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Author Topic: Working for Protestants  (Read 11634 times)

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Working for Protestants
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2011, 09:44:11 PM »
Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.

Agree about secular concerts, etc.

The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".

Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.

Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that  that is sinful.

But for a simple musician....not really I think.

and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.

What does Raoul76 think?!?!

other people?

Working for Protestants
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 08:35:21 AM »
Quote from: Sigismund
That is the issue, I think.  I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one.  (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in.  They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.)  However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship.  I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.

What about the reverse?  Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service?  One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian.  He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.


Matthew,

Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?


Working for Protestants
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 09:45:15 AM »
Quote from: Vladimir
Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.

Agree about secular concerts, etc.

The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".

Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.

Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that  that is sinful.

But for a simple musician....not really I think.

and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.

What does Raoul76 think?!?!

other people?


I know I'm not Raoul, Vlad, but I have just finished reading on this subject, not too long ago, in a book given to me by Caminus. I don't think he'd mind me quoting from it. It is a III part work by Fr. Francis J. Connell, CSSR published by The Catholic University of America, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1946.

First, we must consider types of co-operation:

Physical Co-operation: "Collaboration consisting of some physical act": i.e.providing articles to be used in non-Catholic religious services, allowing such a service to be held in some place under one's jurisdiction, etc. [I believe this is where your, playing with a protestant service falls] "The ruel is that formal co-operation is never allowed, material co-operation is per se forbidden, but for a sufficiently grave reason can per accidens become ilicit.

Moral Co-operation: "Co-operation is not limited to physical activity in or toward another's action." Co-operation may consist in moral concurrence- for example, advice, conselling, urgiing, which will induce or help another to act. If such advice or consulling or inducement  is directed to the performance of an action that is intrinsically wrong, it ordinarily constitutes formal co-operation  in the evil act, and consequently, is intrinsically wrong."


Lastly, I will quote from Connell, his examples of what should be done in the cases of Catholics joining the YMCA and what a catholic should do when they are employed doing secretarial work for non-Catholic ministers.

YMCA: "As to the moral problem of the participation of Catholics in the activites of the YMCA, it is very evident that they may not take part in any religious functions, for these are surely Protestant in Character. Neither could they attend Bible classes, religoius lectures, etc. At most it would be permissible for a Catholic to join the YMCA in order to take advantage of the athletic facilities, and perhaps some of the social or cultural functions.

Secretarial Work: A Catholic could serve as secretary to a non-Catholic clergyman... but not if her usual work was copying sermons, making arrangements for church services, etc. In this latter case, co-operation would be material; but it would be so proximate, that it is difficult to find a reason to justify it."


Lastly, from Baltimore Catechism #3:

". 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned."

Lastly, have you consulted a traditional priest on this? If not, why not?






Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Working for Protestants
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2011, 01:18:57 PM »
Quote from: Sigismund
Quote from: Sigismund
That is the issue, I think.  I don't see any problem with a Catholic musician giving a concert in a Protestant church, or participating in a secular event that happens to take place in one.  (I am thinking of an Independence Day event that took place every year in the town I grew up in.  They had it in a big ####ian Church just because of the size of the building.)  However, playing music for a Protestant service is not just attending but taking a leadership role in Protestant worship.  I probably take a more permissive view of such things than many here, but I can't see how it would be okay to actually lead Protest worship, ot to lead the music for such a service.

What about the reverse?  Could a Protestant musician play in a Catholic service?  One of the best church musicians I ever know was an Episcopalian.  He played at a Catholic Church, and the music at the Mass he played for was both much better aesthetically and much more orthodox than the folk nonsense at the other Masses.


Matthew,

Why in the world is the name of a particular Protestant church beginning wit P blocked out, when others are not?


Because Traditio has their own pet term for "priest" that they apply to any priest not ordained by a sedevacantist Bishop.

I don't like Traditio, and so I don't allow Traditio-speak on here.


Working for Protestants
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2011, 03:04:18 PM »
Quote from: s2srea
Quote from: Vladimir
Anglicans do tend to be good musicians.

Agree about secular concerts, etc.

The key about what you said was "leadership". A musician (even if he is the sole one) is not really a "leader" in Protestant liturgy (neither is the organist in a Catholic church - although I use a profaned understanding of the term as one who plays the organ, not the official definition as one that is in head of all the choirs, etc). Really he is just like a "hired hand".

Playing the organ - OK it makes singing easier - but in its absence...the protestant service is affected only aestetically. Maybe an example would be the man that paints the walls of prot church. If he didn't paint it...protestant will be protestant. Just without painted walls. Same -if I don't play the organ...they will sing...without the organ.

Maybe what Sigusmund and MaterDominici say can apply to a theoretical Catholic director of music at a Prot church. In that case you would be actively organizing a protestant liturgy, but even then maybe you cannot even say that  that is sinful.

But for a simple musician....not really I think.

and the argument that it would give scandal is pretty ridiculous.

What does Raoul76 think?!?!

other people?


I know I'm not Raoul, Vlad, but I have just finished reading on this subject, not too long ago, in a book given to me by Caminus. I don't think he'd mind me quoting from it. It is a III part work by Fr. Francis J. Connell, CSSR published by The Catholic University of America, in The American Ecclesiastical Review, 1946.

First, we must consider types of co-operation:

Physical Co-operation: "Collaboration consisting of some physical act": i.e.providing articles to be used in non-Catholic religious services, allowing such a service to be held in some place under one's jurisdiction, etc. [I believe this is where your, playing with a protestant service falls] "The ruel is that formal co-operation is never allowed, material co-operation is per se forbidden, but for a sufficiently grave reason can per accidens become ilicit.

Moral Co-operation: "Co-operation is not limited to physical activity in or toward another's action." Co-operation may consist in moral concurrence- for example, advice, conselling, urgiing, which will induce or help another to act. If such advice or consulling or inducement  is directed to the performance of an action that is intrinsically wrong, it ordinarily constitutes formal co-operation  in the evil act, and consequently, is intrinsically wrong."


Lastly, I will quote from Connell, his examples of what should be done in the cases of Catholics joining the YMCA and what a catholic should do when they are employed doing secretarial work for non-Catholic ministers.

YMCA: "As to the moral problem of the participation of Catholics in the activites of the YMCA, it is very evident that they may not take part in any religious functions, for these are surely Protestant in Character. Neither could they attend Bible classes, religoius lectures, etc. At most it would be permissible for a Catholic to join the YMCA in order to take advantage of the athletic facilities, and perhaps some of the social or cultural functions.

Secretarial Work: A Catholic could serve as secretary to a non-Catholic clergyman... but not if her usual work was copying sermons, making arrangements for church services, etc. In this latter case, co-operation would be material; but it would be so proximate, that it is difficult to find a reason to justify it."


Lastly, from Baltimore Catechism #3:

". 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned."

Lastly, have you consulted a traditional priest on this? If not, why not?







re: trad. priest. I have. Twice. And his answer for my question is no, not sinful. Which is why I am bringing this up because it seems like the members of this site are being misleading.

Thank you for the definitions. But can you explain why you think this fits my case.

What I say exactly is: is it sinful to be employed as organist at Protestant church either for or without payment. And answer was no.