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Author Topic: Omitting of the name of the pope from the Canon  (Read 4930 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Omitting of the name of the pope from the Canon
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2023, 04:37:10 AM »
Well, no, not in the sense of obeying his heretical wishes, yet we can, and as Catholics, we are bound to pray for him, which, per Ex Quo, is what we are doing when commemorate him in the Mass. The Church (Ex Quo) makes no distinction on the state of the pope's soul, clearly she teaches that to omit the name of the pope is an act of schism. It should also be clear and if not, one must convince themself that She thought the matter out thoroughly as always, and quite emphatically does not tolerate any exceptions. The idea that "she never saw this crisis coming or she would have added the exception..." is altogether absurd.

If one has the faith, then they know Ex Quo is a true teaching of the Church, it is a teaching of the Church's magisterium, hence, it can only ever be true always and everywhere. There is no expiration date for truth and truth has no mistakes. We cannot simply decide to omit his name because of our opinion of him, the reason for this is because the Church condemns doing that.
What if he's not actually the pope because of invalid ordination? Or heresy and apostasy?

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Omitting of the name of the pope from the Canon
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2023, 04:54:36 AM »
Sorry, i did not mean to derail this Una cuм discussion. Praying for a fallen away Catholic is one thing, but there are consequences, or should say reasonable conclusions, for calling your pope an apostate. Last time I looked it meant total rejection of the faith. You quote the Magesterium but, when your pope uses the same Magesterium, we are allowed as individuals to simply dissent? Calling him an apostate doesn't quite espouse unity.
Regardless of all that, the option of omitting his name was never imagined to begin with. But if it ever was an option, that option was taken away from us by the Church telling us that he is to be commemorated in the mass. The Church is telling us that omitting his name is not permitted. Honestly, this is not the least bit complicated.

She is saying too bad if we think he is no longer a member of the Church etc., or even if we think he is a very holy pope hence does not need to be prayed for. The Church is saying unconditionally that we commemorate him in the Mass, that's the reason we do it, because the Church told us that's what we must do so we do it. Period.

Also, yes I did indeed quote the Magisterium, which, as Lad and others have posted numerous times, is unable to be mistaken and is immune from error. If you think "your pope uses the same Magisterium," then either you do not know what the Magisterium is (which is my guess), or, believing that you know better, you willfully reject the Magisterium and omit his name anyway.



Offline Stubborn

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Re: Omitting of the name of the pope from the Canon
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2023, 05:09:36 AM »
What if he's not actually the pope because of invalid ordination? Or heresy and apostasy?
Yes St. Anthony, this question is as old as sedeism itself and the answer is the same. It's almost like asking what if you are praying for a soul who is in hell. But for a more complete answer, I will quote Fr. Wathen...

Snip from Who Shall Ascend? (PDF Attached)
Here, one of the faithful is talking to a sede priest.....

"....I can see that it is not necessary for you or for me to know whether Pope John Paul (Francis) is the legitimate successor of St. Peter. It doesn't hurt anything to pray for him in the Mass; it surely could not be wrong to do so, even if it is an honest mistake. Pope or not, God knows that he who is called John Paul II (Francis) needs our prayers, as all of us need God's mercy. But to attack the office of the papacy, and to separate oneself from it, is a serious thing to be wrong about.  But to attack the office of the papacy, and to separate oneself from it, is a serious thing to be wrong about.

This Sedevacantism is your opinion. But the Mass not yours, and I know you do not have the right to change a word of it. I have heard you say the same thing about those who brought in the New Mass. And now this is what you have done! You are not being fair, and, it seems to me, you are not being wise..."

Re: Omitting of the name of the pope from the Canon
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2023, 05:32:07 AM »
Note the words that the pope said and what the pope did not say. He did not say that obeying heretic popes is the chief and most glorious form of communion, he said the commemoration of him in the Mass is....just before going on to condemn those who do not commemorate him in the sentences right after this.

 
My point in adding that last sentence of Pope Benedict XIV (which was left out) is that including the name of the pope in the Canon of the Mass isn't merely to "pray for him" as some continue to assert.  It is "the chief and most glorious communion".

I never said his words meant "to obey heretic popes".  But, if a heretic or apostate pope must remain in the Canon, then it is still "the chief and most glorious communion" to name a heretic or apostate pope in the Sacrifice of the Mass.  I find it very hard to believe that Benedict XIV would agree with that statement.

I'm not getting into the una cuм "debate".  I'm only pointing out that there is much more to the una cuм prayer than just an intercessory prayer for the pope. This is pre-Vatican II proof of that.  


Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Omitting of the name of the pope from the Canon
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2023, 07:34:44 AM »
Yes St. Anthony, this question is as old as sedeism itself and the answer is the same. It's almost like asking what if you are praying for a soul who is in hell. But for a more complete answer, I will quote Fr. Wathen...

Snip from Who Shall Ascend? (PDF Attached)
Here, one of the faithful is talking to a sede priest.....

"....I can see that it is not necessary for you or for me to know whether Pope John Paul (Francis) is the legitimate successor of St. Peter. It doesn't hurt anything to pray for him in the Mass; it surely could not be wrong to do so, even if it is an honest mistake. Pope or not, God knows that he who is called John Paul II (Francis) needs our prayers, as all of us need God's mercy. But to attack the office of the papacy, and to separate oneself from it, is a serious thing to be wrong about.  But to attack the office of the papacy, and to separate oneself from it, is a serious thing to be wrong about.

This Sedevacantism is your opinion. But the Mass not yours, and I know you do not have the right to change a word of it. I have heard you say the same thing about those who brought in the New Mass. And now this is what you have done! You are not being fair, and, it seems to me, you are not being wise..."
Alright thanks. I currently attend at the SSPX where they keep his name (I assume the priest says it though I can't hear him). So all these 'groups' that remove his name are committing a sin? I will go re-read your earlier posts again.

Quote
It's almost like asking what if you are praying for a soul who is in hell.
Anything more on this?