Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 24012 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2018, 12:56:06 AM »
Genuinuely curious here - how do those who reject BOD understand the following from the Council of Trent

Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
   "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

99% of the people who promote BOD do not even believe that a desire to be baptized is necessary for salvation, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity. They believe that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews etc., can be saved without "a desire to be baptized, nor a desire to be a Catholic, or belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity".

If you are sincere as you say, ponder on that, for that is the REAL SUBJECT to be debated with the promoters of BOD, and not some catechumen who got run over by a bus on his way to be baptized.

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2018, 01:06:35 AM »
A purported percentage of people that error has little to do with truth.  

As was provided in the original post, Saint Alphonsus Liguori is noted as saying,
Quote
"But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

Referring to The Council of Trent, Sixth Session, On Justification, Chapter IV,
Quote
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace. By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So, I believe it is absolutely safe to say that, "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2018, 10:00:24 AM »

Penance is a different case however. Whereas natural and true Baptism is specifically stated to be required by Trent, it's also taught in Trent and ever since that perfect contrition or unavailability of the Sacrament can allow Penance in voto. But like you said, extending that to Baptism is like extending it to Eucharist.

Or, rather, it's like extending in voto to Holy Orders.  None of the "character" Sacraments can be received in voto.  BoDers admit that the character/seal isn't received in BoD but claim that the character is not essential to the effects of the Sacrament.  But in Holy Orders, you can't have Holy Orders without the character.  That's because it's essential to Holy Orders to have the priestly character.  Why then wouldn't that be the case with Baptism?  It's that character which makes us members of the Church and adopted children of God.  Just as Holy Orders makes a man take on the persona Christi, so does Baptism, only to a lesser extent, so that God the Father recognizes as His sons, being in the image of His Son.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2018, 10:03:53 AM »
So, I believe it is absolutely safe to say that, "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

You guys always take this line out of context.  This means NOTHING MORE than that Catechumens should receive Catholic burial.  It does not mean that CATEGORICALLY they are to be treated as baptized and considered saved.

Here's the entire context of the passage.
1) Only the baptized can receive Catholic burial (principle).
2) Catechumens are to be treated as baptized (for the purposes of #1 above).

It's a legalistic circuмlocution which says essentially "Only the baptized and catechumens can receive Catholic burial."

Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2018, 11:02:32 AM »
Or, rather, it's like extending in voto to Holy Orders.  None of the "character" Sacraments can be received in voto.  BoDers admit that the character/seal isn't received in BoD but claim that the character is not essential to the effects of the Sacrament.  But in Holy Orders, you can't have Holy Orders without the character.  That's because it's essential to Holy Orders to have the priestly character.  Why then wouldn't that be the case with Baptism?  It's that character which makes us members of the Church and adopted children of God.  Just as Holy Orders makes a man take on the persona Christi, so does Baptism, only to a lesser extent, so that God the Father recognizes as His sons, being in the image of His Son.
Interestingly, there are a growing number of Catholics (including Pfeifferites) who believe that the character IS received in bod.  That original sin IS remitted, as well as the reception of justification.  They say everything Baptism does, bod does equally since bod is now said to be a fully functional aspect of Baptism.  And why not?  It becomes impossible to prove anything against bod being an inward sign, with all the benefits of the outward sign, if one has already accepted bod exists. After all, God can do anything and isn't tied to the sacraments, they say.  Naturally, once you cross the line, anything goes.  Every single warning and condemnation is redefined to explain how this works, so using Church teachings to debunk bod falls on deaf ears since bod has now become Baptism!  Redefining terms is at the heart of the bod apologetic which proves to me at least, bod is modernism at its finest.  This is relatively new, too.  Once upon a time, bod'ers would never insist bod was a dogma, nor that the recipients get the character, or remission of sin.  They sure do now.