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Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?  (Read 8162 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2023, 12:56:39 PM »
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  • I have provided multiple links in previous posts on this thread so that people can objectively verify what I have said about the meaning of the word "alminhas" as a linguistic colloquialism in Portugal referring exclusively to the "poor souls in Purgatory." I will provide those links again all in one place, with some additional information.

    What I provide is simply the facts. You can make your own decisions about how you say your prayers. But there is no doubt that when the Virgin Mary, speaking to rural children in Portugal in 1917, used the word "alminhas," she was referring specifically and unequivocally to "the poor souls in Purgatory."


    1. The definition and origin of the Portuguese word "alminha"

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/alminha#Portuguese

    You will note that the word combines the word "alma" [meaning "soul"] with a diminutive ending [meaning "small" or "poor"].


    2. The use of the word "alminhas" to refer unequivocally to "the poor souls in Purgatory" in the country of Portugal.

    Portuguese Original: https://www.snpcultura.org/vol_alminhas.html
    English Translation: https://www-snpcultura-org.translate.goog/vol_alminhas.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp


    3. The existence of the Nichos de Alminhas do Purgatório in the country of Portugal alone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alminhas

    Note that the word "nichos" translates as "niche." The phrase "Nichos de Alminhas do Purgatorio" is normally shortened to simply "alminhas" in Portugal because that is the well-known location where the people living in Portugal would traditionally perform devotions for the "poor souls."


    4. The evidence that the alminhas concept, after 1917, tied together the "poor souls in Purgatory" and Fatima.

    See the attached PDF (especially the last sentence quoted below). Here is an excerpt from that 9 page PDF:

    Quote
    Alminhas are altarpieces in the shape of tiny chapels outside buildings dedicated to the souls of the Purgatory. Formally, they represent the souls being rescued from the flames of Purgatory by angels, or aided by the Virgin or by St. Michael, the Archangel. Topographically, they are essentially located along the roads, in spots where someone died, intersections of roads and waypoints like access to bridges. Alminhas are apotropaic and prophylactic marks that sacralize places, marking them as spots that legends and beliefs consecrated as passages between two worlds. Its edification was done by communities or by anonymous persons based on orders related with promises. Nevertheless, Alminhas usually have inscriptions asking prayers for the souls. Frases like “Vos que ides passando, lembrai-vos de nós que estamos penado10” or “Neste espelho podeis ver o que um dia vireis a ser11” are placed trying to call some empathetic reactions from the believers. While until the twentieth century the style of the architectural composition was somehow unevenly, according to material constraints, devotions and particular beliefs or places, from the late nineteenth century, Alminhas began to be produced in modular workshops which initially withdrew from them the particularities formerly known and recognized. However, these modular compositions have found success amongst the populations. Today it is rare to find Alminhas older than those from the twentieth century. Niches commonly identified as being from the eighteenth century which probably housed Alminhas from the same era, now show ceramic tiles made in the workshops of the twentieth century, or sometimes images corresponding to modern devotions to Our Lady of Fatima or the Sacred Heart of Jesus.


    Populations used to embody and respond to the new aesthetic models, associating them to new ways of representing and also to more recent devotions. Even though the Virgin of the Rosary remains the main Marian devotion figured in the Alminhas, after the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal in the early twentieth century, this devotion has expanded and became a common iconographic representation of her image with the three shepherd children, surmounting the souls in Purgatory.

    10 “You, who are passing through, please recall of us who are suffering
    11 “In this mirror you may see whom you will become one day


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #76 on: September 08, 2023, 01:00:53 PM »
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  • Isn't it interesting that in what will probably be the last thing to unite Catholics in The End Times, the recitation of the Rosary, there is now division? 


    Interesting, but not surprising.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #77 on: September 08, 2023, 03:27:46 PM »
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  • That was an excellent point Ladislaus made -- that Fatima as a whole was about saving sinners from damnation -- not relief for the Church Suffering (who are already saved) in Purgatory.
    So this whole controversy doesn't even make sense from a big-picture perspective.

    Leave it to Trads though to argue about NOTHING when there are MUCH, MUCH bigger fish to fry.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #78 on: September 08, 2023, 03:29:28 PM »
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  • Leave it to Trads though to argue about NOTHING when there are MUCH, MUCH bigger fish to fry.

    Indeed, our version of arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a needle.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #79 on: September 08, 2023, 03:31:23 PM »
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  • This too is a good point.  Those in Purgatory needn't be led to Heaven.  They're being led to Heaven ... albeit on a pretty rugged path.  This is clearly an expression to save souls.  Our Lady at Fatima showed the children the vision of Hell, not Purgatory, and the children were thus inspired to constantly due penance for "sinners" and not for souls in Purgatory.

    This.
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    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #80 on: September 08, 2023, 05:27:09 PM »
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  • That was an excellent point Ladislaus made -- that Fatima as a whole was about saving sinners from damnation -- not relief for the Church Suffering (who are already saved) in Purgatory.
    So this whole controversy doesn't even make sense from a big-picture perspective.

    Leave it to Trads though to argue about NOTHING when there are MUCH, MUCH bigger fish to fry.

    The Church has a liturgical day (a First Class Feast!) dedicated specifically and exclusively to "the souls in Purgatory." 

    It's called "All Souls Day." Not "Some Souls Day," as if some "Souls" are located in the land of the living and some other "Souls" are located in Purgatory. No, the Church uses the phrase "All Souls," and every single one of those "Souls" that the Church refers to in the liturgy that day is located in Purgatory. So, even in English, the phrase "All Souls" means "the souls in Purgatory."

    Now, let's look at what the English-version of the Fatima Prayer says:
     
    "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy."

    So, it is NOT necessary to change the words you use when you say the Fatima Prayer. It is only necessary to change your mental intention, to focus your intention in that part of your prayer on "the poor souls in Purgatory."

    There is no need to argue about this.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #81 on: September 09, 2023, 10:49:16 AM »
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  • Quote
    So, it is NOT necessary to change the words you use when you say the Fatima Prayer.
    The OPs whole point was to change  the words.  Most on this thread agree with you - it’s unnecessary.  

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #82 on: September 09, 2023, 11:14:45 AM »
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  • The OPs whole point was to change  the words.  Most on this thread agree with you - it’s unnecessary. 

    Yes, it IS NOT necessary to "change the words." But it IS necessary, for those who care about the truth, to change their interpretation of the words "all souls." The phrase "all souls" does not mean "all the living and dead." It means "the souls in Purgatory."

    In the Fatima Prayer, those living (the Church Militant) are referred to as "us," as in "...forgive us, save us from the fires of Hell...." But the faithful departed in Purgatory (the Church Suffering) are referred to as "all souls," as in "lead all souls to Heaven...."

    Notice the change from "us" to "all souls." There is a reason for the change in wording of the Fatima Prayer at that point. Keep that in mind as you are saying the prayer. That is the important point. The "poor souls in Purgatory" desperately need our prayers because they are "in most need" because very few people pray for them.


    Offline andy

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #83 on: September 09, 2023, 11:16:15 AM »
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  • So it there something wrong theologically with "O My Jesus prayer"?

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #84 on: September 09, 2023, 11:27:28 AM »
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  • So it there something wrong theologically with "O My Jesus prayer"?

    No, the problem is with those who incorrectly interpret the words "all souls" to refer to both the living and the dead. The phrase "all souls" is properly interpreted to mean "the faithful departed" in Purgatory.

    Why? Because Our Lady used the Portuguese word "alminhas" in her recitation of the original prayer to the Fatima children. That word (alminhas), as it was understood in 1917 Portugal, referred unequivocally to "the poor souls in Purgatory" not to living people.

    So whenever you say the Fatima Prayer, please remember that Our Lady wants you to think of the "poor souls in Purgatory" when you say "lead all souls to heaven...." 

    Offline andy

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #85 on: September 09, 2023, 11:38:25 AM »
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  • So whenever you say the Fatima Prayer, please remember that Our Lady wants you to think of the "poor souls in Purgatory" when you say "lead all souls to heaven...."
    So this is the bad translation issue then. Was that prayer approved by Church?


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #86 on: September 09, 2023, 11:45:55 AM »
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  • So this is the bad translation issue then. Was that prayer approved by Church?

    It is not precisely "a bad translation." The phrase "all souls" is used in English to refer to "All Souls Day," which is a day dedicated exclusively to the faithful departed in Purgatory. 

    The problem is catechetical. Some people mistakenly think that "all souls" refers to all the living and the dead. Our Lady did not intend that meaning when she recited the prayer to the children. 

    The solution is that people saying the prayer just need to be conscious of Our Lady's intended meaning when they say the words "all souls" in the English rendering of the prayer. 

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #87 on: September 09, 2023, 12:00:06 PM »
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  • There is no need to argue about this.
    And yet that is exactly what you continue to do.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #88 on: February 08, 2024, 09:02:03 AM »
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  • Bump!
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    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #89 on: February 08, 2024, 09:39:28 AM »
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  • So can someone give me the link to the "correct" O My Jesus prayer?