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Author Topic: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?  (Read 35087 times)

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Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2020, 11:02:28 PM »
I was trying to highlight the case of a catholic marrying a non-Catholic outside of the Church.  In that case, there is no sacramental marriage, though there is a natural law marriage.  If the non-Catholic converts, then they would be obligated to get it blessed by the Church.
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If you have 2 non-catholics get a natural marriage, but one converts to the Faith, while the other is anti-Catholic and harsh towards the Faith, the convert could get "re-married" to a catholic.  It's called the Pauline Privilege, as it apparently was supported by St Paul, during the early days.  My explanation is simplistic, but this is what I've been told.
The Pauline privilege would only apply to non baptized persons. If the non Catholic was validly baptized and still hostile to the Catholic parties conversion then the Pauline privilege would not apply.   

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2020, 08:07:36 AM »
Isn't a mixed marriage only considered "valid" as a "natural law" marriage?  It surely isn't a sacramental marriage, so it's not valid, from a sacramental/Church aspect, but only valid from a human promise aspect.  This would all be true even if the couple was married by a priest, no?  He can bless the marriage, but it's still not sacramental.  If the couple didn't get Church approval, it would be a sin.  If the priest performed the ceremony without approval, it would also be a sin.
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Certainly if any catholic gets "married" by a non-Catholic (in any shape), that is not a catholic/sacramental marriage.  In fact, such an act would be a grave sin.  It would not be a marriage at all, neither natural law or sacramental.  The best the couple could hope for, spiritually speaking, would be if they stayed together and God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows.  But spiritually speaking, this would be the worst-case scenario for a catholic, only slightly better than co-habitating (but maybe, from a moral theology standpoint, the same grave sin as co-habitating).D
This is what I was taught, too.


Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2020, 08:09:15 AM »
I've never heard this.  I've only heard that a CATHOLIC COUPLE could marry themselves, if after 30 days a suitable pastor/ordinary cannot be found.  This is the canon law that Trads use to have supplied jurisdiction for marriages, as there aren't any orthodox pastors/ordinaries in existence.
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I have never heard this before.
Interesting.

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2020, 08:28:54 AM »
I don't mean to question your traditionalist bona fides, but some of this just doesn't sound right --- "valid from a human promise aspect", "God blessed them as fulfilling their natural vows" --- God does not bless people for sin.  It's not "slightly better than cohabitating", it is cohabitating.

Here is how I have always understood it:
This is what I was taught:
* Catholic marries Catholic with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage. Correct
* Catholic marries Catholic outside of canonical form (outside of the emergency situation where a priest cannot be had for a month) - invalid I was taught this is a valid sacramental marriage, but it receives no blessing from the Church. It is not advised.
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian with canonical form - valid sacramental marriage incorrect.  The sacrament passes from the catholic  woman to rhe catholic man and vice versa.  It cannot be recrived any other way.  So in this instance, in order to have correct canonical form a dispensation would have had to have been given by the Church.  The marriage would be blessed by the Church but no sacrament would be involved.
* Catholic marries non-Catholic Christian outside of canonical form - invalid correct
* Catholic marries non-Christian with canonical form (i.e., dispensation) - natural marriage but not sacramental same as above
* Catholic marries non-Christian outside of canonical form - invalid correct
* Two non-Catholic Christians marry - valid sacramental marriage incorrect
* Non-Catholic Christian marries non-Christian - natural marriage but not sacramental correct
* Two non-Christians marry - natural marriage but not sacramental (but if one spouse becomes a Catholic and the remaining non-Christian spouse will not live peaceably with them, the Catholic may remarry per the Pauline Privilege)  not sure on this one.

If any of this is incorrect, please show me how.
From what I was taught, basically:

2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved.

If a dispensation is granted the one Catholic to a mixed marriage, he can receive a blessing for his marriage and the Church recognizes it as valid.

All other options involving a Catholic are not valid within the Church.

Marriages of non-Catholics are valid.

Re: Do traditionalist bishops ever issue Declarations of Nullity?
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2020, 09:39:56 AM »
From what I was taught, basically:

2 catholics with correct matter, form and intent = valid sacramental marriage

All other options for the Catholic and non-catholic alike, no sacrament is involved. Then the Church must have changed her teaching (or possibly just discipline, or both), as I have always understood that when Catholics marry baptized non-Catholics with canonical form and dispensation/permission, a valid sacrament is confected.  I don't doubt, as you put it, that you were taught this, but just for my own edification, I'm going to check out Woywod/Smith so I will more fully understand.  This runs entirely counter to what I have always understood.  I fully recognize that it is possible to "understand wrong", even for many decades --- I realize many people are resistant to change what they have "always thought", but I'm not one of them.  Truth is truth regardless.

If a dispensation is granted the one Catholic to a mixed marriage, he can receive a blessing for his marriage and the Church recognizes it as valid.  Valid natural marriage, but even if it is between a Catholic and a baptized non-Catholic, not sacramental?

All other options involving a Catholic are not valid within the Church.

Marriages of non-Catholics are valid. Are you saying, then, that the marriage of two baptized non-Catholics is only a valid natural marriage, not sacramental?  And what about the Orthodox?