Author Topic: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent  (Read 252 times)

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Offline Mega-fin

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  • Genuinuely curious here - how do those who reject BOD understand the following from the Council of Trent and St Alphonsus in regards to the same?

    ouncil of Trent 1545-1563
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
       "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    Decree on Justification - (Session 6, Chapter 4):
       "In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the 'adoption of the Sons' (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto) as it is written: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

    St. Alphonsus Liguori 1691-1787
    Moral Theology - (Bk. 6):
       "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #1 on: November 25, 2017, 04:50:27 AM »
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  • Genuinuely curious here - how do those who reject BOD understand the following from the Council of Trent and St Alphonsus in regards to the same?

    Council of Trent 1545-1563
    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
       "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    Have you read the canon? I very often wonder if those who promote a BOD have ever actually sat down for 2 minutes and actually read what they copy and paste.

    BOD is not a sacrament. The canon literally starts by saying the sacraments are necessary for salvation - do you believe the sacraments are necessary for salvation?

    "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous,......let him be anathema.



    The second part of the canon continues along that same theme, it does not first decree the sacraments are necessary, then they are not necessary. So keeping in mind the sacraments are necessary.......

    and [if anyone shall say] that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    If you read the canon as written without zooming into one word "desire" and ignoring the rest of the entire canon - and council for that matter, you will note that:

    Per the canon, 1) The sacraments are necessary for salvation -  and 2) those people are anathema who say that without the sacraments, or without the desire of the sacraments, (through faith alone) men can be JUSTIFIED.

    So first, the canon does not guarantee salvation to anyone, baptized or not, the canon literally only states that the sacraments themselves are necessary for salvation and whoever says they are not is anathema.

    Second, not even the requirement for salvation, justification, is guaranteed. In fact, a BOD, i.e. justification through faith alone, (without the sacraments or the desire of them) is condemned with anathema.

    No worries, I likely will not participate further in this thread unless you want to debate the actual meaning of this canon, using this canon, the words of this canon or some other version of this canon.

    My goal here is to get the BODers to see what this canon is actually saying, so they can understand and accept what it actually means, so they will stop using this canon to promote a BOD because it actually condemns a BOD.

    Otherwise, feel free to ignore the whole thing and keep on keeping on, I will obey the canon and simply, let you be anathema.  
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine


    Offline Mega-fin

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #2 on: November 25, 2017, 06:59:15 AM »
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  • Lol. No desire to debate, as I stated, I was genuinely interested in a perspective I was unable to find. Thank you. 

    Offline GJC

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #3 on: November 25, 2017, 07:56:24 AM »
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  • Genuinuely curious here - how do those who reject BOD understand the following from the Council of Trent and St Alphonsus in regards to the same?

    Canons on the sacraments in general (Canon 4)

    A. In regards to adults "or" means both. it would be foolish to believe that one could be reborn without a desire. If it could be argued that the desire without the water is sufficient for rebirth, then the water without a desire must be sufficient also.

    B. Same applies for Decree on justification...

    C. St Alphonsus: Moral Theology- His statement here contradicts Trent.  "by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the[baptismal] character, or as to the removal of all punishment due to sin"

    Trent clearly teaches that rebirth where man is made ANEW eliminates all punishment due to sin (no purgatory). Now, lets face it St Alphonsus is a doctor of the Church, he knows that BoD is not a sacrament, so it makes sense that he would not claim in his book that his speculation of BoD would have the same effects as the sacrament. But at the same time it contradicts Trent and there is no getting around that.

    Example: BoD today tries to include those who are outside of the Church (mostly ignorance), and if they believe in a God that rewards, are good people they could possibly be saved via BoD in spite of the fact they objective reject the Church or Christ.

    Do you see the problem with this?



    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Genuinely curious - rejection of Baptism and the Council of Trent
    « Reply #4 on: November 25, 2017, 09:10:25 AM »
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  • Lol. No desire to debate, as I stated, I was genuinely interested in a perspective I was unable to find. Thank you.
    Ah, ok - my apologies, normally any thread starting out with those quotes turns into a hundred pages of the same tired old arguments.

    The other thing I want to say, is that if the canon said what the BODers claim it says, then the only way to accomplish using that canon, is if the canon was worded like this, or something like this:

    If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous,
     and [if anyone shall say] we declare, define and pronounce that although all [of the sacraments] are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification." let him be anathema.

    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine


     

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