Author Topic: LET US PRAY THE NEW SSPX ROSARY CRUSADE (Read 7999 times)

John Grace · « **Reply #30 on:** January 08, 2014, 06:23:52 AM »

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Firstly, healing the Society is neither my goal nor is it possible. The Society has been changed and it will not be returned to its former integrity without a wholesale bloodletting and removal of all of the newer priests who have been formed into the mode of modern thinking. The Father Themanns will never become the Father Girouards. That will never happen, and it is the Father Themanns who are the future of the SSPX.

The reality regarding the SSPX.

John Grace · « **Reply #31 on:** January 08, 2014, 06:27:24 AM »

Quote from: trento

Quote from: John Grace
By his own admission, Fr Loschi was kept in the dark by Bishop Fellay. He hadn't a clue. He has wised up and I do commend him for having the courage to challenge "himself" in Dublin. Fr Loschi was very brave to go to Bishop Fellay and resign.

What on earth are you talking about? Fr. Loschi is still with the SSPX and is now the Prior of the of Singapore Priory, headquarters of the District of Asia.

I never stated Fr Loschi had left the SSPX. It is self evident he hasn't as a CD is being used as an SSPX fundraiser.

My reference is to his resignation whilst in Ireland. Fr Loschi went to Bishop Fellay. Fr Loschi resigned as prior, Fr Angles 'stood down' and Fr Morgan assumed responsibility.

John Grace · « **Reply #32 on:** January 08, 2014, 07:07:24 AM »

Quote from: Wessex

If folk are no longer associating with the SSPX, why should they respond to its antics? The continuing liberal drift of the Society makes a nonsense of genuine rosary and Fatima initiatives and I suspect Menzingen uses them to distract the laity and to support any outcome in its questionable deliberations. Fuzzy intentions are an insult and a confusion of the mind and belong to the new church the Society is bent on joining. With news of its support for indult and EC bodies, its squeeze on the French district and use of external agencies and funding to project a different image, one wonders what Menzingen's real intentions are. I criticised the first crusade all those years ago; this one I know to be a fraud.

An excellent post. :applause: The SSPX has become a nonsense. Many others criticised and opposed these earlier distraction rosary crusades. Those who did were not taken seriously and were ridiculed.

What a mockery of Our Lady to use the rosary in their deceit? NewChurch comes in for valid criticism but here we have the Church of Fellay, the 'pious union' of Archbishop Lefebvre using the rosary as a weapon to distract and beguile. Incredible.

A participant on the forum made the point of SSPX laity not seeming to mind being 'taken for a ride'. It's very strange.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #33 on:** January 08, 2014, 11:10:39 AM »

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TheRecusant has a page all about this in Latest News, and it ends like this:

http://www.therecusant.com/apps/blog/show/40394286-boycott-the-rosary-crusade-

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For all the above reasons it is clear that any Catholic who wishes to do the Will of God, to please Heaven or to Honour the Blessed Virgin Mary can have no part in this initiative whatsoever. The SSPX has been cursed with disunity and blindness. Its priests do not agree with one another and find themselves having to be careful about what they say to whom, a thing unthinkable until fairly recently. This latest Rosary Crusade is a grave insult to Almighty God and to His Blessed Mother. It will call down from Heaven not a blessing but a curse, it will not delay or soften the chastisement but will hasten it, and although Bishop Fellay as the originator bears the most responsibility, it is incuмbent upon each of us not to participate in such a serious insult to God. Furthermore, it is the clear Catholic duty of each of us to warn as many others a possible. In the meantime, pray for the survival of Tradition through the work of the Resistance and for the frustration of Bishop Fellay's plans and those of his confederates.

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us!

Can anyone say for sure if this is what +W is recommending?
Is this what the various Resistance priests are recommending?

When Our Lady came at La Salette and said that bishops will oppose bishops, etc., did she EVER say that therefore we should not join with certain others in their Rosary prayers, because we don't like their intentions?

Has there ever been any Church teaching that says you commit some kind of sin by having your OWN intentions different from those of others with whom you pray?

Let me ask a frank question:

When St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort spoke of those who DISCORAGE others from the prayer of the Rosary, what did he have to say?

Did he EVER say that discouraging others from praying the Rosary can be a holy work?

Did he EVER say that there are certain times when telling others not to pray the Rosary is a good idea or something that could be pleasing to God?

Did St. Louis EVER say that when a group of people are getting together to pray the Rosary that it's possible, due to their intentions alone, that those who 'know better' are ill-advised to participate?

Quote from: True Faith

For the people participating in this crusade but changing the intentions:

Are you still filling out the sheets to hand in at the end? Are you going to write on them that you changed the intentions?

I don't see any problem with putting a note on the sheet that you are, for example, using the intention of the South America district, which is, #2. For the return of (modernist) Rome to the Tradition of the Church.

You can even include a personal intention for the conversion of +Fellay from Modernist to the Tradition of the Church.

In fact, you could send your sheets to the South America District for them to include in their tallies, if you like. Send a scan by e-mail, for free.

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John Grace · « **Reply #34 on:** January 08, 2014, 11:42:59 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

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TheRecusant has a page all about this in Latest News, and it ends like this:

http://www.therecusant.com/apps/blog/show/40394286-boycott-the-rosary-crusade-
Quote

For all the above reasons it is clear that any Catholic who wishes to do the Will of God, to please Heaven or to Honour the Blessed Virgin Mary can have no part in this initiative whatsoever. The SSPX has been cursed with disunity and blindness. Its priests do not agree with one another and find themselves having to be careful about what they say to whom, a thing unthinkable until fairly recently. This latest Rosary Crusade is a grave insult to Almighty God and to His Blessed Mother. It will call down from Heaven not a blessing but a curse, it will not delay or soften the chastisement but will hasten it, and although Bishop Fellay as the originator bears the most responsibility, it is incuмbent upon each of us not to participate in such a serious insult to God. Furthermore, it is the clear Catholic duty of each of us to warn as many others a possible. In the meantime, pray for the survival of Tradition through the work of the Resistance and for the frustration of Bishop Fellay's plans and those of his confederates.

Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, pray for us!

Can anyone say for sure if this is what +W is recommending?
Is this what the various Resistance priests are recommending?

When Our Lady came at La Salette and said that bishops will oppose bishops, etc., did she EVER say that therefore we should not join with certain others in their Rosary prayers, because we don't like their intentions?

Has there ever been any Church teaching that says you commit some kind of sin by having your OWN intentions different from those of others with whom you pray?

Let me ask a frank question:

When St. Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort spoke of those who DISCORAGE others from the prayer of the Rosary, what did he have to say?

Did he EVER say that discouraging others from praying the Rosary can be a holy work?

Did he EVER say that there are certain times when telling others not to pray the Rosary is a good idea or something that could be pleasing to God?

Did St. Louis EVER say that when a group of people are getting together to pray the Rosary that it's possible, due to their intentions alone, that those who 'know better' are ill-advised to participate?

Quote from: True Faith
For the people participating in this crusade but changing the intentions:

Are you still filling out the sheets to hand in at the end? Are you going to write on them that you changed the intentions?

I don't see any problem with putting a note on the sheet that you are, for example, using the intention of the South America district, which is, #2. For the return of (modernist) Rome to the Tradition of the Church.

You can even include a personal intention for the conversion of +Fellay from Modernist to the Tradition of the Church.

In fact, you could send your sheets to the South America District for them to include in their tallies, if you like. Send a scan by e-mail, for free.

.

All this is good. Many seem to have misunderstood the points made in the Recusant piece. Nobody objects to the rosary. It would be foolish to ignore the message of La Salette.

JPaul · « **Reply #35 on:** January 08, 2014, 02:29:51 PM »

This thread clearly demonstrates the cultish thinking which has been internalized by patrons of the SSPX proper and its resistance spinoff.

On the one hand if we don't want to pray the Rosary with the SSPX then we are discouraging other Catholics from praying and on the other hand we have the resistance telling us what Heaven is going to be up to if folks do pray with the Society. And each side enlisting the Saints and the prophets to their cause. It is silliness, this whole business.

Matthew · « **Reply #36 on:** January 08, 2014, 04:39:32 PM »

In the same breath I discourage participation in Bp. Fellay's Rosary Crusade, I strongly encourage traditional Catholics to pray the daily Rosary, for the same or similar intentions.

Re-read the thread -- in one of my early posts I suggested praying for the same intentions, plus a couple other intentions, including "for the faithful priests and bishop who are being persecuted" or something to that effect.

I just don't think we should appear to "fall for" Bishop Fellay's latest distraction. It's bread & circuses for pious trads. It's a political maneuver calculated to make the SSPX look like it's still fighting for Tradition.

Most on here agree we shouldn't throw money in the collection plate for Menzingen. But we should throw Rosaries in? What, do we value our money more than our Rosaries? Are we just withholding financial support because deep down we're stingy?

I'm not saying we shouldn't say those Rosaries, or that we shouldn't pray for Bishop Fellay and the SSPX. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't give them *rosaries to count* as feathers for their cap, that's all.

I'm advocating that we not turn in any Rosaries for their count. Say just as many as you normally would during such a crusade. Send them to Bishop Williamson instead, or Fr. Pfeiffer. Then he can submit them to Bishop Fellay. How's that for a good statement of principle?

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #37 on:** January 08, 2014, 06:29:48 PM »

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It seems to me, that you and I are on the same page, but reading it with a difference of emphasis..............

Quote from: Matthew

In the same breath I discourage participation in Bp. Fellay's Rosary Crusade, I strongly encourage traditional Catholics to pray the daily Rosary, for the same or similar intentions. ---[Good!]

Re-read the thread -- in one of my early posts I suggested praying for the same intentions, plus a couple other intentions, including "for the faithful priests and bishop who are being persecuted" or something to that effect. ---[I wish it could be in one post instead of spread over the whole 40 posts previous.]

I just don't think we should appear to "fall for" Bishop Fellay's latest distraction. It's bread & circuses for pious trads. It's a political maneuver calculated to make the SSPX look like it's still fighting for Tradition. ---[Agreed.]

Most on here agree we shouldn't throw money in the collection plate for Menzingen. But we should throw Rosaries in? What, do we value our money more than our Rosaries? Are we just withholding financial support because deep down we're stingy?

As for the collection plates, I recommend putting a pithy note of explanation in there, saying what your grievance is, and the reason you can't support the Menzingen-denizens, or Menzingenitis, or any false pretense of continuity with what we have received from ABL, IN HIS NAME, no less.

So how's this any different? When you turn in your Rosary tally, just write on the sheet what's your reason, and that way, THEY WILL KNOW. The more participants do this, the more the message will be delivered to Menzingen. The fewer participants do this, the weaker the message becomes.

What is Menzingen going to think if 20,000 Rosary tally sheets have a message of protest written on them, that they are willing to participate in the graces of a united prayer to Our Lady and Our Lord in hopes of it effecting the Collegial Consecration of Russia and the conversion of both Russia AND Newrome to Tradition, but it's 20,000 Rosary sheets that DO NOT buy into +Fellay's penchant to subvert the Society according to his Modernist schemes?

Don't think it's going to be 20,000?? --- Well, you could be right about that, especially when the Recusant, CathInfo and all manner of Resistance members are going around recommending that nobody does this! What if it's only 10,000 sheets, or 5,000, or 1,000 --- you don't think that will make any impression?

If we're praying the Rosaries anyway, all this amounts to is getting our point across, and who knows, maybe a few extra graces from God because we were brave enough to DO something instead of just grumble and whine and moan about it.

But I think it's more than that. I think there are people out here who are MORE LIKELY to pray their daily Rosaries if they have an incentive like this, because of the FACT that when multiple people pray their Rosary together, everyone gets more graces. By being part of this Society crusade, we might be doing our part to convert +Fellay back to the true Faith of Catholics!

And don't think that can't happen...... WE MUST THINK THAT CAN HAPPEN!

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I'm not saying we shouldn't say those Rosaries, or that we shouldn't pray for Bishop Fellay and the SSPX. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't give them *rosaries to count* as feathers for their cap, that's all.

I'm advocating that we not turn in any Rosaries for their count. Say just as many as you normally would during such a crusade. Send them to Bishop Williamson instead, or Fr. Pfeiffer. Then he can submit them to Bishop Fellay. How's that for a good statement of principle?

Now we're singing the same tune. Perfect. I agree 100%. Turn your Rosary tallies in to Bishop Williamson or Fr. Pfeiffer or Fr. Girouard or Fr. Chazal, or Fr. Hewko, or Fr. Cardozo, or Fr. Iglesias, or Dom Tomas de Aquino, whichever Resistance priest you prefer. I like it! I can get really excited about that.

Thank you!!

[/font]

It's probably best for each of us to send them in to a priest of our preference in the Resistance, and we should let them know in advance that we are planning on doing this. I think they won't mind. In fact, I expect that they will find it spiritually enriching. Imagine them all getting together at some point, sharing with each other how many of the Faithful are asking them to do this! What an opportunity! This is a spontaneous eruption of Catholic action. They didn't ask for it, but I think they're going to appreciate it. They might have some kind of message as to how they would like to handle this. Maybe someone can set up a website, for example, with software that automatically tallies numbers and uses a registration system, like CI does, or any of the various sites with username and password. TheRecusant has one, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel has one, etc.

.

JPaul · « **Reply #38 on:** January 10, 2014, 08:17:41 AM »

IMHO,
I don't think that engaging in herd activities in this partisan atmosphere is really worthwhile and it ends up being a symbolic public display with sheets, and tallies, and announcements.
And if you do it with altered intentions and send them to different priests, then you are basically intending to disrupt the SSPX "crusade", so why join it in the first place?
I would suggest saying your Rosaries more devoutly and submitting them to Our Lady and stop entertaining the idea of using what should be a solemn and pious action to make political statements to worldly unworthies.

There is only one tally which matters, and it is not found in Menzingen.
The Lord knows exactly who and how many are joined in prayer with the same intentions and dispenses grace accordingly.
He needs no sign-up sheets and judges prayers according to sincerity not numbers.

Quote

"And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the ѕуηαgσgυєs and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee."

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #39 on:** January 10, 2014, 12:22:05 PM »

Quote from: J.Paul

IMHO,

I don't think that engaging in herd activities in this partisan atmosphere is really worthwhile and it ends up being a symbolic public display with sheets, and tallies, and announcements.

And if you do it with altered intentions and send them to different priests, then you are basically intending to disrupt the SSPX "crusade", so why join it in the first place?

I would suggest saying your Rosaries more devoutly and submitting them to Our Lady and stop entertaining the idea of using what should be a solemn and pious action to make political statements to worldly unworthies.

There is only one tally which matters, and it is not found in Menzingen.
The Lord knows exactly who and how many are joined in prayer with the same intentions and dispenses grace accordingly.

He needs no sign-up sheets and judges prayers according to sincerity not numbers.

Quote
"And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the ѕуηαgσgυєs and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.

"But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee."

I don't disagree on principle, J.Paul.

It's just that some people get busy and take action when it's part of a group activity, whereas when they're alone, they tend to run out of steam. Being part of a group effort increases zeal and regular practice. And when a lot of people are joined together in their prayer of the Rosary, great things can happen.

We have precedents for this.

During WWII in Austria, the communists were in positions of power and were on the verge of making Austria into another Communist country. But about 10% of the population got together and prayed the Rosary, in public and in private, and the communists walked away.

The same thing happened in Brazil. Catholics filled the streets, praying the Rosary in public (some stayed home and prayed in private), and the communists just abandoned their posts, without any explanation.

Don't forget the miracle of Lepanto, which is not dissimilar -- the thing that all these have in common is a public AWARENESS that the Rosary is being prayed by many people, thousands of people. That is what the SSPX Rosary crusade accomplishes: public awareness that thousands of people are involved.

If we all hide in our rooms and pray in secret, maybe we can expect that God will 'repay' us, but is God going to work any public miracle when the public at large have no way of knowing that the Rosary was being prayed by thousands all over the world?

While this rosary crusade of the SSPX isn't exactly like that, for no one is apparently meeting in chapels or walking down public streets in groups praying the Rosary (although that could be set up and done!) nonetheless, these tally sheets are the means by which some idea of how many people have been involved can be imagined or in fact known by people at large.

Nor do I see the numbers as any expectation of "payment" from God. Certainly, +F is prone to use it as such, unfortunately. He has been known to refer to the numbers of Rosaries reported as a kind of 'currency' that he's using for bargaining power. It's as though he just can't control his urge to spend, spend, spend.

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Neil Obstat · « **Reply #40 on:** January 10, 2014, 06:03:40 PM »

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Reviewing these posts, it seems I missed a nuance here............

Quote from: J.Paul

This thread clearly demonstrates the cultish thinking which has been internalized by patrons of the SSPX proper and its resistance spinoff.

On the one hand if we don't want to pray the Rosary with the SSPX then we are discouraging other Catholics from praying and on the other hand we have the resistance telling us what Heaven is going to be up to if folks do pray with the Society. And each side enlisting the Saints and the prophets to their cause.

It is silliness, this whole business.

Praying the Rosary is NEVER "silliness."

We have a very limited time to pray the Rosary in this life, and when our time is over, it's OVER, and then we have to be content in eternity with the measly few minutes that we used well in this short life.

If you want to call the cult of Our Lady "cultish" then go ahead. She won't mind.

The Faith of Catholics is a cult. Is that a problem? It's the one cult outside of which there is no salvation.

If one does not want to pray the Rosary with the SSPX, that is one's own choice, but I'm having a hard time seeing any real virtue in it. It is rather a sign of weakness. And to say that anyone who does NOT join is thereby avoiding any discouragement toward others from praying the Rosary is FALSE. And I can prove it.

I know several people who are much more encouraged to pray the Rosary while joining with the SSPX in this crusade, and are absolutely DISCOURAGED when they hear of opposition to the crusade on whatever principle, including but not limited to what the SG Fellay has been up to lately. That's not happening to me, but I'd be a fool to ignore the fact that I can see it happening to others around me.

I can't control how others react. I can explain to them what I see going on, but by and large, all too many rank-and-file Catholics of the TLM stripe today are UNWILLING to recognize the auto-demolition going on inside the SSPX before our very eyes.

As +W has explained so many times, it should come as no surprise, because the same thing happened at Vat.II, when the progressivists wormed their way into the Vatican dicastries (placed there by John XXIII), and now, other progressivists have wormed their way into the capitularies' positions in the Society (placed there by XSPXHEBF).

Our Lady said the day would come when all we have left is our Rosary and our Scapular. For some, that day has already arrived. Is this the time to set aside the Rosary and not earn the EXTRA GRACES WE WOULD RECEIVE by joining with the Society in this crusade?

Is this the time to SCANDALIZE the 'invincibly ignorant' and/or simple-minded pew-sitters who don't want to think anything untoward is taking place in the SSPX?

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JPaul · « **Reply #41 on:** January 10, 2014, 07:36:02 PM »

You have again given my words a wrong interpretation which was never intended.

I will not argue against the cultish or we can say, conditioned mentality which compels some to feel the need to be involved in the SSPX crusade simply because it has been called by its leaders.

The SSPX is no longer the defender or bastion of Tradition that it was perceived to be in the past. In fact it may never have been.
Regardless, it surrendered even the pretense of this in the last few years.

The use of the Rosary as a public relations club against Rome in the beginning and later as a means of fooling the faithful never sat well with me, and at this point it is being manipulated again to fool trusting souls yet again.

It is too much, and too hypocritical to join with yesterday's betrayers of Tradition to pray with them for its restoration today, and while in the midst of the squabbles among the factions of the SSPX and the fog of confusion which they create for souls.

I see no reason for the knowing or the unknowing to be further involved in these partisan debates and activities further fueling their disillusionment and sullying the purity of their prayers, hopes, and intentions.

One day a faction is dragging at the faithful to avoid the SSPX, "but you must come away from them", and come another day their supporters are saying, "oh but you must pray in their rosary crusade". It is perhaps another example of the contradictory thinking which is ingrained in the Society and its adherents.

Maybe it is finally time to get serious and pray the rosary to heaven and avoid those who would vacuum up their prayers and store them in their own treasure houses for their own ends.

Centroamerica · « **Reply #42 on:** January 11, 2014, 11:31:45 AM »

The most comical observance of this new Rosary crusade, apart from the clear error of intention # 2, is that didn't Bergoglio say something about people counting Rosaries and offering them to him. He made a mockery of them and them called them Pelagians. Let's see how this one sits with him. Is it Bishop Fellay's way of gettimg even? By calling another one.

John Grace · « **Reply #43 on:** January 13, 2014, 03:43:37 PM »

The best advice is to pray the 15 mysteries.

JPaul · « **Reply #44 on:** January 13, 2014, 09:05:13 PM »

Quote from: John Grace

The best advice is to pray the 15 mysteries.

Indeed, pray the rosary to Our Lady whose intentions are always pure and true.