I'm kind of disturbed and hugely suspicious whenever Catholics many decades before Vatican II and the entire history of the Trad movement (1969 - 2023 the present day) were allegedly wrong about something.I agree, Matthew.
I mean, at this point, the "regular" O My Jesus prayer is TRADITIONAL, even if it doesn't mention Purgatory, even if Masons conspired to suppress that line. Think of how divisive it would be to try to correct it now. We wouldn't be able to say Rosaries together! A good portion of people would, for good reason, stick with the "traditional" version of the prayer, while others -- the doctrinal purists -- would switch to the new one, come what may. And what would come, in my opinion, would be needless division and fighting. And the devil would be laughing his burning red ass off the whole time.
Much more evil would come of it, than the microscopic good done by professing belief in purgatory in this particular prayer. Guess what? Trads already believe in Purgatory. We're not Novus Ordo. There's no falling-away from belief in Purgatory in the Trad world. Purgatory doesn't have to be literally EVERYWHERE in EVERY SINGLE PRAYER for us to keep believing in it. As long as it has a decent presence overall, the Faithful will continue to believe in it. Our priests preach it. Our traditional practices reinforce it. Our Traditional artwork teaches it. Our Mass mentions it. We still celebrate November as the Month of the Holy Souls and Trads do plenty of things to celebrate that month properly. Etc.
Do I need to remind some that we Trads still celebrate Requiem Masses with black vestments? The whole TRADITIONAL MASS for the faithful departed assumes they're in Purgatory -- not heaven. We don't eulogize or canonize the deceased, as they do in the Novus Ordo with their white vestments. So again, it's just not an issue in the Trad world.
This new version of the prayer is a solution in search of a problem.
The fact is, God has allowed us all to learn the "imperfect" version -- so it must be His will. I would say it's TOO LATE to go back and fix it now. We have 105 years of Tradition, of habit, of precedent, that would have to be undone and wiped out. The Church doesn't work that way. Things with "venerable usage" get preserved.
I do not join in the Rosary before Mass on Sundays because it remains a cacophony: too many people/families/groups reciting at different speeds - without any attempt to try to keep things together, colloquially speaking. It becomes a great distraction, so I tune out...Ha ha... sounds like it is the same the world over... how true, and how absolutely appalling. It's enough to make you blush with shame if ever you manage to drag along a Protestant friend, for example. What should be unto their edification becomes a stumbling block. Not enough pastors correct this terrible abuse in my opinion.
I agree. I am very skeptical about the idea that everyone has been saying the prayer incorrectly for over a century. That strikes me as absurd and I would have to see serious proof of it. The arguments made against the one we say are pretty specious anyway. There's nothing wrong with saying "lead all souls to heaven". Doesn't God want all men to be saved? And doesn't the offering of the chalice in the Mass offer it for "our salvation and that of the whole world"?I agree. Like I said in my post above, the only "problem" with this translation is that the Modernists/Novus Ordites will think it means going to Heaven without converting to the Catholic Faith first.
I agree. Like I said in my post above, the only "problem" with this translation is that the Modernists/Novus Ordites will think it means going to Heaven without converting to the Catholic Faith first..
.Yes, hence the reason why I put the word problem in quotes.
That's not a problem. If we had to worry about how heretics might twist some text to suit their agenda, we'd have to get rid of the Bible itself. :)
I'm kind of disturbed and hugely suspicious whenever Catholics many decades before Vatican II and the entire history of the Trad movement (1969 - 2023 the present day) were allegedly wrong about something.Dear Matthew,
I mean, at this point, the "regular" O My Jesus prayer is TRADITIONAL, even if it doesn't mention Purgatory, even if Masons conspired to suppress that line. Think of how divisive it would be to try to correct it now. We wouldn't be able to say Rosaries together! A good portion of people would, for good reason, stick with the "traditional" version of the prayer, while others -- the doctrinal purists -- would switch to the new one, come what may. And what would come, in my opinion, would be needless division and fighting. And the devil would be laughing his burning red ass off the whole time.
Much more evil would come of it, than the microscopic good done by professing belief in purgatory in this particular prayer. Guess what? Trads already believe in Purgatory. We're not Novus Ordo. There's no falling-away from belief in Purgatory in the Trad world. Purgatory doesn't have to be literally EVERYWHERE in EVERY SINGLE PRAYER for us to keep believing in it. As long as it has a decent presence overall, the Faithful will continue to believe in it. Our priests preach it. Our traditional practices reinforce it. Our Traditional artwork teaches it. Our Mass mentions it. We still celebrate November as the Month of the Holy Souls and Trads do plenty of things to celebrate that month properly. Etc.
Do I need to remind some that we Trads still celebrate Requiem Masses with black vestments? The whole TRADITIONAL MASS for the faithful departed assumes they're in Purgatory -- not heaven. We don't eulogize or canonize the deceased, as they do in the Novus Ordo with their white vestments. So again, it's just not an issue in the Trad world.
This new version of the prayer is a solution in search of a problem.
The fact is, God has allowed us all to learn the "imperfect" version -- so it must be His will. I would say it's TOO LATE to go back and fix it now. We have 105 years of Tradition, of habit, of precedent, that would have to be undone and wiped out. The Church doesn't work that way. Things with "venerable usage" get preserved.
Dear Matthew,.
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.
and relieve the souls from the Purgatory, especially the most abandoned ones."This is not essentially different that what 99.9% people pray in english. The meaning is the same.
Dear Matthew,Your definition of "error" is way too extreme. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.
Dear Matthew,
Why can't we pray the exact words Our Lady requested the children to repeat when praying HER ROSARY? God does not will error, either active or permissive.
Dear Yeti,I thought this got debunked?
The precise quote from Lucia to Fr. Manuel Nunes Formigao on the night of the apparition in 1917: (Translated into English): "She did teach us, and she wants us to say it after every mystery from the Rosary." "Do you know it by heart?" "I do know." "Say it..."
"Oh my Jesus, forgive us and spare us from the fires of hell and relieve the souls from the Purgatory, especially the most abandoned ones."
The question arose in 1947 from the translation of the word, "alminhas" which means little souls in Purgatory and also the oratories for the souls in Purgatory that Lucia had in her parish church.
The quote is in the book written by Fr. Formigao in 1921, Os Episodios Maravilhosos de Fatima under the pseudonym of Visconde de Montelo. He was appointed by the Bishop of Leiria, Jose Alves Correia da Silva, to make an impartial investigation for the purpose of assessing the truth of the apparitions.
O (mi) Bóne Iésu,
líbera nos a peccatís nóstris;
líbera nos ab ígnibus gehénnae;
perdúc in paradísum ómnes animás præsértim
eas quae plus misericórdia tua indígent!
Dear Matthew,
The correct, precise words spoken by Our Lady were published in 1921, by Fr. Formigao, the Bishop of Leiria's investigator of the apparitions. In the late 1940's, the prayer changed in the English translation from what were Our Lady's words in 1917. It is similar to the ICEL translation of "pro multis" to "for all". The lack of precision creates ambiguity.
Dear Matthew,You wild Texans just put those smokin' guns down and read these articles:
The correct, precise words spoken by Our Lady were published in 1921, by Fr. Formigao, the Bishop of Leiria's investigator of the apparitions. In the late 1940's, the prayer changed in the English translation from what were Our Lady's words in 1917. It is similar to the ICEL translation of "pro multis" to "for all". The lack of precision creates ambiguity.
What is it about men not wanting to do exactly what Our Lady asks? She told the children what to pray verbatim. She gave specific instructions required for the consecration of Russia. And what about the 3rd Secret? Was it revealed to the world by 1960, as She requested? And still....here we are.
In a 1946 interview with Canon Barthas on this controversy, Sister Lucia set the record straight. The Fatima Decade Prayer does not refer to the Holy Souls in Purgatory at all, she assured him, since they are on a sure path to Heaven, but rather to unrepentant sinners since they are in grave danger of damnation.[ . . . ]How, then, did the confusion arise? It was Canon Manuel Formigao who introduced the erroneous version, having mistakenly assumed from the Portuguese word “alminhas” [little souls] that the prayer’s object was the poor souls in Purgatory. With good intentions, he was led by this error to rephrase the prayer to reflect that meaning. In his book Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima, published in 1921, he gave this (as he later admitted) skewed report of his interview with Lucia:
Thank you for confirming my thoughts on this.Answer: Through Sister Lucia’s explicit clarification.In a 1946 interview with Canon Barthas on this controversy, Sister Lucia set the record straight. The Fatima Decade Prayer does not refer to the Holy Souls in Purgatory at all, she assured him, since they are on a sure path to Heaven, but rather to unrepentant sinners since they are in grave danger of damnation. (See Frère Michel’s account of the interview linked below.)
There is a tendency for people to want to seem "smarter" than everyone else with little things like this. It's almost a gnostic attitude where "I know something you don't know." or "I know the REAL meaning of Fatima."
The english translation is more general and inclusive. "Lead all souls to heaven" would include both sinners and those in purgatory. "Especially those in most need of thy mercy" would also include both sinners and those in purgatory.
Problem solved.
It was Canon Manuel Formigao who introduced the erroneous version, having mistakenly assumed from the Portuguese word “alminhas” [little souls] that the prayer’s object was the poor souls in Purgatory. With good intentions, he was led by this error to rephrase the prayer to reflect that meaning. In his book Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima, published in 1921, he gave this (as he later admitted) skewed report of his interview with Lucia:
Did you get that? Is there any reason to dispute it?
Yes, there is "a reason to dispute it."
Yes, there is "a reason to dispute it."Angelus, are you Portuguese, per chance?
In Portuguese language and culture, the word "alminhas" refers unequivocally to the "poor souls in purgatory." The word is a combination of "alma" [soul] and "-inha" (diminutive meaning "little" or "poor").
“When you recite the Rosary, say at the end of each decade: O my Jesus, pardon us our sins; save us from the fire of hell; take all souls to Heaven and help especially those in most need." 5
[ . . . ]
5 Those who first questioned the children thought the Vision had spoken of the souls in Purgatory. But here, as throughout the visions at Fatima, there is question of the salvation of the souls of sinners. So the formula which was at first given is slightly wrong. My translation was approved by Sister Lucia of Jesus, 17th October, 1946.
What about the 1946 interview with Sister Lucia?
Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
No one knows what Sister Lucia actually said in that interview. We only know what someone reported that she said. Prior to that "report," we had 30 years of evidence that the Portuguese word "alminhas" was in the original prayer.Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven. Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there? This request, as you are suggesting, would then be against Church teaching.
All we need to do is determine the meaning of the word "alminhas" as a Portuguese child would have understood it at the time that Our Lady gave Lucia the prayer. That is an objective exercise. All Portuguese in 1917 would have understood to the word "alminhas" to mean one thing: "the poor souls in Purgatory."
If Our Lady had really meant to say "all souls," she could have said "todas as almas," rather than "alminhas." But that is not what Our Lady said to Lucia.
Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven. Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there?
But that's not an argument why Trads need to make the "O My Jesus" prayer mention Purgatory specifically.
A) Trads have ZERO issue maintaining a practical, lively faith in Purgatory
B) Protestants reject the entire Rosary, not just the O My Jesus prayer. So inserting "Purgatory" into the O My Jesus prayer won't help anyone one iota.
Eventually, they'll go to Heaven, some sooner, some later, according to how much purification each soul requires. The reason we pray is to ask to shorten their time in Purgatory, especially for the poor souls who have no one to pray for them.But the "Oh My Jesus" prayer states to lead souls to Heaven. Not to lead souls sooner or to cut short their time in Purgatory.
Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven. Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there? This request, as you are suggesting, would then be against Church teaching.
Because they are "abandoned" in Purgatory. No one thinks to pray for them. They will stay in Purgatory longer without our prayers.Don't twist my words, Angelus. I never said that it's against Church teaching to pray for the souls in Purgatory. I said there is NO NEED to pray that they be LED TO HEAVEN. We should pray for them, but to get them there faster. The latter is NOT what the Fatima prayer states.
Against Church teaching? To pray for the souls in Purgatory? Which Church are you talking about?
But the "Oh My Jesus" prayer states to lead souls to Heaven. Not to lead souls sooner or to cut short their time in Purgatory.
Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.The absurdity of that argument was addressed by Yeti, above.
Dear CathInfo,What was that point, Texana?
Nevermind. You got me. My research does not agree with the Fatima Center. They don't agree with Dr. Chojnowski's research either. You all missed the point, except for one Polish bear. Continue on. Peace out.
But the "Oh My Jesus" prayer states to lead souls to Heaven. Not to lead souls sooner or to cut short their time in Purgatory.
(in general, not necessarily with regard to what the Fatima prayers really are or aren't)
The absurdity of that argument was addressed by Yeti, above.
Every day in the Offertory of the Mass we pray "We offer Thee the chalice of salvation, Lord, imploring Thy mercy that it may be as a sweet fragrance before Thy divine majesty for our salvation and that of the whole world".
To make of the decade prayer an expression of universal salvation is utterly ridiculous.
Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
‘I want you to come here on the 13th of next month, to continue reciting the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace in the world and the end of the war, because only She can help you.’While it is *possible* that our Lady was referencing Purgatory, what is known of the immediate context in which the additional prayer was requested seems to heavily favor concern for souls in danger of damnation, not for the Blessed destined to Heaven.
‘I should like to ask You to tell us who You are, and to work a miracle so that everyone will believe that Your Grace is appearing to us.’
‘Continue to come here every month. In October, I will say who I am and what I want, and I will perform a miracle so that all might see and believe.’
Here I made some requests which I do not remember. What I do remember, is that Our Lady said it was necessary to say the Rosary in order to obtain these graces throughout the year.
Our Lady continued: ‘Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.’
As Our Lady spoke these last words, She opened Her hands once more, as She had done during the two previous months. The rays of light seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw as it were a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision lasted only a moment, thanks to our good Mother of Heaven, Who, at the first apparition, had promised to bring us to Heaven. Without that, I think we would have died of terror and fear.
Terrified and as if to plead for succor, we looked up at Our Lady, who said to us, so kindly and so sadly:
‘You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.
‘To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved, etc. Do not tell this to anybody. Francisco, yes, you may tell him.
‘When you pray the Rosary, say after each mystery: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are most in need.’
After this, there was a moment of silence, and then I asked, ‘Is there anything more that You want of me?’
‘No, I do not want anything more of you today.’
Then, as before, Our Lady began to ascend towards the east, until She finally disappeared.
What was that point, Texana?Why is it that Angelus understands the point precisely and you do not even know what the point is? Please read the posts by Kazmierz and Angelus. You will find the truth there.
If you or Dr Chojnowski have arguments that refute Frere Michel or James Hanisch, please share.
From these articles it appears very clear to me how the confusion came about, and how it was resolved.
Is there something in these articles that is not worthy of our belief? Is there a witness who is untrustworthy? Is there someone or something else that gives the lie to what they say?
The request for the prayer was given during our Lady's apparition of July 13, 1917:
While it is possible that our Lady was referencing Purgatory, what is known of the context in which the additional prayer was requested seems to heavily favor concern for souls in danger of damnation.
No one knows what Sister Lucia actually said in that interview. We only know what someone reported that she said. Prior to that "report," we had 30 years of evidence that the Portuguese word "alminhas" was in the original prayer.Thank you for your perfect posts...I pray that there will be more Catholic men like you who understand. Amen and God bless!
All we need to do is determine the meaning of the word "alminhas" as a Portuguese child would have understood it at the time that Our Lady gave Lucia the prayer. That is an objective exercise. All Portuguese in 1917 would have understood to the word "alminhas" to mean one thing: "the poor souls in Purgatory."
If Our Lady had really meant to say "all souls," she could have said "todas as almas," rather than "alminhas." But that is not what Our Lady said to Lucia.
Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.App1.A2.SC
On the contrary, Gregory says that just as in the same fire gold is reddened while chaff turns to smoke, so in the same fire a sinner reduced to ashes while one of the elect is purified. Therefore, the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place.
..without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair...Unless one now wants to make a case that there is a translation error in using the term "despair" or that there is some nuanced interpretation called for, it is clear that the context is the hell of the damned, as it is impossible, properly speaking, for the Holy Souls to "despair".
Unless one now wants to make a case that there is a translation error in using the term "despair" or that there is some nuanced interpretation called for, it is clear that the context is the hell of the damned, as it is impossible, properly speaking, for the Holy Souls to "despair".
de·spair
/dəˈsper/
(https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=563563987&q=how+to+pronounce+despair&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOMIfcRoyS3w8sc9YSmDSWtOXmPU4uINKMrPK81LzkwsyczPExLmYglJLcoV4pbi5GJPSS0uSMwssmJRYkrN41nEKpGRX65Qkq9QANSSD9STqgBVAQBgNb6fWQAAAA&pron_lang=en&pron_country=us&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSjJTD1ZmBAxUCMDQIHRATCLcQ3eEDegQIDxAI)
noun
noun: despair; plural noun: despairs
- the complete loss or absence of hope.
I just provided a quote from Aquinas (agreeing with a quote from Gregory) that "the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place."For accuracy; as he does throughout the Summa, St. Thomas was offering a contrary opinion to the preceding objections. He offers his opinion prefaced by, "I answer that". In this case his opinion is:
I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm) about the situation of Purgatory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm), nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13001a.htm) made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm). One, according to the common law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm); and thus the place of Purgatory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm) is situated below and in proximity to hell (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm), so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm) and cleanses the just in Purgatory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm); although the damned being lower in merit (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10202b.htm), are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm) is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) to the living may be mitigated through the prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04653a.htm) of the Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm).
Some say, however, that according to the common law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm) the place of Purgatory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm) is where man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) sins (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm) they are punished above us, because they are between us and God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm), as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm).
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm#article2
Why do you find it so hard to believe that, in "the vision," the children saw BOTH the poor souls experiencing Purgatory AND the demons who were stuck in eternal hell? Each group being burned by the same fire in the same place?While it is a possible, and interesting, at least to me, interpretation of what they saw, the translated text does not seem to support the distinctions that you are reading into it.
Your own quote states that there were two groups: "Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form." The demons are the ones in "despair." They are described as "black and transparent like burning coals." The souls in human form are described as looking like "burnished bronze."
So nothing in your quote would make me doubt that the children saw ALL OF Hell, which includes both Purgatory and Gehenna. Rather, it confirms it.
Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision lasted only a moment, thanks to our good Mother of Heaven, Who, at the first apparition, had promised to bring us to Heaven. Without that, I think we would have died of terror and fear.Is the English translation so poorly done that it is not giving an accurate sense of the original? If yes, do you have a better translation or commentary?
Terrified and as if to plead for succor, we looked up at Our Lady, who said to us, so kindly and so sadly:
‘You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.
You were referencing the following words from my earlier post:Sorry Angelus, my mistake.
Where did I say that "the decade prayer" was "an expression of universal salvation?" Short answer. I didn't say that. You just made it up.
Why is it that Angelus understands the point precisely and you do not even know what the point is? Please read the posts by Kazmierz and Angelus. You will find the truth there.Thanks, Texana, I'll do that.
I am not Portuguese, but I speak Portuguese. I am Brazilian.That is a valuable contribution GB, thank you.
I have never heard that "alminhas" means "souls in Purgatory". To me it simply means "little souls".
I have done a very quick search and I have found this:
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alminhas (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alminhas)
It is a Wikipedia article that says that the word "alminhas" means, in Portugal, a little "wayside shrine" dedicated to the souls in Purgatory.
It doesn't make any sense to imagine that Our Lady mentioned small road chapels or wayside shrines on the prayer that she taught the Fatima children seers.
By the way, here in Brazil what we pray corresponds to an exact translation of this prayer: "O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are most in need." No mention of Purgatory at all. And we don't use the word "alminhas" we use "almas", which means "souls".
Dear CathInfo,
Nevermind. You got me. My research does not agree with the Fatima Center. They don't agree with Dr. Chojnowski's research either. You all missed the point, except for one Polish bear. Continue on. Peace out.
Yes, there is "a reason to dispute it."
In Portuguese language and culture, the word "alminhas" refers unequivocally to the "poor souls in purgatory." The word is a combination of "alma" [soul] and "-inha" (diminutive meaning "little" or "poor").
Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven. Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there? This request, as you are suggesting, would then be against Church teaching.
No one knows what Sister Lucia actually said in that interview. We only know what someone reported that she said. Prior to that "report," we had 30 years of evidence that the Portuguese word "alminhas" was in the original prayer.
It is to help us, the living, remember the Poor Souls in Purgatory. We are asking for God's mercy for those souls, that they are lead to Heaven sooner rather than later. It is an act of Charity on our part.
You may be familiar with the prayer "May the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace," right? The "faithful departed" referenced in that prayer are the souls currently in Purgatory. We are asking that they rest in peace, aka they they be led to Heaven. There is no peace in Purgatory. There is fire there.
The request for the prayer was given during our Lady's apparition of July 13, 1917:
While it is *possible* that our Lady was referencing Purgatory, what is known of the immediate context in which the additional prayer was requested seems to heavily favor concern for souls in danger of damnation, not for the Blessed destined to Heaven.
Thank you for your perfect posts...I pray that there will be more Catholic men like you who understand. Amen and God bless!
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.App1.A2.SC
On the contrary, Gregory says that just as in the same fire gold is reddened while chaff turns to smoke, so in the same fire a sinner reduced to ashes while one of the elect is purified. Therefore, the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place.
Why is it that Angelus understands the point precisely and you do not even know what the point is? Please read the posts by Kazmierz and Angelus. You will find the truth there.
And what would come, in my opinion, would be needless division and fighting. And the devil would be laughing his burning red ass off the whole time.And you are correct Matthew. As evidenced by the results of this thread.
Alminhas are altarpieces in the shape of tiny chapels outside buildings dedicated to the souls of the Purgatory. Formally, they represent the souls being rescued from the flames of Purgatory by angels, or aided by the Virgin or by St. Michael, the Archangel. Topographically, they are essentially located along the roads, in spots where someone died, intersections of roads and waypoints like access to bridges. Alminhas are apotropaic and prophylactic marks that sacralize places, marking them as spots that legends and beliefs consecrated as passages between two worlds. Its edification was done by communities or by anonymous persons based on orders related with promises. Nevertheless, Alminhas usually have inscriptions asking prayers for the souls. Frases like “Vos que ides passando, lembrai-vos de nós que estamos penado10” or “Neste espelho podeis ver o que um dia vireis a ser11” are placed trying to call some empathetic reactions from the believers. While until the twentieth century the style of the architectural composition was somehow unevenly, according to material constraints, devotions and particular beliefs or places, from the late nineteenth century, Alminhas began to be produced in modular workshops which initially withdrew from them the particularities formerly known and recognized. However, these modular compositions have found success amongst the populations. Today it is rare to find Alminhas older than those from the twentieth century. Niches commonly identified as being from the eighteenth century which probably housed Alminhas from the same era, now show ceramic tiles made in the workshops of the twentieth century, or sometimes images corresponding to modern devotions to Our Lady of Fatima or the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
Populations used to embody and respond to the new aesthetic models, associating them to new ways of representing and also to more recent devotions. Even though the Virgin of the Rosary remains the main Marian devotion figured in the Alminhas, after the apparitions of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal in the early twentieth century, this devotion has expanded and became a common iconographic representation of her image with the three shepherd children, surmounting the souls in Purgatory.
10 “You, who are passing through, please recall of us who are suffering”
11 “In this mirror you may see whom you will become one day”
Isn't it interesting that in what will probably be the last thing to unite Catholics in The End Times, the recitation of the Rosary, there is now division?
Leave it to Trads though to argue about NOTHING when there are MUCH, MUCH bigger fish to fry.
This too is a good point. Those in Purgatory needn't be led to Heaven. They're being led to Heaven ... albeit on a pretty rugged path. This is clearly an expression to save souls. Our Lady at Fatima showed the children the vision of Hell, not Purgatory, and the children were thus inspired to constantly due penance for "sinners" and not for souls in Purgatory.
That was an excellent point Ladislaus made -- that Fatima as a whole was about saving sinners from damnation -- not relief for the Church Suffering (who are already saved) in Purgatory.
So this whole controversy doesn't even make sense from a big-picture perspective.
Leave it to Trads though to argue about NOTHING when there are MUCH, MUCH bigger fish to fry.
So, it is NOT necessary to change the words you use when you say the Fatima Prayer.The OPs whole point was to change the words. Most on this thread agree with you - it’s unnecessary.
The OPs whole point was to change the words. Most on this thread agree with you - it’s unnecessary.
So it there something wrong theologically with "O My Jesus prayer"?
So whenever you say the Fatima Prayer, please remember that Our Lady wants you to think of the "poor souls in Purgatory" when you say "lead all souls to heaven...."So this is the bad translation issue then. Was that prayer approved by Church?
So this is the bad translation issue then. Was that prayer approved by Church?
And yet that is exactly what you continue to do.
There is no need to argue about this.
So can someone give me the link to the "correct" O My Jesus prayer?
I was always troubled by the Fatima prayer. Something about it never sat right with me, and it was always regarding the "lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy."
Why would some souls heading to hell have more need of mercy than others? All souls who end up in hell are need of the same mercy - saving grace - before they go there.
The damned are out of the range of the mercy of God.
Why do you assume the prayer is talking about DEPARTED souls exclusively? Aren't there 7 billion+ SOULS on earth right now? Those are souls too, are they not? Aren't they all in need of God's mercy, some more than others?Dear Matthew,
And yes, some men need God's mercy more than others. A man on death row is in a much more miserable state, a lower state, and so it could be said he "needs God's mercy more" than the average Trad Catholic who goes to Mass every Sunday. We all need God's grace to be saved -- but some are in more desperate need of it than others.
We all need justice. But a falsely accused man, on death row for murder, is in more need of Justice than you or I. That's the sense in which some "are more in need of God's mercy".
And no, all mercy is not equal. Imagine a king forgiving a man for a petty theft vs. a king forgiving another man who murdered a member of the Royal Court. Yes, all are guilty of sin, and on the receiving end of God's mercy. But we're not all equal! Not even close. What have you been drinking? No two sinners are equal in their guilt before God. So again, those with one foot in hell are asking a LOT more from God's mercy than a "petty crime" sinner. Our Lord spoke about this on more than one occasion. About how "he who is forgiven more, loves more" citing Mary Magdalene as an example.
And it's a fact that the whole Fatima serious of apparitions was about saving SOULS from Hell. Not shortening the stay in Purgatory or assuaging the sufferings of the Poor Souls in Purgatory. That is a good work, a praiseworthy work, but not the focus of the Fatima apparitions AT ALL.
Our Lady showed a vision of Hell to the children, and said that "Many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them", etc. She did not show them a vision of Purgatory.
Fatima had *nothing at all* to do with Purgatory. Only the souls on earth, most of whom are in danger of going to hell.
Why are you so adverse to praying for the "little souls" in Purgatory, the original phrase chosen by Our Lady?The prayer, as most people pray it, says "lead all souls to heaven", which includes both sinners and the poor souls.
Dear Matthew,
Do you not understand that Purgatory, flames included, is part of Hell, as is Limbo of the Just? It certainly is not part of Heaven. Why are you so adverse to praying for the "little souls" in Purgatory, the original phrase chosen by Our Lady?
We all need to be wary of the humanistic spirit of modernism that "is in the very air we breathe", as Bishop Williamson often says.
We all need to be wary of the humanistic spirit of modernism that "is in the very air we breathe", as Bishop Williamson often says.
Answer: Through Sister Lucia’s explicit clarification.In a 1946 interview with Canon Barthas on this controversy, Sister Lucia set the record straight. The Fatima Decade Prayer does not refer to the Holy Souls in Purgatory at all, she assured him, since they are on a sure path to Heaven, but rather to unrepentant sinners since they are in grave danger of damnation. (See Frère Michel’s account of the interview linked below.)Moreover, it was in the manner in which the prayer is currently recited that the child Lucia related it to her pastor, Father Ferreira, in an interrogation of August 21, 1917, only a little more than a month after Our Lady had taught it to the children. This is also the way Sister Lucia recorded it in her Third and Fourth Memoirs in 1941, noting explicitly in her Third Memoir, “Now Your Excellency will understand how my own impression was that the final words of this prayer refer to souls in greatest danger of damnation, or those who are nearest to it.” We reproduce here the relevant lines from the manuscript of the Fourth Memoir:(See António Maria Martins, S.J., Memórias e Cartas da Irmã Lúcia, pp. 340-343.)
This here SHOULD have been the end of this thread."Lead all souls to heaven, especially in those in need of thy mercy" means in my opinion: those souls here on earth in need of confession and repentance to enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Why do you assume the prayer is talking about DEPARTED souls exclusively? Aren't there 7 billion+ SOULS on earth right now? Those are souls too, are they not? Aren't they all in need of God's mercy, some more than others?
And yes, some men need God's mercy more than others. A man on death row is in a much more miserable state, a lower state, and so it could be said he "needs God's mercy more" than the average Trad Catholic who goes to Mass every Sunday. We all need God's grace to be saved -- but some are in more desperate need of it than others.
We all need justice. But a falsely accused man, on death row for murder, is in more need of Justice than you or I. That's the sense in which some "are more in need of God's mercy".
And no, all mercy is not equal. Imagine a king forgiving a man for a petty theft vs. a king forgiving another man who murdered a member of the Royal Court. Yes, all are guilty of sin, and on the receiving end of God's mercy. But we're not all equal! Not even close. What have you been drinking? No two sinners are equal in their guilt before God. So again, those with one foot in hell are asking a LOT more from God's mercy than a "petty crime" sinner. Our Lord spoke about this on more than one occasion. About how "he who is forgiven more, loves more" citing Mary Magdalene as an example.
And it's a fact that the whole Fatima serious of apparitions was about saving SOULS from Hell. Not shortening the stay in Purgatory or assuaging the sufferings of the Poor Souls in Purgatory. That is a good work, a praiseworthy work, but not the focus of the Fatima apparitions AT ALL.
Our Lady showed a vision of Hell to the children, and said that "Many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray for them", etc. She did not show them a vision of Purgatory.
Fatima had *nothing at all* to do with Purgatory. Only the souls on earth, most of whom are in danger of going to hell.
From Haydock Commentary on Romans 9:10
For as, antecedently, to his grace, he sees no merit in any, but finds all involved in sin, in the common mass of condemnation; and all children of wrath; there is no one whom he might not justly leave in that mass; so that whomsoever he delivers from it, he delivers in his mercy: and whomsoever he leaves in it, he leaves in his justice. As when, of two equally criminal, the king is pleased out of pure mercy to pardon one, whilst he suffers justice to take place in the execution of the other. (Challoner)
One condemned man doesn't need "more" of that precious Blood than another.:confused: So an atheist who rejects God is not in worse shape than a catholic who struggles with anger? Certainly the atheist is more in need of God's mercy, as he (humanly speaking) has 0.01% of salvation in his present state. He’s not even “in the ballpark” of salvation.
:confused: So an atheist who rejects God is not in worse shape than a catholic who struggles with anger? Certainly the atheist is more in need of God's mercy, as he (humanly speaking) has 0.01% of salvation in his present state. He’s not even “in the ballpark” of salvation.
No, the one man doesn't need "more mercy." Both men need the grace of God, they need God working to save them. Period.
Does God work "harder" for the one man than another to save them?
We are indeed "drinking" a different brew on this.Decem, you need to check the label on that brew, mate!
We are born condemned simply by our conception, as sons and daughters of Adam. No one "condemned" person needs "more mercy" than another of the condemned to escape hell. Hell is the default for all men. We are all conceived and born as "children of wrath."...
It is simply not true that some condemned men "especially" need mercy. Heaven is granted to some men while all equally deserve eternal death, like the two thieves hanging next to Christ on Calvary.
...the Fatima prayer borders on theologically insanity if we are praying that all men go to heaven despite the revelation of God that "all men" don't...
You may be right, - we don't know, and we're not required to agree with you. So I'll continue to "drink" what I"m drinking, thanks.
Decem, you need to check the label on that brew, mate!
Right here and now, as we pray, we are not all unbaptised newborn babies condemned to hell. There are souls of good will, living in the grace of God, whom Our Heavenly Father looks upon with delight. And there are those at enmity with God who are on the brink of damnation. If God were to call each and everyone of us to account at this moment, you say there would be no difference in the need of these souls? You need to do a course in the meaning of words!
"Pray very much and make sacrifices for sinners for many souls go to hell because they have no one to pray and make sacrifices for them". If your common sense doesn't tell you, these words of Our Lady of Fatima do: sinners (unrepentant being implied) have greater need, here and now, than the just, of prayer to obtain God's mercy for them to save their souls.
"There shall be joy in Heaven upon one sinner that doth penance more than upon ninety-nine just that need not penance".
One who is gravely sick needs a physician, the healthy do not. Those in the state of sin especially need prayer and penance.
"Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ".
The grace of God truly makes us worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven. Those at enmity with God especially need His mercy that they may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. Even more urgently do those poor souls in the state of sin who are now at the moment of death. This is not rocket science, Decem, but I fear that is what you are trying to make it.
If not all souls go to Heaven, as you point out, do you mean to suggest that we should not pray for all? It is God's Will that all should be saved. We pray for God's Will: "Thy Will be done on earth"... yet alas, it will often not be done (we are talking here about God's antecedent Will, the obvious meaning of the prayer). It may very well be that this or that soul did not go to Heaven, because I did not pray and sacrifice for him, because I was not faithful to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, because I did not become the saint that God wanted me to become. Which of us can free ourselves from guilt on this account? How many souls might have gone to Heaven if I had been faithful? It is a sobering and humbling meditation...
Those at enmity with God especially need His mercy that they may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
If not all souls go to Heaven, as you point out, do you mean to suggest that we should not pray for all? It is God's Will that all should be saved. We pray for God's Will: "Thy Will be done on earth"... yet alas, it will often not be done (we are talking here about God's antecedent Will, the obvious meaning of the prayer). It may very well be that this or that soul did not go to Heaven, because I did not pray and sacrifice for him, because I was not faithful to the inspirations of the Holy Ghost, because I did not become the saint that God wanted me to become. Which of us can free ourselves from guilt on this account? How many souls might have gone to Heaven if I had been faithful? It is a sobering and humbling meditation...
The first condition then of prayer is, that you make it "for yourself"; because St. Thomas holds, that one man cannot "ex condigno" [i.e. in the fitness of things] obtain for another eternal life; nor, consequently, even those graces which are requisite for his salvation. Since, as he says, the promise is made not to others, but only to those that pray: "He shall give to you." Nevertheless, there are many theologians, Cornelius a Lapide, Sylvester, Tolet, Habert, and others, who hold the opposite doctrine, on the authority of St. Basil, who teaches that prayer, by virtue of God's promise, is infallibly efficacious, even for those for whom we pray, provided they put no positive impediment in the way. And they support their doctrine by Scripture: "Pray one for another, that you may be saved; for the continual prayer of the just man availeth much." [James 5: 16] "Pray for them that persecute and calumniate you." [Luke 6: 28]
Liguori, Alphonsus. Prayer: The Great Means of Salvation and of Perfection (p. 39). Veritatis Splendor Publications. Kindle Edition.
Council of Trent, Session VI
CHAPTER IV.
A Description is interwoven[16] of the Justification of the Impious, and of the Manner thereof under the State of Grace.
By which words a description of the Justification of the impious is interwoven, to the effect that it is a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, into the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God,[17] through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the Gospel has been promulgated, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration,[18] or the desire thereof, as it is written; Unless a man be born again of water and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
CHAPTER XIV.
On the Fallen, and their Restoration.
But those who through sin have fallen away from the received grace of justification, may again be justified, when, God exciting them, through the sacrament of penance, they, by the merit of Christ, shall have obtained the recovery of the grace lost. For this manner of justification is unto the fallen the reparation, which the holy fathers have aptly called a second plank after the shipwreck of grace lost.[79] For, on behalf of those who after baptism fall into sins, Christ Jesus instituted the sacrament of penance, when He said, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whosesoever sins ye shall remit, they are remitted unto them, and whosesoever sins ye shall retain, they are retained.[80] Whence it is to be taught, that the penitence of a Christian man after his fall, is very different from that at his baptism; and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart,[81] but also the sacramental confession of the same sins, at least in desire, and to be made in its season, and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, almsgivings, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment, which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament; but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism, unto those who, ungrateful to the grace of God which they have received, have grieved the Holy Spirit,[82] and have not feared to defile the temple of God.[83] Concerning which penitence it is written: Remember from whence thou art fallen; do penance, and do the first works.[84] And again: The sorrow that is according to God worketh penance steadfast unto salvation.[85] And again: Do penance, and bring forth fruits worthy of penance.[86]