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Author Topic: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?  (Read 8177 times)

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Offline Texana

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Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2023, 07:42:58 AM »
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  • Dear CathInfo,

    Nevermind.  You got me.  My research does not agree with the Fatima Center.  They don't agree with Dr. Chojnowski's research either.  You all missed the point, except for one Polish bear.  Continue on.  Peace out.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #31 on: September 07, 2023, 08:27:52 AM »
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  • The english translation is more general and inclusive.  "Lead all souls to heaven" would include both sinners and those in purgatory.  "Especially those in most need of thy mercy" would also include both sinners and those in purgatory.

    Problem solved.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #32 on: September 07, 2023, 03:03:08 PM »
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  • There is a tendency for people to want to seem "smarter" than everyone else with little things like this.  It's almost a gnostic attitude where "I know something you don't know."  or "I know the REAL meaning of Fatima."

    Yes, it's "the purity spiral" -- becoming more and more "pure" or "Trad" than your peers, until you're the last Catholic left on Earth, and you stay at home (a dogmatic Home Aloner) aloof from all Catholics and all groups, praying your own private/favorite prayers, wallowing in all your various opinions, and maybe a bit sad -- or not -- that no one in the world is smart but you.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #33 on: September 07, 2023, 04:12:25 PM »
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  • The english translation is more general and inclusive.  "Lead all souls to heaven" would include both sinners and those in purgatory.  "Especially those in most need of thy mercy" would also include both sinners and those in purgatory.

    Problem solved.

    Right.  If you read histories of Fatima, the children were constantly motivated to do penance for sinners who were headed to Hell; they were moved deeply by the vision of those in Hell.  So I have a hard time believing that Our Lady, who had so inspired them, would them give them a prayer that would exclude these very souls but focus on those who are already assured of their salvation.  As you said, "those in most need of they Mercy" is all-inclusive.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #34 on: September 07, 2023, 04:26:21 PM »
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  • It was Canon Manuel Formigao who introduced the erroneous version, having mistakenly assumed from the Portuguese word “alminhas” [little souls] that the prayer’s object was the poor souls in Purgatory. With good intentions, he was led by this error to rephrase the prayer to reflect that meaning. In his book Os Episódios Maravilhosos de Fátima, published in 1921, he gave this (as he later admitted) skewed report of his interview with Lucia:

    Did you get that? Is there any reason to dispute it?

    Yes, there is "a reason to dispute it."

    In Portuguese language and culture, the word "alminhas" refers unequivocally to the "poor souls in purgatory." The word is a combination of "alma" [soul] and "-inha" (diminutive meaning "little" or "poor").

    It is a colloquialism that only someone from Portugal would understand without an explanation. In that sense, it is similar to the words "redneck" or "yankee" in the USA, which refer to a distinction that only an American would understand.

    The expression is very well-known in Portugal, as you can see in the secularist description on this Portuguese governmental website:

    https://www-snpcultura-org.translate.goog/vol_alminhas.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

    There are "niches" all over Portugal called "Nichos de Alminhas do Purgatório." You can see and read about them here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alminhas


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #35 on: September 07, 2023, 04:29:22 PM »
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  • Yes, there is "a reason to dispute it."


    What about the 1946 interview with Sister Lucia?
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #36 on: September 07, 2023, 04:35:42 PM »
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  • Yes, there is "a reason to dispute it."

    In Portuguese language and culture, the word "alminhas" refers unequivocally to the "poor souls in purgatory." The word is a combination of "alma" [soul] and "-inha" (diminutive meaning "little" or "poor").
    Angelus, are you Portuguese, per chance?
    I am really surprised to read this - that 'alminhas' refers unequivocally to the poor souls in purgatory.
    That it is a common expression for the souls in purgatory, there is no doubt, but unequivocal - are you absolutely sure?
    In English we say the poor souls. But we also use that expression when referring to sinners on the path to Hell. I can think of one retreat master in particular who laments the lot of sinners "those poor poor souls".
    If you are correct, what does that make of everything said by Frere Michel and James Hanisch? What does that make of the reported interviews with Sr Lucy that they mention? How do you resolve this?

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #37 on: September 07, 2023, 04:38:25 PM »
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  • Three children : our Lady's three messengers of Fatima

    Canon Casimir Barthas

    1953


    https://archive.org/details/threechildrenour0000bart/page/68/mode/2up



    Page 68



    Quote
    “When you recite the Rosary, say at the end of each decade: O my Jesus, pardon us our sins; save us from the fire of hell; take all souls to Heaven and help especially those in most need." 5


    [ . . . ]


    5 Those who first questioned the children thought the Vision had spoken of the souls in Purgatory. But here, as throughout the visions at Fatima, there is question of the salvation of the souls of sinners. So the formula which was at first given is slightly wrong. My translation was approved by Sister Lucia of Jesus, 17th October, 1946.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #38 on: September 07, 2023, 04:50:58 PM »
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  • What about the 1946 interview with Sister Lucia?

    No one knows what Sister Lucia actually said in that interview. We only know what someone reported that she said. Prior to that "report," we had 30 years of evidence that the Portuguese word "alminhas" was in the original prayer.

    All we need to do is determine the meaning of the word "alminhas" as a Portuguese child would have understood it at the time that Our Lady gave Lucia the prayer. That is an objective exercise. All Portuguese in 1917 would have understood to the word "alminhas" to mean one thing: "the poor souls in Purgatory."

    If Our Lady had really meant to say "all souls," she could have said "todas as almas," rather than "alminhas." But that is not what Our Lady said to Lucia.

    Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #39 on: September 07, 2023, 05:00:34 PM »
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  • Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.

    But that's not an argument why Trads need to make the "O My Jesus" prayer mention Purgatory specifically.
    A) Trads have ZERO issue maintaining a practical, lively faith in Purgatory
    B) Protestants reject the entire Rosary, not just the O My Jesus prayer. So inserting "Purgatory" into the O My Jesus prayer won't help anyone one iota.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #40 on: September 07, 2023, 05:01:17 PM »
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  • No one knows what Sister Lucia actually said in that interview. We only know what someone reported that she said. Prior to that "report," we had 30 years of evidence that the Portuguese word "alminhas" was in the original prayer.

    All we need to do is determine the meaning of the word "alminhas" as a Portuguese child would have understood it at the time that Our Lady gave Lucia the prayer. That is an objective exercise. All Portuguese in 1917 would have understood to the word "alminhas" to mean one thing: "the poor souls in Purgatory."

    If Our Lady had really meant to say "all souls," she could have said "todas as almas," rather than "alminhas." But that is not what Our Lady said to Lucia.

    Knowing now where "the Church" was headed, it makes perfect sense that certain "reporters" would have falsified Sister Lucia's words to fit with their long-term plan for a more Ecuмenical Church. Purgatory is one of those doctrines that the Protestants will not accept.
    Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven.  Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there?  This request, as you are suggesting, would then be against Church teaching.


    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #41 on: September 07, 2023, 05:07:33 PM »
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  • Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven.  Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there?

    Eventually, all souls in Purgatory go to Heaven, some sooner, some later, according to how much purification each soul requires. The reason we pray for those souls (in general, not necessarily with regard to what the Fatima prayers really are or aren't) is to ask to shorten their time in Purgatory, especially for the poor souls who have no one to pray for them.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #42 on: September 07, 2023, 05:10:39 PM »
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  • But that's not an argument why Trads need to make the "O My Jesus" prayer mention Purgatory specifically.
    A) Trads have ZERO issue maintaining a practical, lively faith in Purgatory
    B) Protestants reject the entire Rosary, not just the O My Jesus prayer. So inserting "Purgatory" into the O My Jesus prayer won't help anyone one iota.

    Who said Trads need to change their prayers? Dr. Chojnowski and others simply want to make sure people know the truth about the Fatima Prayer. Each person can choose to act upon that knowledge however they wish. 

    A) Our Lady specifically requested it. In my opinion, I would be presumptuous to think I can edit her.

    B) The deception is not directed at Protestants. It is directed at "Catholics" who, in the eyes of the NuChurch, need to start thinking less like Catholics and more like Protestants. A good way to start that is to remove explicitly-Catholic references to Purgatory in the prayers that the average Catholic says every day. Lex orandi, lex credendi.



    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #43 on: September 07, 2023, 05:11:26 PM »
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  • Eventually, they'll go to Heaven, some sooner, some later, according to how much purification each soul requires. The reason we pray is to ask to shorten their time in Purgatory, especially for the poor souls who have no one to pray for them.
    But the "Oh My Jesus" prayer states to lead souls to Heaven.  Not to lead souls sooner or to cut short their time in Purgatory. 

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Catholics got O My Jesus prayer wrong for past 105 years?
    « Reply #44 on: September 07, 2023, 05:13:25 PM »
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  • Except Church teaching is that ALL souls in purgatory do in fact go to Heaven.  Why would Our Lady ask us to pray for those souls to be led to Heaven if they are already heading there?  This request, as you are suggesting, would then be against Church teaching.

    Because they are "abandoned" in Purgatory. No one thinks to pray for them. They will stay in Purgatory longer without our prayers.

    Against Church teaching? To pray for the souls in Purgatory? Which Church are you talking about?