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Author Topic: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 24418 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2022, 07:58:18 AM »
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  • (Off topic) Yes, Barnhardt in her "absolutism" of Benevacantism is annoying. I do read her blog because she does have many other good points and good guests on the podcast. Getting better, but she doesn't really address the JQ and is stuck on her "Musloid" agenda which seems to be the origin of her claim to fame.

    Her Ivermectin info during the "pandemic", however was extremely helpful to many people.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #76 on: December 19, 2022, 08:19:30 AM »
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  • What are you talking about?  Nothing about a "Eucharistic miracle" requires "god"-like powers.  Per your scenario, Satan can simply reuse tissue from the same person for multiple such "miracles" (and likely would to make them more convincing).  And even human beings do genetic engineering right now.  While Satan is not god, the intellects of these fallen angels far surpass our wildest imagination.  So if human beings are capable of genetic engineering, that's probably not even 1% of what the demons can do in that area.

    True. The miracles could be of Satan, the "lying wonders" and "signs" of Matt. 24, 2 Th. 2. 

    As I said, these "miracles" put the pedal to the medal as it were, and, at least for me, just heighten or exacerbate the serious questions or issues brought on by the Novus Ordo. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #77 on: December 19, 2022, 08:20:13 AM »
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  • Simple Man,


    Which is why I say, if they are miracles, in the context of a disputed rite of questionable validity (the context Sean seems to be missing), they are a sign of the NO's validity, and - until I hear of miracles at a valid but illicit Orthodox or other valid liturgies - indicate that the priests and bishops who worship via the NO are true priests and bishops of the Catholic Church and their worship should not be avoided if there is not another place of fitting worship via the TLM available.

    Ok, but, as I suggested above,  I think it does cause to collapse like a house of cards the argument that the NO is "offensive to God and harmful to souls," at least to the extent that so it should be avoided as inherently evil or whatever the SSPX used to say and could not be resorted to to satisfy the Sunday obligation. 


    You raise a good argument above, and I hope that Bp. Williamson has somewhere addressed it. The problem does seem to be inherently contradictory, but maybe there's a reasonable explanation. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #78 on: December 19, 2022, 08:30:06 AM »
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  • Status disputationis:

    1) It was shown, contrary to your contention, that the purpose of a Eucharistic Miracle has nothing to do with God endorsing a liturgical rite, but (per St. Thomas) to promote belief in the Real Presence;

    2) You attempted to evade that necessary conclusion by contending that the NOM was not a “Catholic rite” (conflating that term with “Catholic theology”) to conclude that St. Thomas does not apply;

    3) After directing you to the CE to show you that a Catholic Rite, as that term is understood by the Church, is nothing more than prayers and ceremonies received and approved by the pope for use in the Church, I further pointed to the example of Archbishop Lefebvre (who led the steering committee on the irrelevant Ottaviani Intervention you keep pointing to) acknowledging that a Catholic can satisfy his Sunday obligation by attending a NOM (a position he could not have taken, we’re the rite not Catholic). 

    I further pointed out the exceeding unlikelihood that Lefebvre simply didn’t know what a Catholic rite was, or that he would say Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligations by attending a non-Catholic rite.

    4) The gratuitous and irrational response of your sedevacantist allies was not a theological response, but a statement of fact: that Lefebvre was simply wrong (an assertion without a demonstration).

    Because you lack clear thinking, you have conflated a number of indistinct ideas and impressions to arrive at your erroneous position, and resolved a priori to fend off any argument -with willfulness rather than doctrinal argumentation- to the contrary.

    I conclude by repeating that your mind lacks the precision to mettle in these matters, but because your mind perceives that assessment as an insult, your pride is triggered, leading to your ignorant obstinacy.

    Well, I leave you to it.

    So far as I can tell, nobody has been able to overcome this (despite Loudestmouth’s frothy arbitrary pronouncements).

    Unless someone has something new to add, I consider the case closed.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #79 on: December 19, 2022, 08:40:14 AM »
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  • So far as I can tell, nobody has been able to overcome this (despite Loudestmouth’s frothy arbitrary pronouncements).

    Unless someone has something new to add, I consider the case closed.


    From your quote of your post that was included in the response:

    Quote
    1) It was shown, contrary to your contention, that the purpose of a Eucharistic Miracle has nothing to do with God endorsing a liturgical rite, but (per St. Thomas) to promote belief in the Real Presence;


    2) You attempted to evade that necessary conclusion by contending that the NOM was not a “Catholic rite” (conflating that term with “Catholic theology”) to conclude that St. Thomas does not apply;

    3) After directing you to the CE to show you that a Catholic Rite, as that term is understood by the Church, is nothing more than prayers and ceremonies received and approved by the pope for use in the Church, I further pointed to the example of Archbishop Lefebvre (who led the steering committee on the irrelevant Ottaviani Intervention you keep pointing to) acknowledging that a Catholic can satisfy his Sunday obligation by attending a NOM (a position he could not have taken, we’re the rite not Catholic).

    Your responses on this discussion are a continuing begging of the question(s): a) is the NO a "Catholic rite," which, as your "3)" highlights, points to the question of whether Paul VI and the rest of them were popes who had to heeded and whose authority was not void per Paul IV's cuм Ex, and their rites could be treated as such (i.e, as void and non-Catholic).

    Sure, if you assume Paul VI was not a heretic and a pope whose directives weren't void leaving his mouth or hand, and then make the next logical step from that ASSUMPTION, the NO is a Catholic rite . . . true, you'd be on solid ground.

    But the coin is not in your cup - i.e., your begging on the questions hasn't been answered affirmatively, so you're still broke.



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #80 on: December 19, 2022, 08:43:42 AM »
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  • From your quote of your post that was included in the response:

    Your responses on this discussion are a continuing begging of the question(s): a) is the NO a "Catholic rite," which, as your "3)" highlights, points to the question of whether Paul VI and the rest of them were popes who had to heeded and whose authority was not void per Paul IV's cuм Ex, and their rites could be treated as such (i.e, as void and non-Catholic).

    Sure, if you assume Paul VI was not a heretic and a pope whose directives weren't void leaving his mouth or hand, and then make the next logical step from that ASSUMPTION, the NO is a Catholic rite . . . true, you'd be on solid ground.

    But the coin is not in your cup - i.e., your begging on the questions hasn't been answered affirmatively, so you're still broke.




    Never noticed before how Paul VI is a reversal or Paul IV. Interesting connection methinks. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #81 on: December 19, 2022, 08:48:42 AM »
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  • From your quote of your post that was included in the response:

    Your responses on this discussion are a continuing begging of the question(s): a) is the NO a "Catholic rite," which, as your "3)" highlights, points to the question of whether Paul VI and the rest of them were popes who had to heeded and whose authority was not void per Paul IV's cuм Ex, and their rites could be treated as such (i.e, as void and non-Catholic).

    Sure, if you assume Paul VI was not a heretic and a pope whose directives weren't void leaving his mouth or hand, and then make the next logical step from that ASSUMPTION, the NO is a Catholic rite . . . true, you'd be on solid ground.

    But the coin is not in your cup - i.e., your begging on the questions hasn't been answered affirmatively, so you're still broke.




    As has been explained repeatedly, the CE states a Catholic rite is nothing more that prayers and ceremonies approved for use in the Church, as the NOM was.

    I also showed Lefebvre’s acknowledgment that Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligation at the NOM, which he couldn’t have said were it not a Catholic rite.

    The best my opponents have done is either to say Lefebvre (and the CE) were wrong (uhh, ok?), or keep insisting-even in the face of a clear refutation- tgat tge rite isn’t Catholic.

    This tells me the debate is over.

    PS: Sede arguments are of no use here (Paul VI wasn’t pope; new rite is invalid), since Hewkonians cannot make use of them without departing from Lefebvre, and also because they rest upon no authoritative interpretations except those given them by sedes (not by the church) themselves.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #82 on: December 19, 2022, 08:57:42 AM »
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  • As has been explained repeatedly, the CE states a Catholic rite is nothing more that prayers and ceremonies approved for use in the Church, as the NOM was.


    PS: Sede arguments are of no use here (Paul VI wasn’t pope; new rite is invalid), since Hewkonians cannot make use of them without departing from Lefebvre’s, and also because they rest upon no authoritative interpretations except those given them by sedes (not by the church) themselves.

    You might not think this of any relevance, but it is relevant to me and many of us:



    Quote
    Quote from: Jerome on Daniel

    ". . .And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance (A) as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.

    tertullian.org

    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg743306/#msg743306

    So I stay you're begging . . . especially in light of what we've seen in the last 60 or so years (Great Apostasy?). Let the Holy Ghost guide each of us. 

    If this is just about the Hewkonians . . . ok. But it's not about them for me. Sorry to intrude on that argument. 

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #83 on: December 19, 2022, 09:05:26 AM »
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  • What are you talking about?  Nothing about a "Eucharistic miracle" requires "god"-like powers.  Per your scenario, Satan can simply reuse tissue from the same person for multiple such "miracles" (and likely would to make them more convincing).  And even human beings do genetic engineering right now.  While Satan is not god, the intellects of these fallen angels far surpass our wildest imagination.  So if human beings are capable of genetic engineering, that's probably not even 1% of what the demons can do in that area.
     And in either case, "it's a true, valid, God-given miracle", or "it's of Satanic origin", it gives us something to consider.  And, as I noted, anti-Catholic apologists could use the latter to debunk Lanciano, the liquefying blood of St Januarius, the miracle of the sun at Fatima, indeed, any miracle that, even by implication, asserts that Catholicism is true.

    But in the end, our faith is not dependent upon miracles that took place after the time of the Apostles.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #84 on: December 19, 2022, 09:40:39 AM »
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  • And in either case, "it's a true, valid, God-given miracle", or "it's of Satanic origin", it gives us something to consider.  And, as I noted, anti-Catholic apologists could use the latter to debunk Lanciano, the liquefying blood of St Januarius, the miracle of the sun at Fatima, indeed, any miracle that, even by implication, asserts that Catholicism is true.

    But in the end, our faith is not dependent upon miracles that took place after the time of the Apostles.
    Well said, but miracles have always been a part of our faith. A part we are not bound to believe in even if the Church approves it. Some miracles - imo - we'd be foolish to disbelieve, then there are other miracles like the NO miracles, we'd be foolish to believe - because miracles tend to draw people to the miracles, which means the NO miracles would lead people who believe them to be from God, into the NO.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #85 on: December 19, 2022, 10:49:45 AM »
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  • Here's a NOM Eucharistic 'Miracle' captured on live TV 



    Looks like the kind satanic event the Dimond Brothers describe in their 3 hour video on modern magicians


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #86 on: December 19, 2022, 11:10:45 AM »
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  • Here's a NOM Eucharistic 'Miracle' captured on live TV



    Looks like the kind satanic event the Dimond Brothers describe in their 3 hour video on modern magicians

    Interesting.  This looks kindof, oh, "creepy" to me.

    What's a bit strange is that the "Host" pops up abruptly and then vibrates.  I would expect the levitation done by God to be a bit more dignified in appearance.

    Someone pointed out that the video didn't surface until 6 years later and also the strangeness of the fact that no one at the altar reacted in the least bit to it.

    Offline Confiteor Deo

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #87 on: December 19, 2022, 11:12:11 AM »
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  • (Off topic) Yes, Barnhardt in her "absolutism" of Benevacantism is annoying. I do read her blog because she does have many other good points and good guests on the podcast. Getting better, but she doesn't really address the JQ and is stuck on her "Musloid" agenda which seems to be the origin of her claim to fame.

    Her Ivermectin info during the "pandemic", however was extremely helpful to many people.

    Her opinion on benevacantism is just another trad worldview. Almost all trad worldviews opinions are 'absolutist' .

    She did once adress the JQ very completely with the following post where even Bishop Williamson is positively mentioned: https://web.archive.org/web/20220521095100/https://www.barnhardt.biz/2021/10/22/special-guest-post-by-vanessa-the-joozle-bamboozle-conversions-covidism-post-conciliar-hijinks/

    But it seems that she has scrubbed this and therefore the JQ from her blog.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #88 on: December 19, 2022, 11:20:25 AM »
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  • Interesting.  This looks kindof, oh, "creepy" to me.

    So it appears to happen during the "Epiclesis" (given his hands over the Host).  It would be interesting to know which Epiclesis he's using.  So the briefer one in Eucharistic Prayers II-IV just asks the Holy Spirit to turn them into the Body and Blood of Christ (albeit after the consecration ... which is also the case in Eastern Rites).

    But the epiclesis for Eucharistic Prayer I reads:  "Be pleased, O God, we pray, to bless, acknowledge, and approve this offering in every respect;"

    So, if that were the case, are we to take it from this "miracle" that God approves this NOM offering "in every respect"?
    Found this:

    Did a Eucharistic Host Really Levitate on Live TV in 1999? Here's the Truth About the Viral Video - (churchpop.com)

    Personally, I couldn't help but notice that you cannot see the right portion...it is blocked from view.  

    Was this even "approved" by the V2 sect?

    Also, have any pre-V2 eucharistic miracles involve levitation?  I don't recall any...at least not the really well known ones.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
    « Reply #89 on: December 19, 2022, 11:31:55 AM »
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  • Found this:

    Did a Eucharistic Host Really Levitate on Live TV in 1999? Here's the Truth About the Viral Video - (churchpop.com)

    Personally, I couldn't help but notice that you cannot see the right portion...it is blocked from view. 

    Was this even "approved" by the V2 sect?

    Also, have any pre-V2 eucharistic miracles involve levitation?  I don't recall any...at least not the really well known ones.

    Yes, just saw this.  Also, the lack of reaction by anyone at the altar is a bit strange to me.  If I were there and saw the Host moving, I'd probably drop to my knees, at least after completing the main "Eucharistic Prayer" (i.e. Canon) believing that Our Lord was wanting to get our attention somehow.  Or you'd at least to a "double take" on what you saw to make sure you were seeing what you thought you were seeing.