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Author Topic: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles  (Read 32444 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2022, 08:43:42 AM »


From your quote of your post that was included in the response:

Your responses on this discussion are a continuing begging of the question(s): a) is the NO a "Catholic rite," which, as your "3)" highlights, points to the question of whether Paul VI and the rest of them were popes who had to heeded and whose authority was not void per Paul IV's cuм Ex, and their rites could be treated as such (i.e, as void and non-Catholic).

Sure, if you assume Paul VI was not a heretic and a pope whose directives weren't void leaving his mouth or hand, and then make the next logical step from that ASSUMPTION, the NO is a Catholic rite . . . true, you'd be on solid ground.

But the coin is not in your cup - i.e., your begging on the questions hasn't been answered affirmatively, so you're still broke.




Never noticed before how Paul VI is a reversal or Paul IV. Interesting connection methinks. 

Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2022, 08:48:42 AM »


From your quote of your post that was included in the response:

Your responses on this discussion are a continuing begging of the question(s): a) is the NO a "Catholic rite," which, as your "3)" highlights, points to the question of whether Paul VI and the rest of them were popes who had to heeded and whose authority was not void per Paul IV's cuм Ex, and their rites could be treated as such (i.e, as void and non-Catholic).

Sure, if you assume Paul VI was not a heretic and a pope whose directives weren't void leaving his mouth or hand, and then make the next logical step from that ASSUMPTION, the NO is a Catholic rite . . . true, you'd be on solid ground.

But the coin is not in your cup - i.e., your begging on the questions hasn't been answered affirmatively, so you're still broke.




As has been explained repeatedly, the CE states a Catholic rite is nothing more that prayers and ceremonies approved for use in the Church, as the NOM was.

I also showed Lefebvre’s acknowledgment that Catholics could fulfill their Sunday obligation at the NOM, which he couldn’t have said were it not a Catholic rite.

The best my opponents have done is either to say Lefebvre (and the CE) were wrong (uhh, ok?), or keep insisting-even in the face of a clear refutation- tgat tge rite isn’t Catholic.

This tells me the debate is over.

PS: Sede arguments are of no use here (Paul VI wasn’t pope; new rite is invalid), since Hewkonians cannot make use of them without departing from Lefebvre, and also because they rest upon no authoritative interpretations except those given them by sedes (not by the church) themselves.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2022, 08:57:42 AM »

As has been explained repeatedly, the CE states a Catholic rite is nothing more that prayers and ceremonies approved for use in the Church, as the NOM was.


PS: Sede arguments are of no use here (Paul VI wasn’t pope; new rite is invalid), since Hewkonians cannot make use of them without departing from Lefebvre’s, and also because they rest upon no authoritative interpretations except those given them by sedes (not by the church) themselves.

You might not think this of any relevance, but it is relevant to me and many of us:



Quote
Quote from: Jerome on Daniel

". . .And he shall crush the saints of the Most High, and will suppose himself to be able to alter times and laws." The Antichrist will wage war against the saints and will overcome them; and he shall exalt himself to such a height of arrogance (A) as to attempt changing the very laws of God and the sacred rites as well. He will also lift himself up against all that is called God, subjecting all religion to his own authority.

tertullian.org

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/vatican-council-says-there-will-be-shepherds-'usque-ad-consummationem-saeculi'/msg743306/#msg743306

So I stay you're begging . . . especially in light of what we've seen in the last 60 or so years (Great Apostasy?). Let the Holy Ghost guide each of us. 

If this is just about the Hewkonians . . . ok. But it's not about them for me. Sorry to intrude on that argument. 


Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2022, 09:05:26 AM »
What are you talking about?  Nothing about a "Eucharistic miracle" requires "god"-like powers.  Per your scenario, Satan can simply reuse tissue from the same person for multiple such "miracles" (and likely would to make them more convincing).  And even human beings do genetic engineering right now.  While Satan is not god, the intellects of these fallen angels far surpass our wildest imagination.  So if human beings are capable of genetic engineering, that's probably not even 1% of what the demons can do in that area.
 And in either case, "it's a true, valid, God-given miracle", or "it's of Satanic origin", it gives us something to consider.  And, as I noted, anti-Catholic apologists could use the latter to debunk Lanciano, the liquefying blood of St Januarius, the miracle of the sun at Fatima, indeed, any miracle that, even by implication, asserts that Catholicism is true.

But in the end, our faith is not dependent upon miracles that took place after the time of the Apostles.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Claimed Eucharistic Miracles
« Reply #84 on: December 19, 2022, 09:40:39 AM »
And in either case, "it's a true, valid, God-given miracle", or "it's of Satanic origin", it gives us something to consider.  And, as I noted, anti-Catholic apologists could use the latter to debunk Lanciano, the liquefying blood of St Januarius, the miracle of the sun at Fatima, indeed, any miracle that, even by implication, asserts that Catholicism is true.

But in the end, our faith is not dependent upon miracles that took place after the time of the Apostles.
Well said, but miracles have always been a part of our faith. A part we are not bound to believe in even if the Church approves it. Some miracles - imo - we'd be foolish to disbelieve, then there are other miracles like the NO miracles, we'd be foolish to believe - because miracles tend to draw people to the miracles, which means the NO miracles would lead people who believe them to be from God, into the NO.