Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano (Read 38797 times)

DecemRationis · « **Reply #45 on:** June 12, 2020, 09:42:18 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 11, 2020, 08:00:46 PM

So, for instance, John Daly can argue that RL contradicts Tradition and the Deposit and is therefore objectively heretical, and he could very well be right (and I don't dispute that he is), but the logic used to arrive at that conclusion prevents his conclusion from being anything more than a personal opinion which cannot bind the consciences and the faith of others de fide.

Lad,

As I said earlier this morning, I have accused no one of formal heresy.

In the context of our discussion, all that matters is whether DH is materially heretical in terms of religious liberty. You have conceded that Daly "could very well be right (I don't dispute that he is)."

That being given or at least undisputed, we therefore have an ecuмenical council of the men then in possession of the sees of the bishoprics of the Catholic Church stating material heresy in a docuмent officially promulgated and approved by someone who sits in the chair of Peter as pope (de facto if not de jure) after being elected by a conclave of the then current cardinals of the Catholic Church.

By your recent concession, and I believe taking into account all of your objections, we have above a statement of the problem we can both agree on I think.

Of course, a possible explanation in light of your concession about Daly's argument is that Paul VI was not a true pope and therefore any potential problems about the Magisterium's indefectibility and/or infallibility legally evaporate (the Sedevacantist position).

That doesn't deal with the factual issue of this happening, which is an extraordinary and anomalous departure, something which has never happened in the history of the Church. I prefer to believe this is the discessio or schism/revolt prophesied in Scripture (2 TH 2), an anomaly decreed by God, like, for example, Judas being a "son of perdition" despite being "given to Christ by the Father," all of the rest of those so given (without exception sans Judas) being saved and reserved to a raising to heaven bodily on the last day. See John 6:37,39 and 17:12.

I do not and never have indicated that this is more than a personal opinion of my own, and have never said it binds the conscience of anyone. And I have never said the Daly conclusion regarding the heresy of religious liberty in DH is binding on anyone either. Those would be strawmen in reference to me.

DR

Ladislaus · « **Reply #46 on:** June 12, 2020, 09:54:52 AM »

Quote from: DecemRationis on June 12, 2020, 09:42:18 AM

In the context of our discussion, all that matters is whether DH is materially heretical in terms of religious liberty. You have conceded that Daly "could very well be right (I don't dispute that he is)."

Well, regardless, Vigano (the thread topic here) has stated that RL is erroneous, so accusing him even of material heresy is unwarranted.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #47 on:** June 12, 2020, 02:03:19 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on June 12, 2020, 09:54:52 AM

Well, regardless, Vigano (the thread topic here) has stated that RL is erroneous, so accusing him even of material heresy is unwarranted.

I said in post #44 of this thread:

Quote

And I point out to you - not wanting to take the time to respond to all of your responses to me on this subject - I have not accused a single other Catholic, certainly not Vigano whom I have commended, of heresy. Not one.

Do I need to explicitly say material or formal heresy? Fine. I have not accused anyone, especially the Archbishop, of material heresy in this discussion. In fact, I noted the he pointed out DH's material heresy or error (if you wish) on religious liberty.

Geremia · « **Reply #48 on:** June 12, 2020, 04:06:43 PM »

Archbishop Viganò, Donald Trump, and The Americanist Delusion of Traditional Catholics

songbird · « **Reply #49 on:** June 12, 2020, 04:48:36 PM »

Since Vigano has been resigned, as of age 75, now what? He is still New Order, correct? Does he give sacraments? I take it, that he does. He someone asks for the sacrament of Extreme Unction, will he give that sacrament or a mere blessing?

If Vigano needs Extreme Unction, who will give it? A new order clergy? a mere blessing.

I do question, if Vigano is of a changing heart, why does he stay new order? If sees the wrongs of the new order church, what is his solution?

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano (Read 38797 times)

DecemRationis

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano

Ladislaus

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano

DecemRationis

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano

Geremia

Archbishop Viganò, Donald Trump, and The Americanist Delusion of Trad Catholics

songbird

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano