Author Topic: Working for Protestants  (Read 6648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MaterDominici

  • Mod
  • *****
  • Posts: 5026
  • Reputation: +3726/-72
  • Gender: Female
Working for Protestants
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 12:34:03 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I wonder if needing the "gig" or not has any bearing on its possible sinfulness.

    If the protestant members basically know that you're only there for the money, would it be better than, say, playing charitably for the sake of practice and leading them to believe that you're supportive of their worship services?

    Just thinking here ... no answers.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline Vladimir

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1707
    • Reputation: +494/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 12:47:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have played for a certain church for no pay, but only to repay a few favors that were done for me by several members of that church. When asked by people that I know that are members of this church why I am playing, I simply reply that _____ informed me that the regular organist is injured and asked if I could fill in temporarily. I emphasis politely that I am just here to play music. I simply do it to fulfill a debt and when asked about to join in further activities, I politely decline (we are not always called to "defend" the Faith in all cases; many times to do so would be imprudent, impolite, and ineffective. It would hardly be appropriate to reply to a polite, well-intentioned invitation to join in a post-service study class with a litany of EENS quotes...something that is apparently lost to some).




    Offline MaterDominici

    • Mod
    • *****
    • Posts: 5026
    • Reputation: +3726/-72
    • Gender: Female
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 01:43:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My worthless opinion is that what you're doing is OK, especially given the temporary nature of it and your honesty regarding your purpose there.
    "I think that Catholicism, that's as sane as people can get."  - Jordan Peterson

    Offline s2srea

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5020
    • Reputation: +3827/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 09:12:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Vladimir-

    I must say you are being a bit vague about your position and what you do. Please explain- is the music you participate in, protestant?  Was it written by Protestants, for Protestants? Please disregard, at this point, whether it is inimical to the faith.


    If the answer is yes, you must stop playing. You are, thusly, participating, and therefore indirectly condoning, the way in which protestants worship, which is wrong.

    Quote
    You mentioned being a part of a band in the past? Perhaps you know then, how detached a musician can be when practicing his art. It isn't a wonder that so many Protestants and atheists are organists at Catholic churches and never convert - they perform their jobs with the utmost perfection, but yet simultaneously with almost mechanical detachment. Many musicians can retreat into something like a state of interior contemplation when playing music.


    Yes, Vladimir, I know the feeling that one gets when involved with music. But this is exactly why we must not worship with modern types of music which protestants use. Prayer, and worship, are not from the carnal. Prayer is a higher part of man that is his 'feelings'. We should worship our Lord when we have the joys of belief, and when we feel dry. As someone had mentioned here before, the Protestant way of worshiping is "dummied down"; it is. If these Protestants, or Catholics even, are unable to worship our lord because the church rejects they way THEY want to worship, not considering how God  wants to be worship, so be it.  I'm sorry I'm not eloquent with words, and hope I'm getting my point across.

    There's a reason we use Gregorian Chant in the Roman Church. Trust me, it would not have been hard to bring in some other instruments for the liturgy. I'm not sure what type of music you're playing at this protestant church, but I can not see how you can justify it.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8213
    • Reputation: +7164/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #19 on: August 16, 2011, 09:24:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I don't think playing the organ at a Protestant church is ok. Basically by doing that you are participating in their heretical forms of worship. Even in a depression such as this, surely you can find a better paying job than that.


    Offline s2srea

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5020
    • Reputation: +3827/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 09:27:13 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is true. And if I may Vladimir, if you owed your friend a favor, you wouldn't have to turn into the Diamond Bro's and throw out EENS quotes at him to reject his request. There are ways of being tactful, yet defending our faith, which we are called to do at all times friend.

    Offline Vladimir

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1707
    • Reputation: +494/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #21 on: August 16, 2011, 03:17:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This is exactly what I do:

    early morning, attend FSSP low mass.
    late morning drive to protestant church - play the organ (a few hymns before the service, 3 hymns during, and an improvised interlude). This is paid job.
    afternoon - temporarily filling in for injured organist at another church. 3 hymns.

    Quote
    Please explain- is the music you participate in, protestant?  Was it written by Protestants, for Protestants? Please disregard, at this point, whether it is inimical to the faith.
    If the answer is yes, you must stop playing. You are, thusly, participating, and therefore indirectly condoning, the way in which protestants worship, which is wrong.


    Depends. Some of the hymns are Catholic (i.e., Holy God we praise Thy Name, All Creatures of our God & King) - some are written by Protestants but are used by Catholic churches, others are just plain American "revivalist" songs that hardly pass for music.

    Does this reasoning imply that we are not to play Mozart, or Bach, or Handel, or ____, etc? Hard to justify when they are playing Beethoven in SSPX seminary.

    Quote

    Yes, Vladimir, I know the feeling that one gets when involved with music. But this is exactly why we must not worship with modern types of music which protestants use. Prayer, and worship, are not from the carnal. Prayer is a higher part of man that is his 'feelings'. We should worship our Lord when we have the joys of belief, and when we feel dry. As someone had mentioned here before, the Protestant way of worshiping is "dummied down"; it is. If these Protestants, or Catholics even, are unable to worship our lord because the church rejects they way THEY want to worship, not considering how God  wants to be worship, so be it.  I'm sorry I'm not eloquent with words, and hope I'm getting my point across.


    I'm not worshiping with Protestants or using their "Protestant music" to worship. By the way what is meant by that anyhow, since many hymn tunes are used in Catholic churches by are secular or Protestant in origin. Among these, is the beautiful Holy Week hymn O Sacred Head now Wounded, which is of 16th century secular origin.


    Quote

    There's a reason we use Gregorian Chant in the Roman Church. Trust me, it would not have been hard to bring in some other instruments for the liturgy. I'm not sure what type of music you're playing at this protestant church, but I can not see how you can justify it.


    Like i've said: its a job!

    re: other instruments. Totally off point, but a guitar is far more preferable than a piano - for Mass at least. Even the organ can become distracting depending on what music is played.

    Quote

    I don't think playing the organ at a Protestant church is ok. Basically by doing that you are participating in their heretical forms of worship. Even in a depression such as this, surely you can find a better paying job than that.


    Please show how is participating in heresy.  I can't catch heresy from just sitting in a Protestant church.

    Plus some organist get $200 *cash* for 1 hr. I don't get paid nearly that much, but anywhere from $25 to $50 in cash (no taxes) for 1 hr and practically no physical exertion...is hard to find elsewhere.
    Quote

    This is true. And if I may Vladimir, if you owed your friend a favor, you wouldn't have to turn into the Diamond Bro's and throw out EENS quotes at him to reject his request. There are ways of being tactful, yet defending our faith, which we are called to do at all times friend.


    True but there are degrees to this. What type of defense you give is depend on what station you are in.



    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8213
    • Reputation: +7164/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #22 on: August 16, 2011, 03:27:30 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Vladimir may have put me on ignore, as I see I now have my 2nd (I don't care), so I don't know if he will be able to see my post or not (although I obviously can't say for sure he was the one who ignored me). But I will respond to him anyway.

    A Catholic playing music for a Protestant church is indeed sinful. You are playing the music they need for their heretical services. It would be like me going to a local Baptist (anti-Catholic) church, playing the organ during their services, and saying "Oh, but I'm not Protestant and therefore am not participating in their worship". Even if you aren't Protestant, you are still participating in their heretical form of worship. Just like JPII at Assisi. Does the fact that he was not a Buddhist mean that he did not participate in false worship when he prayed with Buddhists and put a statue of Buddha on the altar? Of course it doesn't, he participated in false worship by assisting! Vladmir's situation is different of course, but by playing the organ at a Protestant service you are assisting them in their worship and that is a sin.


    Offline Vladimir

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1707
    • Reputation: +494/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #23 on: August 16, 2011, 07:59:38 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It would be pointless to create a thread asking for opinions, only to ignore the users that make their's known.

    Quote
    You are playing the music they need for their heretical services.


    Now, is that really a fair statement to make? What would happen if there was no organist at a SSPX chapel? Choirs and organists are luxuries. Especially organists - if I didn't play, someone else would play the piano or maybe they could find another organist. My presence or absence is not affecting their service in any way except aesthetically.

    Quote
    It would be like me going to a local Baptist (anti-Catholic) church, playing the organ during their services, and saying "Oh, but I'm not Protestant and therefore am not participating in their worship".


    You wouldn't be! How does being inside a Protestant church on Sunday make me anymore Protestant? How would it make you? When asked why I don't participate in their sliced bread eating and grape juice drinking - I say plainly, I'm a Catholic. I'm not a member of this church. I'm just here to play the organ. No one questions it. This is not the 17th century. There aren't any extra-musical requirements to be an organist for most churches. Musicians know that. The people in the congregation know that.

    Quote
    Even if you aren't Protestant, you are still participating in their heretical form of worship.


    HOW?

    One minute I'm the reserved organist that hides behind the organ for the entire service only to slip out unnoticed immediately after receiving pay and the next you are comparing me to the pope who did _______ in front of the entire world? Assisting would be like being a Protestant altar boy or doing their readings, or "testifying", etc. Sitting passively behind an organ console is not.

    You seem to have a serious paranoia of "scandal". I've been to a Buddhist funeral before. Since I didn't have a big sign on my shirt saying "I'm a Catholic passively attending this blasphemous ritual" is that scandal for someone to see me and assume that I'm a Buddhist?

    I'm not trying to pick fights. But as previously stated, the information given by some members regarding this topic may be incorrect in some circumstances and may be the cause of scruples for readers.  




    Offline Telesphorus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 12714
    • Reputation: +7/-12
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #24 on: August 16, 2011, 08:02:05 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Is a drummer boy participating in the battle or not?

    I'm very sympathetic with your position vladimir, it's just it does seem like accompanying a protestant service is collaborating with their worship.

    Offline s2srea

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5020
    • Reputation: +3827/-28
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 10:37:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I'm getting Hobble's input.


    Offline LordPhan

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1171
    • Reputation: +826/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 10:50:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I actually see 3 issues. 1. You're making money and performing a servile service on the Lord's Day. 2. You are inside a 'church' that displeases God on the Lord's Day. 3. You are assisting them in their crime of Cain on the Lord's Day.

    But you seem to have made up your mind.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3746
    • Reputation: +4804/-5
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #27 on: August 17, 2011, 12:46:17 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: s2srea
    I'm getting Hobble's input.


    Oh there you go again, bringing in that Hobble-whatever guy!  :wink:

    I shall submit a response after I consult my library regarding the matters discussed in this thread. A serious inquiry was made, and I find it improper for me to post an informal reply when I have the resources to cite authors and texts in order to formulate a more serious response.

    Perhaps I shall take some theological tomes with me at work to read during my lunch break and take notes.

    Moral theology and casuistry are such fun!  :reading:

    Well at least more fun than grouting...  
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8213
    • Reputation: +7164/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #28 on: August 17, 2011, 09:18:47 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Now, is that really a fair statement to make? What would happen if there was no organist at a SSPX chapel? Choirs and organists are luxuries. Especially organists - if I didn't play, someone else would play the piano or maybe they could find another organist. My presence or absence is not affecting their service in any way except aesthetically.


    There is some error in your reasoning there. "If I didn't play, someone else would". Well, let them. Let that church hire a Protestant to play the organ. But to do it and say someone else would if it wasn't you does not support your case.

    Quote
    You wouldn't be! How does being inside a Protestant church on Sunday make me anymore Protestant? How would it make you? When asked why I don't participate in their sliced bread eating and grape juice drinking - I say plainly, I'm a Catholic. I'm not a member of this church. I'm just here to play the organ. No one questions it. This is not the 17th century. There aren't any extra-musical requirements to be an organist for most churches. Musicians know that. The people in the congregation know that.


    I never said it makes you Protestant, but you're supplying them the music they need to sing their heretical songs at their heretical services. Tele and LP have already agreed with me that you're participating in heretical worship even without literally being a Protestant. Just because you aren't one does not mean you cannot in-directly participate in it by playing the organ.

    Quote
    One minute I'm the reserved organist that hides behind the organ for the entire service only to slip out unnoticed immediately after receiving pay and the next you are comparing me to the pope who did _______ in front of the entire world? Assisting would be like being a Protestant altar boy or doing their readings, or "testifying", etc. Sitting passively behind an organ console is not.

    You seem to have a serious paranoia of "scandal". I've been to a Buddhist funeral before. Since I didn't have a big sign on my shirt saying "I'm a Catholic passively attending this blasphemous ritual" is that scandal for someone to see me and assume that I'm a Buddhist?

    I'm not trying to pick fights. But as previously stated, the information given by some members regarding this topic may be incorrect in some circumstances and may be the cause of scruples for readers.


    I didn't compare you to JPII, I used him as an example of participating in false worship even without literally believing in what they believe. No, what I say is not the cause of scruples, you need to grasp a clear understanding of what that is. If you have musical talents with the organ, then great. But why not use it to assist Catholics rather than heretics who reject the Church of Christ?

    Offline Daegus

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 802
    • Reputation: +586/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Working for Protestants
    « Reply #29 on: August 17, 2011, 09:45:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Vladimir
    This is exactly what I do:

    early morning, attend FSSP low mass.
    late morning drive to protestant church - play the organ (a few hymns before the service, 3 hymns during, and an improvised interlude). This is paid job.
    afternoon - temporarily filling in for injured organist at another church. 3 hymns.


    There are other jobs you can do for pay, and by doing this job you're obviously attending a Protestant service. You did say yourself that you play hymns during their service. This wouldn't be possible if you weren't attending their service, even if you don't concede to any of their heresies. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you that doing so is wrong.

    Quote
    Depends. Some of the hymns are Catholic (i.e., Holy God we praise Thy Name, All Creatures of our God & King) - some are written by Protestants but are used by Catholic churches, others are just plain American "revivalist" songs that hardly pass for music.


    Even if there are Catholic hymns being sung, you're still attending a Protestant service and contributing to the propagation and maintenance of a false religion by doing so.

    Quote
    Does this reasoning imply that we are not to play Mozart, or Bach, or Handel, or ____, etc? Hard to justify when they are playing Beethoven in SSPX seminary.


    The difference between attending a Protestant service that has everything to do with Protestantism and listening to a musician play a piece that may or may not even have anything to do with religion whatsoever is like the difference between night and day.

    Quote
    I'm not worshiping with Protestants or using their "Protestant music" to worship.


    But you are attending a Protestant service, which, as I've intimated before, is completely unacceptable. You have no way to get around this.

    Quote
    By the way what is meant by that anyhow, since many hymn tunes are used in Catholic churches by are secular or Protestant in origin. Among these, is the beautiful Holy Week hymn O Sacred Head now Wounded, which is of 16th century secular origin.


    As I've said before, there is no excuse.

    Quote
    Like i've said: its a job!


    There's more than 1 job out there that doesn't involve attending the worship services of heretics.

    Quote
    Please show how is participating in heresy.  I can't catch heresy from just sitting in a Protestant church.


    Why do you even need an example? Is the mere fact that you're contributing to the worship service of heretics not enough? You may not be "catching heresy" by being there but you certainly are giving your tacit approval of it by choosing to sit there and contributing to their service by playing music for them.

    Quote
    Plus some organist get $200 *cash* for 1 hr. I don't get paid nearly that much, but anywhere from $25 to $50 in cash (no taxes) for 1 hr and practically no physical exertion...is hard to find elsewhere.


    Even if you were paid $1 million per second of your time, it is inexcusable for you to attend the worship services of heretics or to contribute to it in any way.

    Quote
    True but there are degrees to this. What type of defense you give is depend on what station you are in.


    You are not in a situation to give any valid defense of your actions whatsoever, and you have not shown yourself to be in such a situation.
    For those who I have unjustly offended, please forgive me. Please disregard my posts where I lacked charity and you will see that I am actually a very nice person. Disregard my opinions on "NFP", "Baptism of Desire/Blood" and the changes made to the sacra


     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16