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Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 36773 times)

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Offline SimpleMan

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2020, 09:58:17 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 20, 2020, 11:33:29 PM
Right.  Any non-catholic, even if baptized, can’t receive a sacrament because they aren’t/won’t submit to the authority of the Church/pope.  So they can’t have the benefits/graces of the sacrament.  How could they?
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This also applies if a catholic marries a non-catholic (even if both are baptized).  A sacrament requires BOTH persons to submit to church authority.  If there is a reason/approval for a mixed-marriage, then the couple can receive certain church blessings but they don’t/won’t have the full-time sacramental graces for the rest of their lives.  
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This is why mixed-marriages have been forbidden save for extreme circuмstances.  In the US it’s much more common for mixed marriages, because we're a Protestant country, but in catholic counties it’s much more unique (pre V2).  
I finally got around to digging out my Woywod/Smith canon law commentary (1917 CIC), and I'm finding no evidence of this.  I've attached what I did find.  W/S makes no such distinction, unless it's buried somewhere in their volumes and I didn't see it.

Please provide a source that says baptized non-Catholics, or even a Catholic dispensed to marry a baptized non-Catholic, does not and cannot confect a valid sacrament of matrimony.

I'm not particularly overjoyed that baptized non-Catholics can, as the Orthodox would say, "rend asunder the garments of Christ", by confecting a valid sacrament outside of the Church, but if the reality is what it is, so be it.  While baptism and matrimony do not strictly and in all cases require a priest with valid orders to confect, heretics and schismatics who have valid orders can also confect other sacraments validly (such as the Eucharistic liturgy).  If this weren't the case, no Orthodox Divine Liturgy would truly confect the Body and Blood of Christ.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2020, 10:16:58 AM »
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Please provide a source that says baptized non-Catholics, or even a Catholic dispensed to marry a baptized non-Catholic, does not and cannot confect a valid sacrament of matrimony.

Your own source says it.  pg2
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"The great mass of christians separated from the Catholic Church (i.e. protestants, heretics, schismatics...the Orthodox possibly being an exception because they "could" have valid priests) do not admit the teaching of the Church as to the sacramental character of marriage."
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Of course they don't.  They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage, nor do they desire one, because to accept that marriage is a sacrament (as the article continues) they would "have to admit...that the Church alone...has jurisdiction over the marriage contract."
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There are 3 different classes/questions raised here.
1)  Could an orthodox couple have a sacramental marriage, being that they don't recognize the Roman Church as being their spiritual authority?  I'd say "no".
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2) Could a protestant couple have a sacramental marriage, being they recognize no spiritual authority, except the Bible?  Obviously, no.
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3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".  If the couple isn't united in their decision to follow the Church's authority (since one of the spouses is non-catholic), then how can the couple have a sacramental marriage?  The non-catholic spouse doesn't even believe that sacraments exist or are beneficial!  It makes no sense that a sacrament could exist, which is why the pre-V2 church made it a REQUIREMENT to get approval for a mixed-marriage...because the spiritual ramifications of having a non-sacramental marriage were so dangerous.
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If a marriage with a non-catholic, baptized spouse were a sacrament, then why was special permission needed at all?  I think this is self-explanatory.
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Offline Stanley N

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2020, 10:27:19 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on October 02, 2020, 10:16:58 AM
They have no priests to give them a sacramental marriage
In Catholic theology a priest is not necessary for a sacramental marriage; the partners administer it to each other through the marriage contract.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2020, 10:34:12 AM »

Quote
In Catholic theology a priest is not necessary for a sacramental marriage; the partners administer it to each other through the marriage contract.

That's true, but Protestants don't believe marriage is a sacrament (if they believe in sacraments at all), so they can't bestow what they don't believe in.  (This presumes that both protestants were validly baptized).
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2020, 10:44:17 AM »

Quote
3) Could a "mixed" couple (1 catholic, 1 baptized non-catholic) have a sacramental marriage?  I'm not sure, but logically I would say "no".

SimpleMan, thanks for posting your research.  I just found a few articles from a canon lawyer and it seems to clear things up.  He's obviously using the new code of canon law, but it still seems correct to me.  Basically, what I wrote above is both true and false, depending on circuмstances.
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https://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2009/02/19/can-non-catholics-receive-the-catholic-sacrament-of-matrimony/
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It won't let me copy-paste, so here is a summary:
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An unbaptized person who marries a catholic = no sacrament.
A baptized non-catholic who marries a catholic, in the Church = possible sacrament.
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The baptized, non-catholic must have the proper marriage instruction, acceptance and belief in the sacrament for one to take place.  They have to "intend the same exclusivity, perpetuity and mutual self-giving that catholics must have, if his consent is to be valid."  (Added by me:  including the Church's teachings on contraception, children, etc).
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Therefore, if the baptized non-catholic didn't have good instructions, or didn't accept all Church teaching, or didn't vow to live the sacrament, then it wouldn't be valid.  So marriage prep is key.
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