Hence, St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel." This is from a former member whose entire statement is here:
https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/plinio-correa-de-oliveira/
Some highlights:
During the period of training which I received, I was taught:
   *  Dr. Plinio will never die. When his mission on earth is fulfilled, he will walk into an earthly paradise and then ascend into heaven.
   *  Dr. Plinio's mission is to defeat "the revolution," the Communistic and/or demonic forces which are corrupting the human race. He is the "pilgrim of justice" sent by God for this purpose.
   *  Next to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dr. Plinio is most loved by God. Hence, St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.
   *  Dr. Plinio has the power to read a man's soul in order to determine if he possesses "Tau," the vocation and quality to fight the revolution. He is even supposed to be able to make this determination from viewing a photograph. "Tau" can be found only in males.
   * Members of the TFP are required to pledge their allegiance to Dr. Plinio. They make a consecration of slavery to the Blessed Mother and to Dr. Plinio. So highly regarded is Dr. Plinio that we were encouraged to kiss one of his hats that had come into our possession. And we kept a special room set aside for him where we had a special bed raised on a platform above the floor.

Nadir, I will pray for you if you are truly seeking the truth about this problem. And I will pray even harder for you if you are yourself a Plinio-worshipper.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on May 16, 2018, 03:55:24 PM
Actually Nadir, I have repeatedly responded to your questions. It appears that I am the one who is wasting my time because you appear to be neither reading nor responding to my posts. One example among many:

Hi Nadir,
At the old CathInfo link you provided I found this video which I think provides a balanced view of TFP. Let me know what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd85KMQte80&feature=youtu.be)
around 6:55
Nadir, did you ever check out this video. I think you will find that it gives a balanced view of the problem.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on May 16, 2018, 04:53:45 PM
Nadir, did you ever check out this video. I think you will find that it gives a balanced view of the problem.
See Reply 15 penultimate paragraph. I appreciate your prayers for me. I do need them.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Alan on October 31, 2018, 03:59:24 AM
I believe those accusations were the works of the devil.
Because he couldn't find faults with the teachings and publications of the TFP, he spreaded ridiculous calumnies about them which were not based on evidence.
Our Lord said you can know something by its fruits. The fruits are always correlated with the sanctity of a soul. The TFP actually has done a lot of good for the Church - for examples: Annual Public Rosary Rally, Promotion of the Rosary, Promotion of devotion to Our Lady, etc.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Ladislaus on October 31, 2018, 09:11:09 AM
I believe those accusations were the works of the devil.
Because he couldn't find faults with the teachings and publications of the TFP, he spreaded ridiculous calumnies about them which were not based on evidence.
Our Lord said you can know something by its fruits. The fruits are always correlated with the sanctity of a soul. The TFP actually has done a lot of good for the Church - for examples: Annual Public Rosary Rally, Promotion of the Rosary, Promotion of devotion to Our Lady, etc.

While I cannot say that the substance of all criticisms against TFP are false, I have in fact seen a number of calumnies against them exposed.

Dom Aquinas said that the big issue Bishop Castro de Mayer had with TFP was the Plinio personality cult.  At least in the US, that "cult" doesn't seem to go beyond the same kind of devotion Traditional Catholics have towards Archbishop Lefebvre.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Markus on November 07, 2018, 01:16:38 AM
Do you believe the rumors that the TFP kill their wives and eat babies? I thought it was a joke, but some TFP people told me recently that these are actual claims some people have spread.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on November 07, 2018, 05:09:13 PM
Do you believe the rumors that the TFP kill their wives and eat babies? I thought it was a joke, but some TFP people told me recently that these are actual claims some people have spread.
Ha ha. Look up "fαℓѕє fℓαg."
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Ladislaus on November 07, 2018, 05:20:46 PM
Ha ha. Look up "fαℓѕє fℓαg."

And yet you believe everything you hear that backs up your disdain for TFP.  I'd love to find out the motivation for this crusade you have.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Ladislaus on November 07, 2018, 05:29:27 PM
Since the entire website is in Spanish and I speak only a little Spanish (enough to know that sadly, the transcript is accurate), I had trouble tracking down the unnamed man -- but I found him! He is Monsignor João Scognamiglio Clá Dias
seen here
https://www.thedailybeast.com/this-secret-catholic-exorcist-cult-in-brazil-is-making-a-deal-with-the-devil

I love how you smear TFP with the activities of the "Heralds of the Gospel".  Heralds broke off from TFP and the two groups are in complete enmity with one another.  That's like trying to smear SSPX with the activities of the SSPV.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 07, 2018, 06:12:36 PM
You do realize that you are all debating with one woman.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Ladislaus on November 07, 2018, 06:39:52 PM
You do realize that you are all debating with one woman.

What does that have to do with anything?  She's pasting in smear jobs, so they have to be addressed.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Neil Obstat on November 07, 2018, 07:22:37 PM
.
The minions of the devil don't need any human organization to tell them what to do because the devil puts ideas into their minds.
.
.
I believe those accusations were the works of the devil.  Because he couldn't find faults with the teachings and publications of the TFP, he spread ridiculous calumnies about them which were not based on evidence.

Our Lord said you can know something by its fruits. The fruits are always correlated with the sanctity of a soul.

The TFP actually has done a lot of good for the Church - for example:

Annual Public Rosary Rally, Promotion of the Rosary, Promotion of devotion to Our Lady, etc...
.
... Public demonstrations against blasphemies such as profanation of images of Our Lady and Our Lord, 
outspoken opposition to abortion and the overt practice of satanism such as in Oklahoma City recently as well as elsewhere,
against the showing of movies that are inimical to the true Faith of Catholics and immoral legislation... etc...
.
In many ways the TFP has picked up where the League of Decency left off, and that was 50 years ago! 
.
Perhaps it would be prudent for Cera to seek the services of a good exorcist.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on April 03, 2019, 04:39:26 PM
.
The minions of the devil don't need any human organization to tell them what to do because the devil puts ideas into their minds.
..
... Public demonstrations against blasphemies such as profanation of images of Our Lady and Our Lord,
outspoken opposition to abortion and the overt practice of satanism such as in Oklahoma City recently as well as elsewhere,
against the showing of movies that are inimical to the true Faith of Catholics and immoral legislation... etc...
.
In many ways the TFP has picked up where the League of Decency left off, and that was 50 years ago!
.
Perhaps it would be prudent for Cera to seek the services of a good exorcist.
Neil, I forgive your lack of charity and will pray for you.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Nadir on April 03, 2019, 08:02:38 PM
Neil, I forgive your lack of charity and will pray for you.
It's good you pray for Neil, seeing he has posted here since 30th January. I miss you, Neil. Where are you?
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 11, 2019, 12:31:00 PM
I think it's very interesting to see how this thread filled with supposed "exposés" about Plinio Correa de Oliveira (as well as the thread on "Atila and the TFP") appeared after Atila Guimaraes published his article on the SSPX Agent Liboro in Quito.
  
 Why divert attention? The practical aim of all of these "exposés" (by Cera and other SSPX followers) is to divert attention from the actual issue at hand. This is equivalent of throwing sand in the opponent's eyes to have time to flee and not be noticed.
  
 Let's actually get back to the heart of the matter. SSPX/Vox Catholica/Fr. Purdy have not responded to any of TIA's claims about them. Why don't they just come out and refute them? The more you attack Guimaraes and Oliveira personally, the more it shows that SSPX doesn't have a defense to present. 
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on April 11, 2019, 07:37:08 PM
I think it's very interesting to see how this thread filled with supposed "exposés" about Plinio Correa de Oliveira (as well as the thread on "Atila and the TFP") appeared after Atila Guimaraes published his article on the SSPX Agent Liboro in Quito.
  
Check your facts. This letter on CI was in 2014. Bishop Mayer is consoling a mother who, like so many others, lost her son to the TFP Plinio- worshiing cult.
SSPX and the TFP (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/sspx-and-the-tfp/msg351027/#msg351027)
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2014, 07:33:39 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth
Quote
Quote
This letter was published in the Campos daily, La Folha de Manhà in 1991; the original text, however, is dated 1984, two years after Bishop de Castro Mayer's break with TFP. It appeared in Le Sel de la Terre, [no. 28, Spring 1999], in an article entitled, "Docuмents sur la T.F.P".

Dear XXXXX,
I owe a response to your grieving letter of September 24, which, as the postmark indicates, you sent me on September 25.

In this case, I can only offer the sole advice: pray, pray much, above all the Rosary or at least the five decades of the Rosary, asking the Virgin Mother, Mediatrix of all graces, to enlighten your son and make him see that TFP is an heretical sect because, in fact, although they do not say or write it, TFP lives and behaves in accord with a principle which fundamentally undermines the truth of Christianity, that is, of the Catholic Church.

In fact, it is de fide that Jesus Christ founded His Church------destined to maintain on earth the true worship of God and to lead souls toward eternal salvation---as an unequal society, composed of two classes: one which governs, teaches and sanctifies, composed of members of the clergy, and the other---the faithful---who receive the teaching, are governed and sanctified. This is a de fide dogma.

St. Pius X wrote that the Church is, in its very nature, an unequal society, meaning that it comprises two orders of persons: shepherds and flocks, those who belong to the various ranks of the Hierarachy and the faithful multitude. These two orders are so completely distinct that the Hierarchy alone has the right and authority to guide and govern the members to the Church's ends, while the duty of the faithful is that of allowing themselves to be governed and to obediently follow the way given by the governing class (The Encyclical, "Vehementer", February 11, 1906) [7].

And the entire history of the Church, as can be seen in the New Testament, attests to this truth as a fundamental dogma of the Church's constitution. It was to the Apostles only that Jesus said: “Go and teach all nations”. Too, the Acts of the Apostles show us the life of the Church in the times following Jesus Christ. Because of this, it is an heretical subversion to habitually follow a lay person, ---therefore, not a member of the Hierarchy--- as the spokesman of orthodoxy. Thus, they do not look to what the Church says, what the Bishops say, rather what this or that one says.... Nor does it end there: this attitude------even if not openly avowed---actually positions the "leader" as the arbiter of orthodoxy, and is accompanied by a subtle but real mistrust of the hierarchy and of the clergy in general.

There is a visceral anticlericalism in TFP: everything that comes from the clergy is prejudicially received. Basically, it holds that all priests are ignorant, not very zealous or interesting, and have other such qualities. Well, then, keeping in mind the divine Constitution of the Church which was instituted by Jesus Christ, TFP's habitual anti-clericalism, latent, makes it an heretical sect, and therefore, as I have said, is animated by a principle contrary to the dogma established by Jesus Christ in the constitution of His Church.

Nevertheless, TFP had a healthy beginning. There was a certain evolution of the apostolate carried out by the bi-weekly newspaper of the Marian Congregation of St. Cecelia, titled, O Legionario. As a serious and well intentioned movement, it sought to strengthen the intellectual and religious formation of the members of that Congregation and, consequently, of the bi-weekly’s readers. It was influential throughout Brazil. That was the era of [its] obedience to Monsignors Duarte and Leme. I accompanied and approved its apostolate, also when it began to stray into an anticlerical spirit, which began by its consolidating its position and then reversing it by putting the clergy in tow behind a charismatic layman, with his monopoly on orthodoxy. Perhaps I gave it support beyond a licit point. I retracted it only when it became clear to me that my warnings were not being taken into consideration. They had become useless.

It is just to observe that the straying of certain members of the hierarchy, ....explains the “TFPistas'" scandal, but it doesn't justify the positions they came to take. Even less so, those of their leader, Plinio.

At this time, as I said at the beginning of this letter, the remedy is prayer. First, because without prayer nothing is obtained: “Ask,“ Our Lord says, “and you shall receive.” It is necessary to pray, because charismatic fervor produces a certain fanaticism: individuals become incapable of seeing objective reality, of perceiving even fundamental errors, because of this inversion of following a lay person instead of the legitimate Shepherds of the Holy Church. So much moreso when, as I have observed, members of the Hierarchy unfortunately and frequently utter words and take positions which any Catholic can see are dissonant from doctrine and from the guidance of the Church of the ages.....

I ask Our Lord that he grant you, and your entire family, a holy and happy Christmas and many years filled with God's grace.
I ask that you pray for me, Servant in Christ-Jesus,
Antonio de Castro Mayer, Bishop Emeritus of Campos

[Thanks to Suzanne Rini for the translation]



This pretty much spells it out, but also these links are very valuable to look at.

Quote
Quote
TFP "anti-cult" front-group, CESNUR

TFP Meets with Problems
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb14.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb14.htm)

The CESNUR critical page
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/eng.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/eng.htm)

The CESNUR case
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/ces2.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/ces2.htm)

The Secret Story of a Cult Apologist:
Massimo Introvigne, CESNUR and the Brazilian right-wing organization, "Tradition, Family and Property" (T.F.P.)
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb00.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb00.htm)

CESNUR's Director, Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ and TFP
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/sod0_i.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/txt/sod0_i.htm)

Introvigne's Role in Plinio's War on the "Anti-Cult Movement"
http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb19.htm (http://www.kelebekler.com/cesnur/storia/gb19.htm)



TFP is a cult.


Repo (https://www.cathinfo.com/sspx-resistance-news/sspx-and-the-tfp/4/?action=reporttm;msg=351027)
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 12:54:47 PM
All of these Plinio-worshipping/occult claims (which for some reason was recently "resurrected" in this thread in recent days) were disproven by Atila 35 years ago, when he published two books refuting them. Moreover, it is interesting that all of a sudden, you are raising up dust from 35 years ago, precisely when Atila put out his articles exposing the recent dishonest activities of SSPX/Fr. Purdy/Vox Catholica. Again, more sand in the eyes to have time to flee - this shows bad faith on your part.
 
Why all of the diversions? Here is the current issue at hand: Atila showed that Fr. Purdy - the self-proclaimed expert on the best translation of the Spanish devotion to Our Lady of Good Success - does not speak Spanish. Atila also showed that the docuмent put out by the nuns (which curiously has the same flavor of Fr. Purdy's sermons in Quito) made a serious mistake when it declared that the important feast of Feb. 2 is the Presentation (not the Purification). This goes against the tradition of the Church, as he showed through his quotes from Dom Gueranger, considered the best expert on liturgy in recent memory. 
 
As I mentioned before: the more you bring up all these diversions (which are going on in about 7 threads now by the way), the more it seems like you are trying to cover for Fr. Purdy's lack of scholarship. Why not stop with these diversions? Let Fr. Purdy come forward and clarify all of this for his followers by:
1) Proving that he actually speaks Spanish.
2) Proving that his docuмent does not in fact contradict the tradition of the Church.
 
Until then, the more you bring up personal attacks against Atila/Plinio, the more you prove to the public that Fr. Purdy has nothing to say because he was caught in two frauds.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Last Tradhican on April 12, 2019, 01:10:59 PM
All of these Plinio-worshipping/occult claims (which for some reason was recently "resurrected" in this thread in recent days) were disproven by Atila 35 years ago,
Don't worry about it, this happens all of the time here of CI with these types, just post your material to teach again and do not respond to them. God permits pests like these so we do our work. 

It's just two women making all of these posts, and they are just giving you easy balls to hit over the fence.  Besides, no one reads their garbage.
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Markus on April 12, 2019, 01:11:49 PM
Don't worry about it, this happens all of the time here of CI with these types, just post your material to teach again and do not respond to them. God permits pests like these so we do your work. It's just two women making all of these posts, and they are just giving you easy balls to hit over the fence.  Besides, no one reads their garbage.
The voice of reason here.  :applause:
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: CestMoiJeanneMarie on April 12, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
Last Tradhican, thank you for your very reasonable response. Like I said in other threads, it seems they have been sent to try to cover for Fr. Purdy. Where is Fr. Purdy to clear up this whole issue? Nowhere to be found. Perhaps he is hiding under the bed - no wait, he is hiding under the skirts of two ladies named Cera and Meg. 
Title: Re: Plinio Correa de Oliveira - Another Side of the Story
Post by: Cera on April 18, 2019, 03:29:07 PM
All of these Plinio-worshipping/occult claims (which for some reason was recently "resurrected" in this thread in recent days) were disproven by Atila 35 years ago, when he published two books refuting them. M
What are the two books?