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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 56422 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #240 on: July 13, 2023, 09:41:54 AM »
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    they believed that Scripture was silent on the topic
    Scripture isn't silent on the topic, it just didn't "teach it" in all it's scientific details.  There a many, many passages where Scripture uses imagery and words which (as the encyclical said) would "explain" important details about the cosmos/earth. 


    You're basically preaching the idea of "separation of Church and Science" which is just as wrong and heretical as "separation of Church and State".

    ...I'm still waiting for you to correct/accept that St Augustine confirmed that God (literally) spoke: "Let there be light".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #241 on: July 13, 2023, 09:43:25 AM »
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  • That is a legitimate point but you can't seriously be agreeing with Tradman's claim that "Augustine tells us that scripture describes a flat earth."  You have read enough of St. Augustine to realize that this is not true.  You must have recognized that those quotes were taken out of context. 


    I'd probably have to look up the context, but I don't recall St. Augustine really speaking directly about the earth being flat, though there are places where it's implied.  That's why there's a lot of debate, with some claiming St. Augustine was a proponent of the globe, others that he was a proponent of flat earth.  It's the same thing with Sacred Scripture, where there's no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat, just some passages that may imply it.


    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #242 on: July 13, 2023, 09:44:12 AM »
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  • The literal sense of Scripture (as opposed to allegorical, etc.) is the meaning that God intends for us to understand about what is actually occurring or described.  This does not mean that God intends for us to take figures of speech or parables as literal descrptions.  The Church guides us in understanding the meaning that God intends for Scripture.  Only sola Scriptura heretics take everything in Scripture literally.  (And yet they somehow miss that "This is my Body" is literal.)

    We can best understand St. Augustine's view how it is used in magisterial teaching, here in Providentissimus Deus:

    To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

    I have bolded the Augustine quote. (And Ladislaus, please stop the nonsense claiming that quoting this encyclical somehow puts me on a "trajectory to modernism" merely because modernists have misinterpretted it according to their agenda.  What haven't they misinterpretted? This is their basic mode of operation.) 

    So here we have clear magisterial teaching that the intent of God in Scripture, therefore its literal sense, is NOT to describe the physical nature of the visible universe.  When it speaks of such things it is using figurative language.  To claim that Scipture teaches the earth is flat is to go against Church teaching on how to understand Scripture.

    Excellent! This is a great quote, although the encyclical has been used by both conservatives and liberals to make various cases.  Nevertheless, Leo was generous in telling us


    Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

    Leo reminds us the sacred writers weren't seeking to penetrate the secrets of nature, however, that certainly doesn't mean the earth is inscrutable, or Scripture was false or wrote the opposite of what it meant. Rather, the writers went by what sensibly appeared, and in a way men could understand and were accustomed to, as Leo tells us.

    This is why the Fathers of the Church wrote exegeses from Scripture comparing the earth to the tabernacle, with a domed ceiling like a tent, pillars, walls, and a division between the holy of holies and the outer part where men gathered.  The model for the tabernacle (as well as church architecture) is all of creation, with heaven and earth divided by the firmament, separating the holy place of heaven from the men on earth, where God is worshipped, yet apart from where he resides.  This is why the Fathers described the earth as a two story house.  Simple enough language that cannot be reconciled with earth being a ball.

    If this is unfamiliar to you, it's only because it has been hidden from you by the enemy, or forgotten, or both, which is the way the enemies of God operate throughout the centuries. God's enemies literally buried the true cross which remained lost for centuries.  This kind of thing happens, but we ought not be resistant to what Scripture says, especially when the Fathers expound on it. We should happily abandon the pagan indoctrination we suffered, being so contrary to Scripture and the Fathers.. 

    Your interpretation of what Leo says suggests creation ought to remain obscure or inscrutable, both philosophically and physically.  Or maybe that only scientists have the answers.  I'm not denying such things aren't incredibly deep and spiritual, just that God intends for us to contemplate things so He can reveal more to us. God tells us to knock, seek and ask.  I haven't seen globe promoters attempt to consider the mysteries presented, let alone to find alignment with the Fathers, Scripture and reason.  Instead, some prefer to obscure understanding telling everyone not to bother, there's nothing to see, leave it to the scientists. Even when you catch them lying, I guess. Let's be honest, they tell some whoppers: When Scripture says the earth never moves, the lying enemy says it moves 4 different directions at high speeds.  When Scripture says the sun moves, they say the earth does.  When Scripture says stars are lights, they say stars are worlds, even with alien beings. When Scripture describes water above the firmament, they say it's empty space. :facepalm:
     

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #243 on: July 13, 2023, 10:19:47 AM »
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  •  It's the same thing with Sacred Scripture, where there's no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat, just some passages that may imply it.
    Thank you so much for explicitly saying this.  I have noticed that you typically support your belief in flat earth with arguments from science.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #244 on: July 13, 2023, 10:26:31 AM »
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  • :jester:  How much have you read about Galileo?

    Lots.  Everyone who disagreed with Galilio about heliocentrism believed that the earth is a globe.  The dominant view was the Ptolemaic model, while some accepted that of Tycho Brahe.

    ...I'm still waiting for you to correct/accept that St Augustine confirmed that God (literally) spoke: "Let there be light".

    Don't hold your breath.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #245 on: July 13, 2023, 10:34:29 AM »
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  •  So, when you say scripture doesn't describe a flat earth, have you read scripture?

    I have read the entire Bible several times.  I have also studied certain sections in depth.  For example, I took a course (to meet a Hebrew requirement) that involved translating and exegeting various passages from Genesis from the original Hebrew, including the first three chapters which describe Creation.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #246 on: July 13, 2023, 10:38:56 AM »
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  • Your interpretation of what Leo says suggests creation ought to remain obscure or inscrutable, both philosophically and physically.  Or maybe that only scientists have the answers.  I'm not denying such things aren't incredibly deep and spiritual, just that God intends for us to contemplate things so He can reveal more to us. God tells us to knock, seek and ask.  I haven't seen globe promoters attempt to consider the mysteries presented, let alone to find alignment with the Fathers, Scripture and reason.  Instead, some prefer to obscure understanding telling everyone not to bother, there's nothing to see, leave it to the scientists. Even when you catch them lying, I guess. Let's be honest, they tell some whoppers: When Scripture says the earth never moves, the lying enemy says it moves 4 different directions at high speeds.  When Scripture says the sun moves, they say the earth does.  When Scripture says stars are lights, they say stars are worlds, even with alien beings. When Scripture describes water above the firmament, they say it's empty space. :facepalm:
     


    Well said. Your entire post explains the subject very well, but the above shows the problem, IMO, with the globe-earthers wanting to keep science separate from religion, as if God isn't the author and creator of everything in the natural world.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #247 on: July 13, 2023, 10:59:26 AM »
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  • the above shows the problem, IMO, with the globe-earthers wanting to keep science separate from religion, as if God isn't the author and creator of everything in the natural world.

    Science and religion are obviously not separate and I see no reason to think that globe-earthers think that they are.  It is certainly not my position.  Religion places limits on what we can believe from science.  

    For example, we must reject any theory which claims that the universe or humanity came about as a series of random, unintended events.  Such a view directly contradicts what we know from Scripture, that God created everything with deliberate intent.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #248 on: July 13, 2023, 11:13:20 AM »
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    Jaynek:  In the Middle Ages, educated Catholics ... believed that Scripture was silent on the topic and that it was a matter for science.

    Ladislaus:  It's the same thing with Sacred Scripture, where there's no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat, just some passages that may imply it.

    Jaynek:  Thank you so much for explicitly saying this.  I have noticed that you typically support your belief in flat earth with arguments from science.
    Jaynek, i'm sorry to tell you that Ladislaus was not agreeing with your point.  You said "Scripture is silent", while Ladislaus said there may be implications for flat-earth.

    Another example of your poor reading comprehension.  You may be sincere in your search for truth, but I can't trust your analysis because you don't even understand when someone is disagreeing with you.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #249 on: July 13, 2023, 11:26:52 AM »
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  • Jaynek, i'm sorry to tell you that Ladislaus was not agreeing with your point.  You said "Scripture is silent", while Ladislaus said there may be implications for flat-earth.

    I am not the one who said Scripture is silent on these matters.  St. Augustine said it and then later Pope Leo.  I merely accept their teaching.  Ladislaus also appears to accept it when he says there is "no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat".  To say that something may be implied is not at all the same as a claim that it is clearly taught.

    Offline Tradman

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #250 on: July 13, 2023, 11:36:10 AM »
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  • Well said. Your entire post explains the subject very well, but the above shows the problem, IMO, with the globe-earthers wanting to keep science separate from religion, as if God isn't the author and creator of everything in the natural world.

    I think you're right. They alienate the physical from the spiritual, then water down the spiritual (all religions are equal) then accentuate the physical, to arrive at pure humanism and eventually, devil worship. As secretly as possible of course.  Eliminating creation's spiritual connection to God creates another, different, alternate, 'genesis' of a Godless world. Reminds me that God told us Satan was a liar from the beginning. I'll never see Genesis the same way again.    
     


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #251 on: July 13, 2023, 12:10:01 PM »
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    I am not the one who said Scripture is silent on these matters.  St. Augustine said it and then later Pope Leo.
    They never said this.

    Quote
    Ladislaus also appears to accept it when he says there is "no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat". 
    If you finish his sentence, he said it is possibly implied.


    Quote
    To say that something may be implied is not at all the same as a claim that it is clearly taught.
    To say that something is implied is also not being silent on the matter.

    Everyone agrees Scripture doesn't "teach" on this topic.  But it does "explain" (as Pope Leo tells us) and it also implies many things.

    Some of the greatest dogmas of the Faith are only implied in Scripture.  Tradition fills in the gaps.
    a.  Scripture tells us that Our Lady was "full of grace".  Apostolic Tradition tells us that this means she was born without sin and Her life was sinless.
    b.  Scripture implies many things about science and the world.  Adam/Noah Old Testament Tradition held the earth to be flat until the occult/pagan greeks pushed the anti-Old Testament "science" that the earth was a globe, floating in space, revolving around the Sun (which they worshiped). 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #252 on: July 13, 2023, 12:57:05 PM »
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  • To say that something is implied is also not being silent on the matter.

    The word "imply" means to suggest something without actually explicitly saying it, in other words suggesting while being silent.  For someone to say that something may be implied is to acknowledge that there is silence on the matter.

    Some of the greatest dogmas of the Faith are only implied in Scripture.  Tradition fills in the gaps.

    But there is no Tradition that the earth is flat or that Scripture teaches it to be so. Catholics throughout history, including Doctors of the Church, believed, as a matter of science, that the earth is a globe.  A globe in the sense that was taught by Aristotle and Ptolemy, not a flat earth surrounded by a globe-shaped firmament.  And these Catholics could only accept this scientific model because they believed that it was not in conflict with Scripture.  

    How could St. Thomas have taught that Aristotle's understanding that the earth is a globe is correct, if there was an existing Catholic tradition that Scripture taught it to be flat?   And it was not just St. Thomas, but every educated Catholic, at least from time of St. Bede on, who believed that they were free to accept the view of pagan science on this.

    Flat earth is in no way comparable to the "greatest dogmas of the Faith" although admittedly some flat earthers seem to treat it as if it were.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #253 on: July 13, 2023, 01:11:01 PM »
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    The word "imply" means to suggest something without actually explicitly saying it, in other words suggesting while being silent. 

    You're using this phrase incorrectly.  You're incorrectly using a phrase typically applied to a person and applying it to a book.  A book, by its very nature, is silent...because everything is written.  When you read, there is no noise.

    The phrase "being silent" means there is nothing communicated.  It means the person/book didn't communicate anything, either explicit or implicit.

    Scripture is always silent because it's a book.  Scripture does imply many things, without explicitly spelling things out. 

    To say that "scripture is silent" implies it did not discuss the topic at all.  This is a false characterization.  Scripture implies many things regarding science in general (as well as history, i.e. the earth is less than 10,000 yrs old) and the shape of the earth/land.  This is not "silence".


    Quote
    For someone to say that something may be implied is to acknowledge that there is silence on the matter.
    Uhhh....no.  "Silence on a matter" means that the matter was not discussed or mentioned at all.  If something was implied, that means the topic was mentioned.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
    « Reply #254 on: July 13, 2023, 01:24:04 PM »
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    But there is no Tradition that the earth is flat or that Scripture teaches it to be so. Catholics throughout history, including Doctors of the Church, believed, as a matter of science, that the earth is a globe. 

    There's not been a consensus either way.


    Quote
    A globe in the sense that was taught by Aristotle and Ptolemy, not a flat earth surrounded by a globe-shaped firmament.
    It's a debated topic.



    Quote
    And these Catholics could only accept this scientific model because they believed that it was not in conflict with Scripture.

    The Church allows both theories.  Until She teaches clearly, you can't say flat-earth is any more wrong than globe earth.


    Quote
    How could St. Thomas have taught that Aristotle's understanding that the earth is a globe is correct, if there was an existing Catholic tradition that Scripture taught it to be flat?   And it was not just St. Thomas, but every educated Catholic, at least from time of St. Bede on, who believed that they were free to accept the view of pagan science on this.
    St Thomas was *slightly* wrong on the Immaculate Conception (which in the 1200s was not yet defined), but this doctrine was no less implied.  Many others were *majorly* wrong about the Immaculate Conception, which caused the Church to investigate and determine that the Immaculate Conception WAS implied in Scripture and also explicitly taught in Apostolic Tradition.  Thus, now, it is an explicit doctrine; formerly it was only implicit.