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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 13325 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 09:51:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2020, 09:37:59 AM
    And here's another blunder of dogmatism, understanding the Conciliar Church simpliciter as a heretical sect and likening belonging to it as the same thing as being, say, a Greek Orthodox.  Unlike the formally schismatic churches which have been condemned as such, the Conciliar Church still pretends to be the Catholic Church.  Adhereing to it due to seeing it as such is in fact a MATERIAL error at best.

    The "parallel church" is even worse than the "Orthodox". In addition to schism and heresy, they usurp all remaining seats of the true Church.

    Quote from: St Robert Bellarmine
    when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple


    Quote from: St Paul, Galatians 1
    [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.
    [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 09:58:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on June 11, 2020, 09:16:04 AM
    The "Second Vatican Council theorized"? I'd say, the robber council abolished the First Commandment:

    The robber council mocks and accuses God and his Church: God, his First Commandment, and his Church have ridden roughshod over "the very dignity of the human person". The robber council denies dogma, infallibly declared by a Pope, using words which in an examplary way express infallibilty as defined by the Vatican Council.

    Yes. He says it "theorized." It did more than that. That's risible. But I respect the man and his progress, and believe he will eventually come to terms with the fact that a papally approved ecuмenical council of the Church expressed heresy in one of its official, published docuмents. We need someone in his position, someone with power in the current regime, to do this, and then the living Magisterium of the Church.

    Good grief, it is time for the Church to officially nail down what it's "indefectibility" consists of, and to affirm and clarify the limitations of V1 regarding infallibilty, because is appears to me, and others, that:

    The V2 council in DH declared religious liberty was part of Revelation, contrary to an opposite which Pius IX said was also part of Revelation -

    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/list-of-oldest-living-catholic-bishops-and-cardinals/msg701408/#msg701408

    Or perhaps they could simply confirm the usurpation of the Conciliar and post-Conciliar heretics.

    Houston? Vigano?
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #17 on: June 11, 2020, 11:18:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 09:58:24 AM
    Yes. He says it "theorized." It did more than that. That's risible.

    I think that we need to stop jumping to conclusions.  His word choice here may have been so as not to dignify Religious Liberty as Catholic "teaching".  I read it in context as implying that it's a novelty that contradicition Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.
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    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #18 on: June 11, 2020, 11:26:51 AM »
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    • While DH is grave error, it is not heresy.

    Secondly, it is not possible for an Ecuмenical Council of the Catholic Church which has papal approbation to teach grave error to the Church, but that's a separate discussion.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #19 on: June 11, 2020, 11:29:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2020, 11:18:47 AM
    I think that we need to stop jumping to conclusions.  His word choice here may have been so as not to dignify Religious Liberty as Catholic "teaching".  I read it in context as implying that it's a novelty that contradicition Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium.
    The statements of an ecuмenical council are not a "teaching"? They were. Then either it was Catholic, or it wasn't. 

    If it wasn't, then, again, we have the issue of an ecuмenical council approved by a pope issuing non-Catholic teaching. 

    I think Vigano is honest, exhibiting a true conversion, and he'll get there. But let's not back off and not note inconsistencies like V2 "theorized" religious liberty in DH. That's merely a more potable draft of the poison that Vigano is rightly condemning, and we'll trying to come clean here, real clean, right?  
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #20 on: June 11, 2020, 11:36:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 11:29:44 AM
    If it wasn't, then, again, we have the issue of an ecuмenical council approved by a pope issuing non-Catholic teaching.

    You're begging the question that it was approved by a Pope.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #21 on: June 11, 2020, 11:39:53 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2020, 11:26:51 AM
    While DH is grave error, it is not heresy.
    I gave a link to the Daly article in this thread. I agree with him, and disagree with you. 

    Quote
    Secondly, it is not possible for an Ecuмenical Council of the Catholic Church which has papal approbation to teach grave error to the Church, but that's a separate discussion.
    Yet if I'm right, it did. 

    I believe that's a prophesied anomaly to what is otherwise a truth which you express - an (if not the) abomination of desolation. 

    I'll leave it to you to try to explain otherwise how an ecuмenical council of the Catholic Church taught grave error, apparently if it requires a reading that betrays the language of the texts at issue in my opinion. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #22 on: June 11, 2020, 11:41:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
    Yet if I'm right, it did.

    Well, yeah, but whether you're right is what's under discussion.  "I'm right if I'm right" is a tautology.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #23 on: June 11, 2020, 11:42:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
    I gave a link to the Daly article in this thread. I agree with him, and disagree with you.
    Yet if I'm right, it did.

    I believe that's a prophesied anomaly to what is otherwise a truth which you express - an (if not the) abomination of desolation.

    I'll leave it to you to try to explain otherwise how an ecuмenical council of the Catholic Church taught grave error, apparently if it requires a reading that betrays the language of the texts at issue in my opinion.
    Well, you see, this is the sedevacantist position in a nutshell.  An ecuмenical council in union with a true pope can't teach grave error.  Ergo....
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #24 on: June 11, 2020, 11:50:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on June 11, 2020, 11:42:43 AM
    Well, you see, this is the sedevacantist position in a nutshell.  An ecuмenical council in union with a true pope can't teach grave error.  Ergo....
    I know that. 

    Then you have to explain how what happened happened - something appearing to be an ecuмenical council approving something that's heresy under a man that appears to be pope.

    I see that "appearance" - never before, and never again - as a prophesied anomaly, a one shot eclipse of the Church of Christ. 

    I don't think it gets us very far, in understanding what this is all about, in simply saying, he wasn't a true pope, and let's go on from there to . . . 

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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 11:51:14 AM »
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    • I’m not sure why the hand-wringing over Viganò’s use of the word “theorized” in conjunction with Dignitatis Humani (as though he intended, by the use of that word, to somehow “go soft” on that docuмent, when he unambiguously declares that docuмent contrary to Scripture, Tradition, and the magisterium).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 11:55:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on June 11, 2020, 11:50:34 AM
    I know that.

    Then you have to explain how what happened happened - something appearing to be an ecuмenical council approving something that's heresy under a man that appears to be pope.

    I see that "appearance" - never before, and never again - as a prophesied anomaly, a one shot eclipse of the Church of Christ.

    I don't think it gets us very far, in understanding what this is all about, in simply saying, he wasn't a true pope, and let's go on from there to . . .
    Does it solve the problem?  No.  But it correctly diagnoses it.
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    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 12:10:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2020, 11:41:32 AM
    Well, yeah, but whether you're right is what's under discussion.  "I'm right if I'm right" is a tautology.
    Of course. 

    And I laid out - or rather John Daly effectively laid out in my view - the basis for my claim that the council taught heresy. I didn't simply assert "I'm right." 

    As to Paul VI being pope, he was elected pope.  I am simply taking a given - he was pope - and applying the Daly argument to Paul VI's approval of DH. 

    The burden would be on you to show that Paul VI was not what he appeared to be. 
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 12:23:21 PM »
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    • Sorry. I didn't link Daly in this thread. Here it is:


    Quote
    Is there a contradiction between Vatican II’s declaration on religious liberty (Dignitatis Humanae) and traditional Catholic doctrine as expressed in numerous encyclicals, and most especially in Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura? In recent years some intellectual conservatives have audaciously denied that there is any such contradiction. Before commenting on their attempts, let us remind ourselves of the texts:

    Quanta Cura    : “…against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that ‘the best condition of civil society is that in which no duty is attributed to the civil power of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except insofar as public peace may require.’

    “From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, viz., that ‘liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man and ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society’.”

    Dignitatis Humanae (Vatican II): “This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious liberty. Such liberty consists in this: that all men must be immune to coercion whether on the part of individuals, social bodies or any human power so that in religious matters no one is constrained to act against his conscience or prevented from acting in accordance with his conscience in private and in public, alone or with others, within due limits [these due limits are defined in paragraph 7 as being those of public peace and morality].

    “It further declares that the right to religious liberty is truly founded on the very dignity of the human person as known by the revealed word of God and reason itself.

    “This right of the human person to religious liberty in the juridical ordering of society is to be recognised so as to become a civil right.”

    Now to all appearances these texts are in radical contradiction on three points. Pope Pius IX condemns the following ideas: 1. all men have a right to liberty of conscience and of worship; 2. this right of religious liberty should be made a civil right in every well-ordered society; 3. the best state of society is that in which men’s civil right to religious liberty is limited only by the demands of public peace.

    These three points condemned by Pius IX are all three apparently taught by the Vatican II text. Moreover Pope Pius IX is exercising the Extraordinary Magisterium and teaches that these propositions are opposed to Holy Scripture (written divine revelation) while Vatican II declares its opposing doctrine to be founded on the revealed word of God and requires all Catholics to observe its teaching religiously.

    https://romeward.com/articles/239750983/religious-liberty-the-failed-attempts-to-defend-vatican-ii
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
    « Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 01:38:07 PM »
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    • Interestingly, I just realized that Vigano was ordained in March, 1968 (ie., Three months BEFORE Paul VI promulgated his Apostolic Constitution changing the forms of priestly ordination or episcopal consecration), so all other things being equal, there is NO DOUBT regarding the validity of his orders (nor of the orders of the bishop who ordained him).

    I had erroneously presumed otherwise.
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."
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