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Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?  (Read 8165 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2023, 05:19:25 PM »
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  • Because they are "abandoned" in Purgatory. No one thinks to pray for them. They will stay in Purgatory longer without our prayers.

    Against Church teaching? To pray for the souls in Purgatory? Which Church are you talking about?
    Don't twist my words, Angelus.  I never said that it's against Church teaching to pray for the souls in Purgatory.  I said there is NO NEED to pray that they be LED TO HEAVEN. We should pray for them, but to get them there faster. The latter is NOT what the Fatima prayer states. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #46 on: September 07, 2023, 05:20:23 PM »
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  • But the "Oh My Jesus" prayer states to lead souls to Heaven.  Not to lead souls sooner or to cut short their time in Purgatory.

    It is to help us, the living, remember the Poor Souls in Purgatory. We are asking for God's mercy for those souls, that they are lead to Heaven sooner rather than later. It is an act of Charity on our part.

    You may be familiar with the prayer "May the souls of the faithful departed rest in peace," right? The "faithful departed" referenced in that prayer are the souls currently in Purgatory. We are asking that they rest in peace, aka they they be led to Heaven. There is no peace in Purgatory. There is fire there.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #47 on: September 07, 2023, 05:29:48 PM »
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  • Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
    The absurdity of that argument was addressed by Yeti, above.
    Every day in the Offertory of the Mass we pray "We offer Thee the chalice of salvation, Lord, imploring Thy mercy that it may be as a sweet fragrance before Thy divine majesty for our salvation and that of the whole world".
    To make of the decade prayer an expression of universal salvation is utterly ridiculous.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #48 on: September 07, 2023, 05:36:56 PM »
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  • Dear CathInfo,

    Nevermind.  You got me.  My research does not agree with the Fatima Center.  They don't agree with Dr. Chojnowski's research either.  You all missed the point, except for one Polish bear.  Continue on.  Peace out.
    What was that point, Texana?
    If you or Dr Chojnowski have arguments that refute Frere Michel or James Hanisch, please share.
    From these articles it appears very clear to me how the confusion came about, and how it was resolved.
    Is there something in these articles that is not worthy of our belief? Is there a witness who is untrustworthy? Is there someone or something else that gives the lie to what they say? 

    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #49 on: September 07, 2023, 05:53:27 PM »
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  • But the "Oh My Jesus" prayer states to lead souls to Heaven.  Not to lead souls sooner or to cut short their time in Purgatory.

    Sorry, edited after your reply:

    Quote
    (in general, not necessarily with regard to what the Fatima prayers really are or aren't)

    I'm looking at the little card I carry around of the Litany for the Poor Souls in Purgatory, completely unrelated to Fatima. Two sides, several dozen lines long, lots of scenarios. It would seem that traditional Catholics implicitly get that it's necessary to pray for those souls in at least some of our prayers, and that's what I always assumed was the basic intent too of the O My Jesus....

    As for the ambiguity of the Fatima decade prayer, if we have to consider which souls are "most in need of Thy mercy", the ones who've already had their Particular Judgment seem to warrant more intercession than do the souls on earth still ambling around and doing as they please, no?
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #50 on: September 07, 2023, 05:55:00 PM »
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  • The absurdity of that argument was addressed by Yeti, above.
    Every day in the Offertory of the Mass we pray "We offer Thee the chalice of salvation, Lord, imploring Thy mercy that it may be as a sweet fragrance before Thy divine majesty for our salvation and that of the whole world".
    To make of the decade prayer an expression of universal salvation is utterly ridiculous.

    You were referencing the following words from my earlier post:

    Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.

    Where did I say that "the decade prayer" was "an expression of universal salvation?" Short answer. I didn't say that. You just made it up. 

    What I said was that the NuChurch wanted to eliminate references to "Purgatory" in commonly-said prayers. The reason is that the doctrine on Purgatory is antithetical to the false Ecuмenism that the NuChurch was promoting. The "Fatima Prayer" unequivocally referenced the "poor souls in Purgatory."

    The translations of the original Portuguese prayers performed a "magic trick." These translations papered-over the traditional Catholic need to pray for the souls in Purgatory and replaced that with a more generic prayer for "all souls" that moves the average Catholic in the direction of the Protestant mentality. 

    I didn't say it was evil or wrong to pray for all people. But, in its wisdom, the Catholic church has always thought it important to encourage prayers specifically for the "souls in Purgatory." That is what the original Fatima prayer did, and what the later translations of the Fatima prayer do not do. The evidence of the success of the NuChurch is the vehement opposition seen in this thread to the idea that Our Lady would have specifically requested that we pray for "the poor souls in Purgatory."

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #51 on: September 07, 2023, 06:10:23 PM »
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  • The request for the prayer was given during our Lady's apparition of July 13, 1917:


    Quote
    ‘I want you to come here on the 13th of next month, to continue reciting the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace in the world and the end of the war, because only She can help you.’
    ‘I should like to ask You to tell us who You are, and to work a miracle so that everyone will believe that Your Grace is appearing to us.’
    ‘Continue to come here every month. In October, I will say who I am and what I want, and I will perform a miracle so that all might see and believe.’
    Here I made some requests which I do not remember. What I do remember, is that Our Lady said it was necessary to say the Rosary in order to obtain these graces throughout the year.
    Our Lady continued: ‘Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.’
    As Our Lady spoke these last words, She opened Her hands once more, as She had done during the two previous months. The rays of light seemed to penetrate the earth, and we saw as it were a sea of fire. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision lasted only a moment, thanks to our good Mother of Heaven, Who, at the first apparition, had promised to bring us to Heaven. Without that, I think we would have died of terror and fear.
    Terrified and as if to plead for succor, we looked up at Our Lady, who said to us, so kindly and so sadly:
    You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father.
    ‘To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays. If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated. In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world. In Portugal, the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved, etc. Do not tell this to anybody. Francisco, yes, you may tell him.
    ‘When you pray the Rosary, say after each mystery: O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are most in need.’
    After this, there was a moment of silence, and then I asked, ‘Is there anything more that You want of me?’
    ‘No, I do not want anything more of you today.’
    Then, as before, Our Lady began to ascend towards the east, until She finally disappeared.
    While it is *possible* that our Lady was referencing Purgatory, what is known of the immediate context in which the additional prayer was requested seems to heavily favor concern for souls in danger of damnation, not for the Blessed destined to Heaven.
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #52 on: September 07, 2023, 06:14:15 PM »
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  • What was that point, Texana?
    If you or Dr Chojnowski have arguments that refute Frere Michel or James Hanisch, please share.
    From these articles it appears very clear to me how the confusion came about, and how it was resolved.
    Is there something in these articles that is not worthy of our belief? Is there a witness who is untrustworthy? Is there someone or something else that gives the lie to what they say?
    Why is it that Angelus understands the point precisely and you do not even know what the point is?  Please read the posts by Kazmierz and Angelus.  You will find the truth there.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #53 on: September 07, 2023, 06:19:14 PM »
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  • The request for the prayer was given during our Lady's apparition of July 13, 1917:

    While it is possible that our Lady was referencing Purgatory, what is known of the context in which the additional prayer was requested seems to heavily favor concern for souls in danger of damnation.

    https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.App1.A2.SC

    On the contrary, Gregory says that just as in the same fire gold is reddened while chaff turns to smoke, so in the same fire a sinner reduced to ashes while one of the elect is purified. Therefore, the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #54 on: September 07, 2023, 06:23:37 PM »
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  • No one knows what Sister Lucia actually said in that interview. We only know what someone reported that she said. Prior to that "report," we had 30 years of evidence that the Portuguese word "alminhas" was in the original prayer.

    All we need to do is determine the meaning of the word "alminhas" as a Portuguese child would have understood it at the time that Our Lady gave Lucia the prayer. That is an objective exercise. All Portuguese in 1917 would have understood to the word "alminhas" to mean one thing: "the poor souls in Purgatory."

    If Our Lady had really meant to say "all souls," she could have said "todas as almas," rather than "alminhas." But that is not what Our Lady said to Lucia.

    Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
    Thank you for your perfect posts...I pray that there will be more Catholic men like you who understand.  Amen and God bless!

    Offline Emile

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #55 on: September 07, 2023, 06:38:44 PM »
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  • https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~ST.IIISup.App1.A2.SC

    On the contrary, Gregory says that just as in the same fire gold is reddened while chaff turns to smoke, so in the same fire a sinner reduced to ashes while one of the elect is purified. Therefore, the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place.

    Quote
    ..without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair...
    Unless one now wants to make a case that there is a translation error in using the term "despair" or that there is some nuanced interpretation called for, it is clear that the context is the hell of the damned, as it is impossible, properly speaking, for the Holy Souls to "despair".

    de·spair
    /dəˈsper/

    noun
    noun: despair; plural noun: despairs
    • the complete loss or absence of hope.

    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #56 on: September 07, 2023, 07:03:31 PM »
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  • Regardless of what any of us think, or prove, the Church authorities translated this prayer into English.   Pre-V2.  It’s not our prayer to change.  No matter if every Trad on earth agreed that it should change, we don’t have the authority to do so.  It has nothing to do with “men not doing anything”.  It has to do with authority.  

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #57 on: September 07, 2023, 07:08:11 PM »
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  • Unless one now wants to make a case that there is a translation error in using the term "despair" or that there is some nuanced interpretation called for, it is clear that the context is the hell of the damned, as it is impossible, properly speaking, for the Holy Souls to "despair".

    de·spair
    /dəˈsper/

    noun
    noun: despair; plural noun: despairs
    • the complete loss or absence of hope.

    I just provided a quote from Aquinas (agreeing with a quote from Gregory) that "the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place."

    Why do you find it so hard to believe that, in "the vision," the children saw BOTH the poor souls experiencing Purgatory AND the demons who were stuck in eternal hell? Each group being burned by the same fire in the same place?

    Your own quote states that there were two groups: "Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form." The demons are the ones in "despair." They are described as "black and transparent like burning coals." The souls in human form are described as looking like "burnished bronze."

    So nothing in your quote would make me doubt that the children saw ALL OF Hell, which includes both Purgatory and Gehenna. Rather, it confirms it.


    Offline Emile

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #58 on: September 07, 2023, 10:12:59 PM »
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  • I just provided a quote from Aquinas (agreeing with a quote from Gregory) that "the fire of purgatory and of hell is the same, and thus they are in the same place."
    For accuracy; as he does throughout the Summa, St. Thomas was offering a contrary opinion to the preceding objections. He offers his opinion prefaced by, "I answer that". In this case his opinion is:


    Quote
    I answer that, Nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church.

    Some say, however, that according to the common law the place of Purgatory is where man sins. This does not seem probable, since a man may be punished at the same time for sins committed in various places. And others say that according to the common law they are punished above us, because they are between us and God, as regards their state. But this is of no account, for they are not punished for being above us, but for that which is lowest in them, namely sin.

    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/7001.htm#article2




    Why do you find it so hard to believe that, in "the vision," the children saw BOTH the poor souls experiencing Purgatory AND the demons who were stuck in eternal hell? Each group being burned by the same fire in the same place?

    Your own quote states that there were two groups: "Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form." The demons are the ones in "despair." They are described as "black and transparent like burning coals." The souls in human form are described as looking like "burnished bronze."

    So nothing in your quote would make me doubt that the children saw ALL OF Hell, which includes both Purgatory and Gehenna. Rather, it confirms it.
    While it is a possible, and interesting, at least to me, interpretation of what they saw, the translated text does not seem to support the distinctions that you are reading into it.

    Quote
    Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. (It must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision lasted only a moment, thanks to our good Mother of Heaven, Who, at the first apparition, had promised to bring us to Heaven. Without that, I think we would have died of terror and fear.
    Terrified and as if to plead for succor, we looked up at Our Lady, who said to us, so kindly and so sadly:

    ‘You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them
    , God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.
    Is the English translation so poorly done that it is not giving an accurate sense of the original? If yes, do you have a better translation or commentary?
    If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?

    ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #59 on: September 07, 2023, 10:48:03 PM »
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  • I am not Portuguese, but I speak Portuguese. I am Brazilian.

    I have never heard that "alminhas" means "souls in Purgatory". To me it simply means "little souls".

    I have done a very quick search and I have found this:

    https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alminhas

    It is a Wikipedia article that says that the word "alminhas" means, in Portugal, a little "wayside shrine" dedicated to the souls in Purgatory. 

    It doesn't make any sense to imagine that Our Lady mentioned small road chapels or wayside shrines on the prayer that she taught the Fatima children seers.

    By the way, here in Brazil what we pray corresponds to an exact translation of this prayer: "O my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are most in need." No mention of Purgatory at all. And we don't use the word "alminhas" we use "almas", which means "souls".