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Author Topic: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis  (Read 78346 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #240 on: July 13, 2023, 09:41:54 AM »

Quote
they believed that Scripture was silent on the topic
Scripture isn't silent on the topic, it just didn't "teach it" in all it's scientific details.  There a many, many passages where Scripture uses imagery and words which (as the encyclical said) would "explain" important details about the cosmos/earth. 


You're basically preaching the idea of "separation of Church and Science" which is just as wrong and heretical as "separation of Church and State".

...I'm still waiting for you to correct/accept that St Augustine confirmed that God (literally) spoke: "Let there be light".

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #241 on: July 13, 2023, 09:43:25 AM »

That is a legitimate point but you can't seriously be agreeing with Tradman's claim that "Augustine tells us that scripture describes a flat earth."  You have read enough of St. Augustine to realize that this is not true.  You must have recognized that those quotes were taken out of context. 


I'd probably have to look up the context, but I don't recall St. Augustine really speaking directly about the earth being flat, though there are places where it's implied.  That's why there's a lot of debate, with some claiming St. Augustine was a proponent of the globe, others that he was a proponent of flat earth.  It's the same thing with Sacred Scripture, where there's no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat, just some passages that may imply it.


Offline Tradman

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Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #242 on: July 13, 2023, 09:44:12 AM »
The literal sense of Scripture (as opposed to allegorical, etc.) is the meaning that God intends for us to understand about what is actually occurring or described.  This does not mean that God intends for us to take figures of speech or parables as literal descrptions.  The Church guides us in understanding the meaning that God intends for Scripture.  Only sola Scriptura heretics take everything in Scripture literally.  (And yet they somehow miss that "This is my Body" is literal.)

We can best understand St. Augustine's view how it is used in magisterial teaching, here in Providentissimus Deus:

To understand how just is the rule here formulated we must remember, first, that the sacred writers, or to speak more accurately, the Holy Ghost "Who spoke by them, did not intend to teach men these things (that is to say, the essential nature of the things of the visible universe), things in no way profitable unto salvation."(53) Hence they did not seek to penetrate the secrets of nature, but rather described and dealt with things in more or less figurative language, or in terms which were commonly used at the time, and which in many instances are in daily use at this day, even by the most eminent men of science. Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

I have bolded the Augustine quote. (And Ladislaus, please stop the nonsense claiming that quoting this encyclical somehow puts me on a "trajectory to modernism" merely because modernists have misinterpretted it according to their agenda.  What haven't they misinterpretted? This is their basic mode of operation.) 

So here we have clear magisterial teaching that the intent of God in Scripture, therefore its literal sense, is NOT to describe the physical nature of the visible universe.  When it speaks of such things it is using figurative language.  To claim that Scipture teaches the earth is flat is to go against Church teaching on how to understand Scripture.

Excellent! This is a great quote, although the encyclical has been used by both conservatives and liberals to make various cases.  Nevertheless, Leo was generous in telling us


Ordinary speech primarily and properly describes what comes under the senses; and somewhat in the same way the sacred writers-as the Angelic Doctor also reminds us - `went by what sensibly appeared,"(54) or put down what God, speaking to men, signified, in the way men could understand and were accustomed to.

Leo reminds us the sacred writers weren't seeking to penetrate the secrets of nature, however, that certainly doesn't mean the earth is inscrutable, or Scripture was false or wrote the opposite of what it meant. Rather, the writers went by what sensibly appeared, and in a way men could understand and were accustomed to, as Leo tells us.

This is why the Fathers of the Church wrote exegeses from Scripture comparing the earth to the tabernacle, with a domed ceiling like a tent, pillars, walls, and a division between the holy of holies and the outer part where men gathered.  The model for the tabernacle (as well as church architecture) is all of creation, with heaven and earth divided by the firmament, separating the holy place of heaven from the men on earth, where God is worshipped, yet apart from where he resides.  This is why the Fathers described the earth as a two story house.  Simple enough language that cannot be reconciled with earth being a ball.

If this is unfamiliar to you, it's only because it has been hidden from you by the enemy, or forgotten, or both, which is the way the enemies of God operate throughout the centuries. God's enemies literally buried the true cross which remained lost for centuries.  This kind of thing happens, but we ought not be resistant to what Scripture says, especially when the Fathers expound on it. We should happily abandon the pagan indoctrination we suffered, being so contrary to Scripture and the Fathers.. 

Your interpretation of what Leo says suggests creation ought to remain obscure or inscrutable, both philosophically and physically.  Or maybe that only scientists have the answers.  I'm not denying such things aren't incredibly deep and spiritual, just that God intends for us to contemplate things so He can reveal more to us. God tells us to knock, seek and ask.  I haven't seen globe promoters attempt to consider the mysteries presented, let alone to find alignment with the Fathers, Scripture and reason.  Instead, some prefer to obscure understanding telling everyone not to bother, there's nothing to see, leave it to the scientists. Even when you catch them lying, I guess. Let's be honest, they tell some whoppers: When Scripture says the earth never moves, the lying enemy says it moves 4 different directions at high speeds.  When Scripture says the sun moves, they say the earth does.  When Scripture says stars are lights, they say stars are worlds, even with alien beings. When Scripture describes water above the firmament, they say it's empty space. :facepalm:
 

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #243 on: July 13, 2023, 10:19:47 AM »
 It's the same thing with Sacred Scripture, where there's no unequivocal statement about the earth being flat, just some passages that may imply it.
Thank you so much for explicitly saying this.  I have noticed that you typically support your belief in flat earth with arguments from science.

Re: New Geocentrism Book by Robert Sungenis
« Reply #244 on: July 13, 2023, 10:26:31 AM »
:jester:  How much have you read about Galileo?

Lots.  Everyone who disagreed with Galilio about heliocentrism believed that the earth is a globe.  The dominant view was the Ptolemaic model, while some accepted that of Tycho Brahe.

...I'm still waiting for you to correct/accept that St Augustine confirmed that God (literally) spoke: "Let there be light".

Don't hold your breath.