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Author Topic: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani  (Read 3745 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2019, 02:41:05 PM »
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  • Posted the following in The Remnant’s “comments” section, but doubt it will see the light of day (and even if they were inclined to publish it, they would get a call from the District within a couple hours to delete it).

    Therefore, posting it here:


    “Can someone explain to me how the joint declaration’s statement that “the one sole purpose” for Bishop Huonder’s retirement to the sspx school is to dedicate himself to prayer, silence, say the TLM, and work for the restoration of Tradition is compatible with the Diocese of Chur’s Kathnet announcement of a couple months ago, acknowledging that the bishop has been given this assignment by Francis to be a liaison between the SSPX and Rome?

    Moreover, am I to believe the same bishop recently pictured celebrating the new Mass with altar girls, and giving communion in the hand, has suddenly changed his spots, and conveniently became a traditionalist on the day of his retirement?

    And of what does Bishop Huonder’s newfound “traditionalism” consist, beyond saying the old Mass?  Does he suddenly reject his own former ecuмenism?  Does he reject the errors of Vatican II?  What are his thoughts on the new questionable sacraments (eg., vegetable oil for extreme unction)?  Etc., etc.

    Just a few days after tossing cold water on the initiative of theologians who were seeking to continue the deposition process of Francis (initially begun by Cardinal Burke, and continued by the Correctio Fillialis), the SSPX now sends a disturbing message to its faithful:

    We are on the same side as the modernists.

    The SSPX, which once served as a bastion of truth, today tells a blatant falsehood through its superior general, regarding the purpose of Bishop Huonder’s arrival (contradicted by the bishop himself).

    There is only one way this joint declaration is compatible with truth (at least subjectively):

    The SSPX today believes that working for a practical accord with unconverted Rome = “working for Tradition.”

    The previous generation of SSPXers were indoctrinated by Archbishop Lefebvre after the consecrations to hold such a position as the gravest danger to the faithful (see his 1991 Fideliter interview).

    Conversely, the last 20 years of SSPX leadership have striven mightily (and successfully) to inculcate exactly the opposite principle: Legal recognition is the primary goal.

    Very few have possessed the perspicacity of mind to detect this reorientation of the SSPX, and those who have have become maligned more than baby murdering devil worshippers.

    Will The Remnant possess the journalistic integrity to allow this perspective to aire?  It will gain my respect if it does.”

    Great job. I hope they pay attention to what's been written, and keep the comment posted.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #16 on: May 21, 2019, 07:30:44 AM »
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  • OP: "Bishop Huonder is retiring to a house of the Society of Saint Pius X ... to dedicate himself to prayer and silence, to celebrate the traditional Mass exclusively ...The Society of Saint Pius X appreciates Bishop Huonder’s courageous decision and rejoices to be able to provide him with the spiritual and priestly surroundings that he desires so deeply. May this example be followed by others, so as to “restore everything in Christ”.May 20, 2019.

    Good for His Excellency Bishop Huonder. And a great accomplishment by Rev. Father Pagliarani to have obtained that dedication from the Bishop, by the Grace of God. Why is it a bad thing again for a Bishop to begin offering the True Mass exclusively? It is at least a good first step that can lead to even better in time.

    His Excellency Bishop Fellay said some time ago "I rejoice whenever aTLM is celebrated" and that is what a true Shepherd of souls with love for the Church and concern for Her good would say.

    If this were something allegedly easy to do, or could be done without the Grace of God, why hasn't the Resistance been able to convince any Conciliar Bishops to begin offering the TLM exclusively?

    Clearly, not an easy thing to do that. It is the Work of Grace imho, slowly attracting a retired Bishop toward Tradition. Grace can continue to work in Bishop Huonder's soul as H.E. offers the TLM every day. Let's see what Bp. H. thinks of girl altar boys and the other silliness in 5 or 10 years from now.

    I read recently that there was one Bishop in the Philippines several years ago who was among the very few Bishops in the world who admitted it was wrong to say the Novus Ordo Missae. That Bishop was buried on SSPX grounds in the end.

    The need of the hour is for more of the Bishops to do the right thing and support Tradition in their own dioceses. Every one doing so would likely benefit at least tens if not hundreds of thousands of souls. The SSPX will continue to work toward that goal.

    Normalization is a completely separate matter. If the Pope is ready to make Auxiliary Bishops into Ordinary Bishops having habitual jurisdiction - which only the Pope can do - the SSPX is ready to say yes, and is right in doing so. Anyone who insists on disagreeing with this really insists that Traditional Catholic Bishops must always remain inferior in Episcopal Authority to Conciliar Bishops, since auxiliaries are inferior to ordinaries in power. The SSPX approach toward restoring Tradition in the wider Church is much more feasible and plausible than any comparable Resistance approach, and is based on sound Catholic principles.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #17 on: May 21, 2019, 08:13:45 AM »
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  • I want too join in union of prayer with Bishop Huonder and pray that the situation will develop in which there will be no need for a resistance.
    Poche,
    We've known for a long time that you're in "union" with Bp. Huonder and his conciLIAR fratres.  :facepalm:
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #18 on: May 21, 2019, 08:27:56 AM »
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  • Ok Remnant:

    My respect for your journalistic integrity rises.

    I did not think you would post it.

    More than happy to have been wrong.



    I think not. Michael Matt just headlined it that way to make trads think he's still a trad.

    He sold-out his journalistic integrity when he started providing cover for the SSPX.
    Since 2012, he's editorially endorsed the SSPX and hasn't reported anything about the SSPX/Resistance split.  

    Now, he's even endorsing Francis's fake conservative "good cop" Bp. Schnieder.



    The Remnant selectively reports the truth and therefore acts as an agent of liars, misleading trad Catholics to assist the modernists revolution.

    If we could only see the changes in Michael Matt's bank account since 2012... he could not wound not explain it.

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline X

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #19 on: May 21, 2019, 08:50:38 AM »
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  • I think not. Michael Matt just headlined it that way to make trads think he's still a trad.

    He sold-out his journalistic integrity when he started providing cover for the SSPX.
    Since 2012, he's editorially endorsed the SSPX and hasn't reported anything about the SSPX/Resistance split.  

    Now, he's even endorsing Francis's fake conservative "good cop" Bp. Schnieder.



    The Remnant selectively reports the truth and therefore acts as an agent of liars, misleading trad Catholics to assist the modernists revolution.

    If we could only see the changes in Michael Matt's bank account since 2012... he could not wound not explain it.
    Agreed.  I should have said “in this particular instance...”


    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #20 on: May 21, 2019, 09:05:49 AM »
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  • Does he actually believe in the traditional Catholic faith? If he does, then he needs to get conditionally consecrated in the Old Rite.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline homeschoolmom

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #21 on: May 21, 2019, 10:04:30 AM »
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  • "I rejoice whenever aTLM is celebrated"

    This is not foolproof. All modernists celebrated the TLM exclusively up through the 60's. 

    Rejoice, rather, when a modernist denounces his modernism. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #22 on: May 21, 2019, 11:05:00 AM »
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  • The SSPX joint announcement simply reeks with arrogance. 

    It assumes traditional Catholics are completely naive to their cause.

    "The Society of Saint Pius X appreciates Bishop Huonder’s courageous decision and rejoices to be able to provide him with the spiritual and priestly surroundings that he desires so deeply. May this example be followed by others, so as to “restore everything in Christ”.May 20, 2019."

    Fr. Pagliarani fails to even explain Bp. Huonder's reasons for becoming a traditional Catholic?

    Oh let me guess... it was a miracle?   

    He looked up from his Novus ordo mass card and there was St. Joan of Arc looking at him in a demanding way... saying:

    "You Huonder, schismatic apostle under the Destroyer pope, will become a traditional Catholic!"


                         The Holy, Militant Maid of Orleans
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #23 on: May 21, 2019, 01:58:02 PM »
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  • Quote
    "I rejoice whenever aTLM is celebrated"
    Xavier, to follow-up on what HomeSchoolMom said, your understanding of theology and how the liturgy pleases God is childish.  You really need to pray for guidance on this.  Just because a TLM is said doesn't mean it's automatically good and God is honored.  A catholic is forbidden by canon law from attending a mass from a known heretic/modernist, therefore many TLMs would be wrong to attend because the priest is in the state of public sin (this also applies to probable heretics, because canon law also forbids catholics from attending masses/sacraments based on "probabilities".)  We have the highest duty, both legally and morally, to offer God our best, which means to attend masses which are certainly valid, legal and moral.  Anything less, unless in an emergency, is to offer God the sin of Cain, the 2nd best of our selves and the liturgy.
    .
    Further, being that many TLMs are said in the same churchs and by the same priests who say the novus ordo abomination, then those TLMs are tainted by sacrilige and blasphemy, since those churches as desecrated by sins against the First Commandment, which highly offend God, above all other sins.
    .
    In the case of +Huonder, until he publically denounces his previous errors, his previous silence on V2, his previous sacrilegious performance of the novus ordo (with his allowance of the blasphemous 'communion in the hand', girl servers, lay eucharistic ministers, etc, etc, etc), then he is to be avoided as a probable heretic and a practical apostate.  Anyone who associates with him is guilty of this scandal to the Faith.  The new-sspx has an obligation to the entire catholic world to properly legitimize this "bishop" (if he's a bishop at all...he should be conditionally ordained/consecrated) and to help him make resitution for his enabling the V2 errors, by him issuing a public condemnation of all things Modernism, a public taking of the "oath against modernism" and a public "Credo" of all things orthodox and Traditional.  Much like Bishop Castro Meyer denounced his former errors, and spend the rest of this life supporting Traditionalism, so +Huonder has the duty, as a Bishop of the Church, to make up for his past and to spread/preach the Faith for the little time he has left on earth.

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #24 on: May 21, 2019, 10:21:07 PM »
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  • Xavier, to follow-up on what HomeSchoolMom said, your understanding of theology and how the liturgy pleases God is childish.  You really need to pray for guidance on this.  Just because a TLM is said doesn't mean it's automatically good and God is honored.  A catholic is forbidden by canon law from attending a mass from a known heretic/modernist, therefore many TLMs would be wrong to attend because the priest is in the state of public sin (this also applies to probable heretics, because canon law also forbids catholics from attending masses/sacraments based on "probabilities".)  We have the highest duty, both legally and morally, to offer God our best, which means to attend masses which are certainly valid, legal and moral.  Anything less, unless in an emergency, is to offer God the sin of Cain, the 2nd best of our selves and the liturgy.
    .
    Further, being that many TLMs are said in the same churchs and by the same priests who say the novus ordo abomination, then those TLMs are tainted by sacrilige and blasphemy, since those churches as desecrated by sins against the First Commandment, which highly offend God, above all other sins.
    .
    In the case of +Huonder, until he publically denounces his previous errors, his previous silence on V2, his previous sacrilegious performance of the novus ordo (with his allowance of the blasphemous 'communion in the hand', girl servers, lay eucharistic ministers, etc, etc, etc), then he is to be avoided as a probable heretic and a practical apostate.  Anyone who associates with him is guilty of this scandal to the Faith.  The new-sspx has an obligation to the entire catholic world to properly legitimize this "bishop" (if he's a bishop at all...he should be conditionally ordained/consecrated) and to help him make resitution for his enabling the V2 errors, by him issuing a public condemnation of all things Modernism, a public taking of the "oath against modernism" and a public "Credo" of all things orthodox and Traditional.  Much like Bishop Castro Meyer denounced his former errors, and spend the rest of this life supporting Traditionalism, so +Huonder has the duty, as a Bishop of the Church, to make up for his past and to spread/preach the Faith for the little time he has left on earth.

    Well stated Pax Vobis.
    Just one question.   When you say -
    We have the highest duty, both legally and morally, to offer God our best, which means to attend masses which are certainly valid, legal and moral.  Anything less, unless in an emergency, is to offer God the sin of Cain, the 2nd best of our selves and the liturgy.

    Even in an emergency would it not still be the sin of Cain?

    ..

    "In His wisdom," says St. Gregory, "almighty God preferred rather to bring good out of evil than never allow evil to occur."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #25 on: May 21, 2019, 10:33:35 PM »
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  • There could be certain circuмstances to use indult priests, for confession, for example (in an emergency).  And regarding the indult TLM, it would be wrong for those “in the know”. But, subjectively, for those that are coming from the novus ordo to it, they are moving in the right direction.  The indult is not inherently wrong, as one could argue for the novus ordo.  The sin of Cain was the sin of intent, where he did not offer to God his best.  Some that go to the indult are slowly learning about Traditionalism, so they have a temporary excuse.  This doesn’t apply to Trads.  


    Offline poche

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #26 on: May 21, 2019, 11:23:32 PM »
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  • This is not foolproof. All modernists celebrated the TLM exclusively up through the 60's.

    Rejoice, rather, when a modernist denounces his modernism.
    I too rejoice when I see modernism denounced.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #27 on: May 21, 2019, 11:34:42 PM »
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  • Where are the felicitous headlines in all the SSPX journals around the world "Conciliar Bishop converts to Tradition"? Where are all the conferences and writings of Bishop Huonder, who decided on this step years ago (a long time to delay one's conversion!) describing his journey to Tradition and how the scales fell from his eyes, how he became aware of the revolution in the Church that triumphed at Vatican II? Where is his rejection of the New Mass, Ecuмenism, Religious Liberty, Collegiality and all the Conciliar errors he has been promoting all his life? Of course, they are non-existent. Because he has not converted to Tradition. This is in no way similar to the conversion of Bishop Lazo to Tradition in the Philippines, Xavier Sem. This is simply a modernist bishop (with a ?) being placed in the very heart of Tradition, something we now know was agreed upon years ago by the SSPX and Rome to facilitate the merging of the SSPX with the Church of Vatican II.

    Great posting X, well said again.

    Xavier Sem, our fight is not just for the Traditional Mass. It is first and foremost for the Faith. As others have pointed out, there are many heretics and schismatics who have a traditional Mass and sacraments. You don't bring them into your house and have them smile sweetly at your children as if they are one with you. What a grave scandal to bring an unconverted modernist bishop like this into a Catholic school where our children will be exposed to him, and where he will be held up to them as an authority figure, someone to look up to and obey. What a scandal to give the appearance to the world that this modernist bishop is now 'one of us', part of our family. Sadly, that is now the reality for the SSPX. They are fast becoming one of his family.

    Furthermore, in Bishop Huonder, we have a doubtful bishop and doubtful priest, having been ordained and consecrated in the new rites by modernists. But this won't worry Menzingen. They wouldn't want to upset Pope Francis by any suggestion that he may need to be conditionally reordained and consecrated. Let us hope at least that this huge leap in the direction of 'regularization' will help the scales fall from the eyes of some of the Traditional priests and faithful, including Xavier Sem who has many good qualities and for whom we should all pray. He may make a very good Resistance priest if only we can help him to see how our beloved Society has been subverted.




    Offline X

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #28 on: May 22, 2019, 07:10:28 AM »
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  • It also seems to have gone unnoticed that the joint declaration does not speak of “restoring” the Church, but of “renewing” it.

    This is conciliar language.

    In conservative environs, they like to use this term, as it does not imply a rejection of the underlying justification of Vatican II (ie., renewal; evolution; revolution; change; progress), while “restoration” implies turning back the clock and rejection.

    Hence, I detect a hint in the use of this term regarding the SSPX’s new mindset:

    There is no longer even the pretense of converting Rome to Tradition (a BS claim used by all the capitulating once-traditional communities used to shield them from scorn), but a contentedness to assume a place in the new pluralist church.

    The SSPX will not restore.

    It wants to renew.

    You have it from the superior general’s mouth.

    They adopt the same posture towards the crisis (which they want you to believe “recedes”) as EWTN’s Franciscans of the Renewal; the same attitude as Cardinal Hoyos’s admonition to Bishop Fellay that “you are not against the new Mass, but for the old Mass;” which all amounts to the acceptance of Fr. Cottier’s strategy against Campos: What matters most is that there no longer be rejection in their hearts.

    Declaring a desire to renew, but not restore, implies that psychological process has been successful.

    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Joint communiqué of Bishop Huonder and Father Pagliarani
    « Reply #29 on: May 22, 2019, 08:46:05 AM »
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  • It also seems to have gone unnoticed that the joint declaration does not speak of “restoring” the Church, but of “renewing” it.

    This is conciliar language.

    In conservative environs, they like to use this term, as it does not imply a rejection of the underlying justification of Vatican II (ie., renewal; evolution; revolution; change; progress), while “restoration” implies turning back the clock and rejection.

    Hence, I detect a hint in the use of this term regarding the SSPX’s new mindset:

    There is no longer even the pretense of converting Rome to Tradition (a BS claim used by all the capitulating once-traditional communities used to shield them from scorn), but a contentedness to assume a place in the new pluralist church.

    The SSPX will not restore.

    It wants to renew.

    You have it from the superior general’s mouth.

    They adopt the same posture towards the crisis (which they want you to believe “recedes”) as EWTN’s Franciscans of the Renewal; the same attitude as Cardinal Hoyos’s admonition to Bishop Fellay that “you are not against the new Mass, but for the old Mass;” which all amounts to the acceptance of Fr. Cottier’s strategy against Campos: What matters most is that there no longer be rejection in their hearts.

    Declaring a desire to renew, but not restore, implies that psychological process has been successful.
    I confess when reading this (even though we have been hearing about renewal for many a decade) , when it comes to the neo-SSPX and its Operation ѕυιcιdє. the Carousel scene from the 1976 scifi movie Logan's Run is what comes to mind.

    Basic premise: people who reach a certain age must take their chance at being renewed. What actually happens is a spectacle of public execution.

    Thus: the neoSSPX by falling into the conciLIAR lie of renewal, in the end will only end up destroying anything left of Tradition within their collective corpus.

    As you watch the video below, look at the people who are about to renew. These are the deluded neoSSPXers. Replete are metaphors of ascending and renewal by fire, as indicated by the apparel. When they reach the top, they get vapourized.
    Those who do not wish to "renew" try to make a run for sanctuary and are taken down by Sandmen (guys in black).

    Thus:Resistance to the neoSSPX is more than frowned upon, to put it mildly.
    Take greater heed of those who wish to destroy the soul!!!

    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster