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Author Topic: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?  (Read 6016 times)

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Online cassini

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Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
« on: June 30, 2023, 07:59:53 AM »
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  • Has this subject ever been discussed in Catholic theology? Has any saint ever given a reason for this kind of punishment in Hell? There are no simple happenings in God's works, so there must be a reason why He chose fire as the punishment in Hell rather than anything else.

    Having studied the history of Pagan heliocentrism that took over Biblical and created geocentrism in both faith and reason in the past 400 years, resulting in the emergence of modern paganism, atheism and Modernism in the Catholic Church that has empties the churches, I am wondering is there a connection with the fire of Pagans and the Fire of Hell.

    Copernicus's, Galileo's and Newton's heliocentrism originated from the pagan belief of the Earth and planets orbiting a central fire (the sun). Defined as a revelation of Scripture this fire based heresy was adopted into Catholic exegesis in 1820 that led to the elimination of the supernatural Creation by God being replaced with a natural evolution of creation by way of a Big Bang.

    Reading a book on paganism that dominated the world after Noah's Flood, I came across this paragraph.

    Sun worship was a prominent feature of the Hermetic philosophy.. The divine institution of sacrifice for sin by fire must be regarded as the foundation of the supposed spiritual efficacy of fire to purify the soul, the material type being substituted for the spiritual meaning. The supposed spiritual efficacy of fire to purify the soul, the material type being substituted for the spiritual meaning. The supposed spiritual efficacy of fire was recognised throughout paganism.  Continual fires were kept burning before all the altars of the Sun god, and in the case of the Incas of Peru, were kindled anew every year from the rays of the sun by means of a concave mirror of polished metal. In the rites of Zoroaster it was stated that "He who approached to the fire would receive a light from divinity" and again that "Through fire all the stains produced by generation would be purged away." "Fire," says Ovid, "purifies both shepherds and sheep." So also in the sacred books of the Hindus fire is thus addressed, “Thou thus expiate a sin against the Gods, thou dost expiate a sin against the manes (departed spirits), thou dost expiate a sin against my own soul, thou dost expiate repeated sin, thou dost expiate every sin which I have committed wilfully or unintentionally,”

        The supposed spiritual efficacy of fire and the apparent connection between Fire and the Sun as the source of the world’s heat would furnish the argument for sun worship. For if Fire, as an emanation from the Sun, was divine, then the sun was the source of all that is divine, and therefore God Himself, the source of spiritual life and regeneration. The Sun is also used in Scripture as the material type of God, and the general recognition of the type was no doubt made use of to give authority to the belief that the type was the reality. Now, when the Sun had come to be the manifestation of God, the dead king, as the promised seed of the woman and the incarnation of God, would of course, be identified with the Sun, and the two forms of idolatry would be combined.’---THE WORSHIP OF THE DEAD or THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF PAGAN IDOLATRY by Colonel J. Garnier. London books, 1904.

    If God chose the fire of Hell in response to pagan fire of history, that might explain the question.  

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #1 on: June 30, 2023, 08:03:11 AM »
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  • Fire is the most painful thing there is. Also, God wanted people who chose creatures over Him to be punished by a creature.

    What else do you think God could have used to torment the damned? Put them in a big hydraulic press and crush them for all eternity? Stab them over and over again forever? Or what?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #2 on: June 30, 2023, 09:26:33 AM »
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  • Has this subject ever been discussed in Catholic theology? Has any saint ever given a reason for this kind of punishment in Hell? There are no simple happenings in God's works, so there must be a reason why He chose fire as the punishment in Hell rather than anything else.

    Having studied the history of Pagan heliocentrism that took over Biblical and created geocentrism in both faith and reason in the past 400 years, resulting in the emergence of modern paganism, atheism and Modernism in the Catholic Church that has empties the churches, I am wondering is there a connection with the fire of Pagans and the Fire of Hell.

    Copernicus's, Galileo's and Newton's heliocentrism originated from the pagan belief of the Earth and planets orbiting a central fire (the sun). Defined as a revelation of Scripture this fire based heresy was adopted into Catholic exegesis in 1820 that led to the elimination of the supernatural Creation by God being replaced with a natural evolution of creation by way of a Big Bang.

    Reading a book on paganism that dominated the world after Noah's Flood, I came across this paragraph.

    Sun worship was a prominent feature of the Hermetic philosophy.. The divine institution of sacrifice for sin by fire must be regarded as the foundation of the supposed spiritual efficacy of fire to purify the soul, the material type being substituted for the spiritual meaning. The supposed spiritual efficacy of fire to purify the soul, the material type being substituted for the spiritual meaning. The supposed spiritual efficacy of fire was recognised throughout paganism.  Continual fires were kept burning before all the altars of the Sun god, and in the case of the Incas of Peru, were kindled anew every year from the rays of the sun by means of a concave mirror of polished metal. In the rites of Zoroaster it was stated that "He who approached to the fire would receive a light from divinity" and again that "Through fire all the stains produced by generation would be purged away." "Fire," says Ovid, "purifies both shepherds and sheep." So also in the sacred books of the Hindus fire is thus addressed, “Thou thus expiate a sin against the Gods, thou dost expiate a sin against the manes (departed spirits), thou dost expiate a sin against my own soul, thou dost expiate repeated sin, thou dost expiate every sin which I have committed wilfully or unintentionally,”

        The supposed spiritual efficacy of fire and the apparent connection between Fire and the Sun as the source of the world’s heat would furnish the argument for sun worship. For if Fire, as an emanation from the Sun, was divine, then the sun was the source of all that is divine, and therefore God Himself, the source of spiritual life and regeneration. The Sun is also used in Scripture as the material type of God, and the general recognition of the type was no doubt made use of to give authority to the belief that the type was the reality. Now, when the Sun had come to be the manifestation of God, the dead king, as the promised seed of the woman and the incarnation of God, would of course, be identified with the Sun, and the two forms of idolatry would be combined.’---THE WORSHIP OF THE DEAD or THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF PAGAN IDOLATRY by Colonel J. Garnier. London books, 1904.

    If God chose the fire of Hell in response to pagan fire of history, that might explain the question. 
    Fire as a 'thing' is really strange when you think about it... I mean it's fire.

    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #3 on: June 30, 2023, 10:51:19 AM »
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  • Interesting question. Reminded me of this absurd theory that says that the origin of consciousness in hominids* were the hypnotic effects of staring at fire for extended periods of time. See Fire (unmpress.com).

    From a spiritual point of view, that theory is tantamount to paganism. One could compare it to some sort of "god of fire" being the creator of the human soul. It is not a stretch to think that the true God would punish pagans with what they worship as the creator of their souls.

    *hominids did not exist because evolution is a hoax.
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).

    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #4 on: June 30, 2023, 11:07:19 AM »
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  • As per the question itself, I don't know about Church fathers that had addressed it, but I think the answer should be along the lines of fire being able to consume things (turn them into dust) and also being perpetually in motion (in contrast with the peaceful tranquility of Heaven).

    Some acid, for instance, would be able to consume things but, being a liquid it would be at rest once it has consumed them. One of the features of hell is the perpetuity of torment. 
    ¡Viva Jesús!

    Please, disregard any opinions and references that I have posted that may seem favorable to any traditionalist group, especially those that pertinaciously deny EENS (CMRI, Sanborn, Dolan and associates, for example).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #5 on: June 30, 2023, 11:12:05 AM »
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  • What else do you think God could have used to torment the damned? Put them in a big hydraulic press and crush them for all eternity? Stab them over and over again forever? Or what?

    I have a problem with portraying God as a "tormentor".  What happens to people in eternity is caused directly by their own free will and their choices, and the suffering in Hell results ontologically from the privation of that capacity given to souls to love God and to be filled with God.  As to how this translates into fire, only God knows.

    Offline St Giles

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #6 on: June 30, 2023, 11:16:53 AM »
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  • I have a problem with portraying God as a "tormentor".  What happens to people in eternity is caused directly by their own free will and their choices, and the suffering in Hell results ontologically from the privation of that capacity given to souls to love God and to be filled with God.  As to how this translates into fire, only God knows.
    It sure sounds like fire: to be continually tormented by knowing the loss of an infinite good that could have been so easily attained if a person hadn't willed against the necessary means. When it comes to eternity, just an instant of realizing that would be like intense fire.
    "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."
    "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven..."
    "Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #7 on: June 30, 2023, 03:18:59 PM »
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  • It sure sounds like fire: to be continually tormented by knowing the loss of an infinite good that could have been so easily attained if a person hadn't willed against the necessary means. When it comes to eternity, just an instant of realizing that would be like intense fire.

    Right.  I just don't like portraying God almost as if he were some sadist who likes tormenting people ... or that word in particular.  If some human being enjoyed tormenting people, we'd consider him some kind of deviant, and probably evil.  So I think we need to be careful about how we describe God's role in the punishment of souls in Hell.  At the end of the day, whatever happens to them, they do to themselves.


    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #8 on: June 30, 2023, 03:21:42 PM »
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  • I believe that it has something to do with there being fire in Heaven. 

    This is just pious speculation: I think there is fire in Heaven - a purely spiritual and Divine Fire that burns but does not consume either body or soul, like the burning bush in the desert. It is a fire of ardent love. If we get to Heaven, there we shall burn with love for all eternity. 

    And I further speculate that the effects of this spiritual fire pour into the glorified body, lighting it up. Whereas in hell, it is a material fire that reaches even unto the soul. 

    Again speculating, hell is a black, material fire, both hot and cold. It is an inverse of the fire of Heaven.

    Purgatory is a fire juxtaposed between Heaven and hell. It has qualities of both places - wherefore I would conjecture that it is both a material fire and a spiritual fire. 

    Fire, of one kind or another, awaits every single man. 

    We are, then, permitted to choose how we shall burn. 


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #9 on: June 30, 2023, 03:41:41 PM »
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  • There is certainly actual, real fire in hell. This is from the book on The Four Last Things (this passage should also help answer the OP's question):


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #10 on: June 30, 2023, 03:47:37 PM »
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  • Right.  I just don't like portraying God almost as if he were some sadist who likes tormenting people ... or that word in particular.  If some human being enjoyed tormenting people, we'd consider him some kind of deviant, and probably evil.  So I think we need to be careful about how we describe God's role in the punishment of souls in Hell.  At the end of the day, whatever happens to them, they do to themselves.
    .

    I'm not sure this is all that accurate. We can't hold God to human standards, and absolutely God has every right to punish evil and is bound by His justice to do so. St. Thomas explains it simply by saying:


    Quote
    Reply to Objection 2. Although God rejoices not in punishments as such, He rejoices in them as being ordered by His justice.



    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #11 on: June 30, 2023, 04:05:54 PM »
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  • I believe that it has something to do with there being fire in Heaven.

    This is just pious speculation: I think there is fire in Heaven - a purely spiritual and Divine Fire that burns but does not consume either body or soul, like the burning bush in the desert. It is a fire of ardent love. If we get to Heaven, there we shall burn with love for all eternity.

    And I further speculate that the effects of this spiritual fire pour into the glorified body, lighting it up. Whereas in hell, it is a material fire that reaches even unto the soul.

    Again speculating, hell is a black, material fire, both hot and cold. It is an inverse of the fire of Heaven.

    Purgatory is a fire juxtaposed between Heaven and hell. It has qualities of both places - wherefore I would conjecture that it is both a material fire and a spiritual fire.

    Fire, of one kind or another, awaits every single man.

    We are, then, permitted to choose how we shall burn.
    Ran out of thumbs up for you, Simeon!!

    God is Fire!

    Deut 4:24, The Lord your God is a consuming fire"); 9:3, The Lord your God will Himself go before you, a devouring and consuming fire; Heb 12:29, Our God is a consuming fire.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/4125246#:~:text='Deut%204%3A24%2C%20%22,%22%20(%22Our%20God%20is%20a

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    +RIP 2024

    Offline Durango77

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #12 on: June 30, 2023, 04:41:05 PM »
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  • I can't remember the source, maybe a sermon.  But at some point i heard it said that putting people in hell was actually somewhat of a mercy, as putting a corrupted eternal soul in God's presence in heaven would be even worse than hellfire.

    Online cassini

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #13 on: July 01, 2023, 03:43:29 AM »
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  • So, anyone think that burning heretics at the stake was also connected to the above opinions?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why did God chose FIRE in Hell as the ultimate punishment?
    « Reply #14 on: July 01, 2023, 07:40:21 AM »
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  • .

    I'm not sure this is all that accurate. We can't hold God to human standards, and absolutely God has every right to punish evil and is bound by His justice to do so. St. Thomas explains it simply by saying:

    Justice is not the same thing as characterizing God as a "tormentor".  God rejoices in justice, not in the suffering of His creatures.  Those are two separate things.