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Author Topic: Mhfm on Francis Fake Eucharist "Ecuмenical" Week - also michael lofton destroyed  (Read 3866 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Good video on why what anti-Pope Francis allowed was wrong. Also Micahel Lofton's own words come back to bite him again.

Offline Ladislaus

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I also do appreciate the Brothers' "softer" tone, where instead of denouncing people as bad-willed, they appealing "in charity" to them to pray for enlightenment.

Interestingly, they also addressed the "Pope Sifting" problem with SVism, holding, as I have been say for years, that it's more about recognizing the fact that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the One True Church founded by Christ, and that it lacks the "motives of credibility" that are the natural prelude to the assent of faith.


Offline AnthonyPadua

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I also do appreciate the Brothers' "softer" tone, where instead of denouncing people as bad-willed, they appealing "in charity" to them to pray for enlightenment.

Interestingly, they also addressed the "Pope Sifting" problem with SVism, holding, as I have been say for years, that it's more about recognizing the fact that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks of the One True Church founded by Christ, and that it lacks the "motives of credibility" that are the natural prelude to the assent of faith.
I think that part went over my head what time stamp was it? I also noticed near the end he seemed sad and frustrated that people still don't see the issues with the 'Popes' and vatican 2. But unlike in the past it's not bitter zeal, so it's definitely a improvement, hopefully the Dimonds continue like this.

Offline Ladislaus

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I think that part went over my head what time stamp was it? I also noticed near the end he seemed sad and frustrated that people still don't see the issues with the 'Popes' and vatican 2. But unlike in the past it's not bitter zeal, so it's definitely a improvement, hopefully the Dimonds continue like this.

about 5:18 - 5:28, but more generally from 4:27 on.

Offline Texana

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Dear CI readers,

Could someone please warn Brother Peter about the trap into which he is walking?

The Anglican Order was indeed pronounced invalid by Pope Leo XIII. However, unlike the Novus Ordo sect of today, the Anglicans heeded the verdict of the Pope and remedied the issue. We know from " Apostolicae Curae " No. 26, that the invalid form has been corrected:

"26. This form had indeed, afterwards added to it the words 'for the office and work of a priest' etc.; but this rather shows that the Anglicans themselves perceived that the first form was defective and inadequate. But even if this addition could give to the form its due signification, it was introduced too late, as a century had already elapsed since the adoption of the Edwardine Ordinal, for, as the hierarchy had become extinct, there remained no power of ordaining."

We also know that Anglican "bishops and priests" sought help in restoring the line of Apostolic Succession:
"In modern times the problem concerns only apostate Catholic priests who have joined the Church of England, or Anglican ministers who have been so doubtful of the validity of their orders that they have been re-ordained by Old Catholic bishops using the Old Catholic Ordinal, which is valid." (p.309, Michael Davies. "Cranmer's Godly Order" 1995)
Michael Davies is incorrect that the Anglican Ordinal is per se incapable of conferring valid orders, since the essential form has indeed been corrected (No. 26 "Apostolicae Curae"). There is another reason why the Anglican rite of Order is in fact invalid, but it is not the one used by Pope Leo XIII.

Brother Peter alleges in the title that the fake Eucharist is present in the Vatican. Yes, it may be, but not because of the reasons given in "Apostolicae Curae". The lineage of each primary celebrant would have to be examined in order to be absolutely sure. Remember, we are fighting a higher intelligence. It may be that in fact the Eucharist is present in the Vatican in this case; in spite of invalid Novus Ordo ministers, including antipope Francis himself, who was "ordained and consecrated" in the new, invalid (per "Apostolicae Curae" and "Sacramentum Ordinis" and "Pontificalis Romani") rite.


Offline Ladislaus

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Texana, you're free to write to them yourselves.

You seem to be missing a key ingredient in your analysis.  Pope Leo XIII taught that even though the essential form was corrected, the context and intention of the rite is still not Catholic, and therefore this did not rectify the situation.

This same argument could easily be applied to the Novus Ordo Orders, but those considerations are passed over by those who claim that NO Ordinations are valid.

You conveniently stop at paragraph 26, but continue reading from 27 on and Pope Leo explains this.

Offline Ladislaus

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Michael Davies is incorrect that the Anglican Ordinal is per se incapable of conferring valid orders, since the essential form has indeed been corrected (No. 26 "Apostolicae Curae").

No, he's not.  Keep reading where Pope Leo XIII continues from paragraphs 27-32 explaining all the other reasons that Anglican orders remained invalid DESPITE their correction of the essential form.

Offline Texana

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Texana, you're free to write to them yourselves.

You seem to be missing a key ingredient in your analysis.  Pope Leo XIII taught that even though the essential form was corrected, the context and intention of the rite is still not Catholic, and therefore this did not rectify the situation.

This same argument could easily be applied to the Novus Ordo Orders, but those considerations are passed over by those who claim that NO Ordinations are valid.

You conveniently stop at paragraph 26, but continue reading from 27 on and Pope Leo explains this.
Dear Ladislaus,

The only reason Pope Leo XIII is even using this line of explanation ab adiunctis is that: "27. In vain has help been recently sought for the plea of the validity of Anglican Orders from the other prayers of the same Ordinal.

( It was already established by Pope Julius III and Paul IV and Pope Leo XIII that the form was invalid, and then some theologians came up 'recently' with a novel idea)

 For to put aside other reasons" ( i.e. Sacramental Theology that never teaches that the validity of the sacramental form can be supplied by the surrounding text) "when show this to be insufficient for the purpose in the Anglican rite, let this argument suffice for all."

 So Pope Leo XIII is not affirming that the adjacent text could validate the form; from No.27-32 he is just saying that even this argument is useless.

In No. 28, Pope Leo shifts the argument towards the intention. He acknowledges the required change in the essential form, but questions what these correct words mean. And finally, in No.31, the Pope says : "For once a new rite has been initiated in which, as we have seen, the Sacrament of Order is adulterated and denied, and from which all idea of consecration and sacrifice has been rejected, the formula, "Receive the Holy Ghost", no longer holds good, because the Spirit is infused into the soul with the grace of the Sacrament, and so the words " for the office and work of a priest or bishop", and the like no longer hold good, but remain as words without the reality which Christ instituted."

 Therefore, the essential form fulfills by itself the requirements of Sacramental Theology; however, what it says has a non Catholic meaning, which Pope Leo affirms in No.33. "...On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic" (which was proven in No.28 to 32) " or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed." So here the intention is already wanting, because manifestly a new non Catholic book is used. Then the next sentence is proving that the intention is not only wanting but adverse.

 Yes, Michael Davies is wrong. The essential form is correct. At the time of Pope Leo XIII the surrounding prayers were not corrected. Were they corrected since then? Nowhere in Sacramental Theology is it written that if the essential form lacks one of the elements needed for its validity, it could be supplanted by adjacent text. What Pope Leo said is that the adjacent text can invalidate the form by showing that the correct words do not mean what they should, and this pertains more to the intention, not the form itself. But at that time it was already a useless exercise, because of No. 26.

Sorry for that long-winded explanation, but it is important.

I will be sure to share if Brother Dimond responds to me.





Offline Angelus

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Dear CI readers,

Could someone please warn Brother Peter about the trap into which he is walking?

The Anglican Order was indeed pronounced invalid by Pope Leo XIII. However, unlike the Novus Ordo sect of today, the Anglicans heeded the verdict of the Pope and remedied the issue. We know from " Apostolicae Curae " No. 26, that the invalid form has been corrected:

"26. This form had indeed, afterwards added to it the words 'for the office and work of a priest' etc.; but this rather shows that the Anglicans themselves perceived that the first form was defective and inadequate. But even if this addition could give to the form its due signification, it was introduced too late, as a century had already elapsed since the adoption of the Edwardine Ordinal, for, as the hierarchy had become extinct, there remained no power of ordaining."

We also know that Anglican "bishops and priests" sought help in restoring the line of Apostolic Succession:
"In modern times the problem concerns only apostate Catholic priests who have joined the Church of England, or Anglican ministers who have been so doubtful of the validity of their orders that they have been re-ordained by Old Catholic bishops using the Old Catholic Ordinal, which is valid." (p.309, Michael Davies. "Cranmer's Godly Order" 1995)
Michael Davies is incorrect that the Anglican Ordinal is per se incapable of conferring valid orders, since the essential form has indeed been corrected (No. 26 "Apostolicae Curae"). There is another reason why the Anglican rite of Order is in fact invalid, but it is not the one used by Pope Leo XIII.

Brother Peter alleges in the title that the fake Eucharist is present in the Vatican. Yes, it may be, but not because of the reasons given in "Apostolicae Curae". The lineage of each primary celebrant would have to be examined in order to be absolutely sure. Remember, we are fighting a higher intelligence. It may be that in fact the Eucharist is present in the Vatican in this case; in spite of invalid Novus Ordo ministers, including antipope Francis himself, who was "ordained and consecrated" in the new, invalid (per "Apostolicae Curae" and "Sacramentum Ordinis" and "Pontificalis Romani") rite.

Texana, the Anglicans DO NOT USE a Rite that is even similar to the Traditional Catholic Rite. Here is the current Rite that they use:

https://www.churchofengland.org/prayer-and-worship/worship-texts-and-resources/common-worship/ministry/common-worship-ordination-0#mm015

And your understanding of Apostolicae Curae is incorrect. Pope Leo XIII did not say that the Anglicans had corrected the problem at that time. In fact, the Pope states the opposite at the end of Section 33, when he confirms that they changed the Rite in an essential way that was/is "destructive to the Sacrament":

Quote
33....if the rite be changed, with the manifest intention of introducing another rite not approved by the Church and of rejecting what the Church does, and what, by the institution of Christ, belongs to the nature of the Sacrament, then it is clear that not only is the necessary intention wanting to the Sacrament, but that the intention is adverse to and destructive of the Sacrament.

The main reason that the changes are invalidating is that the Anglican theology of the "priesthood" is not that of the Catholic priesthood, a sacerdotium, a sacrificing priest. Pope Leo says:

Quote
29....So it comes to pass that, as the Sacrament of Order and the true sacerdotium of Christ were utterly eliminated from the Anglican rite, and hence the sacerdotium is in no wise conferred truly and validly in the episcopal consecration of the same rite, for the like reason, therefore, the episcopate can in no wise be truly and validly conferred by it, and this the more so because among the first duties of the episcopate is that of ordaining ministers for the Holy Eucharist and sacrifice.

Offline Ladislaus

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Right, Pope Leo concluded that despite their attempts to fix the essential form, the entire intention of the Rite was contrary to Catholic teaching regarding the priesthood and episcopacy.  That's one of the arguments against the Novus Ordo Rite, which did a lot of the same, to strip out references to the priest offering the Sacrifice of the Mass, etc. ... many of the same things the Anglicans did.

Offline Angelus

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Right, Pope Leo concluded that despite their attempts to fix the essential form, the entire intention of the Rite was contrary to Catholic teaching regarding the priesthood and episcopacy.  That's one of the arguments against the Novus Ordo Rite, which did a lot of the same, to strip out references to the priest offering the Sacrifice of the Mass, etc. ... many of the same things the Anglicans did.

Agreed. When one understands the qualities of the sacerdotal priesthood and sees those qualities referred to in the traditional Rite and then looks to the New Rites to find the same expressions, he will only find vague expressions.

For example, instead of the clear reference to the purpose of the Priestly Order conferred in the old Rite, we see a new vague, historical description of the function of the Old Testament Priest at the same place in the new Rite:

OLD RITE PREFACE

"...ut ad hostias salutares, et frequentioris officii Sacramenta, ministerium sufficeret Sacerdotum."

"...that the number of priests might suffice for the service of frequent rites and saving sacrifices."

NEW RITE PREFACE

"...ut ad sacrificia tabernaculi, quæ umbra erant futurorum bonorum, meritum sufficeret secundum Legem sacerdotum."

"...that the number of the priests prescribed by the Law might be sufficient for the sacrifices of the tabernacle,
which were a shadow of the good things to come."


The New Rite implies that the idea that the sacerdotal priesthood, as previously understood by the Catholic Church, prefigured in the Old Testament, was "a shadow of good things to come." This gets to the heart of what the Modernists deridingly called the "slaughterhouse priest," a priest who slaughters a victim on the altar. The Modernist hates that idea.

The true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass DOES slaughter a real victim (Sacramentally) on the altar every day. That is incomprehensible to the Modernist sensibilities. So they changed the words of the Preface to explain that concept of "blood sacrifice" as a propitiation for sin was "a shadow of the good things to come."

The new concept of Sacrifice, in the New Rite, is a mere "sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving," which was condemned at Trent (Session XXII):


Quote
CANON III.--If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities; let him be anathema.

So, just like the Anglican Rite, the New Conciliar Rite has changed the theology of the Priest and removed from the Rite the words that express his ongoing sacerdotal purpose.



Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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“[Satan] will set up a counterchurch which will be the ape of the [Catholic] Church. . . . It will have all the notes and characteristics of the Church, but in reverse and emptied of its divine content.”
May God bless you and keep you

Offline DecemRationis

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NEW RITE PREFACE

"...ut ad sacrificia tabernaculi, quæ umbra erant futurorum bonorum, meritum sufficeret secundum Legem sacerdotum."

"...that the number of the priests prescribed by the Law might be sufficient for the sacrifices of the tabernacle,
which were a shadow of the good things to come."


The New Rite implies that the idea that the sacerdotal priesthood, as previously understood by the Catholic Church, prefigured in the Old Testament, was "a shadow of good things to come." This gets to the heart of what the Modernists deridingly called the "slaughterhouse priest," a priest who slaughters a victim on the altar. The Modernist hates that idea.

The true Holy Sacrifice of the Mass DOES slaughter a real victim (Sacramentally) on the altar every day. That is incomprehensible to the Modernist sensibilities. So they changed the words of the Preface to explain that concept of "blood sacrifice" as a propitiation for sin was "a shadow of the good things to come."


Sorry, Angelus, that New Rite language is right out of Hebrews 10:1-4:

Quote
For the law having a shadow of the good things to come, not the very image of the things; by the selfsame sacrifices which they offer continually every year, can never make the comers thereunto perfect:  2 For then they would have ceased to be offered: because the worshippers once cleansed should have no conscience of sin any longer:  3 But in them there is made a commemoration of sins every year.  4 For it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats sin should be taken away.


Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.