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Author Topic: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano  (Read 38795 times)

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2020, 11:51:14 AM »
I’m not sure why the hand-wringing over Viganò’s use of the word “theorized” in conjunction with Dignitatis Humani (as though he intended, by the use of that word, to somehow “go soft” on that docuмent, when he unambiguously declares that docuмent contrary to Scripture, Tradition, and the magisterium).

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2020, 11:55:13 AM »
I know that.

Then you have to explain how what happened happened - something appearing to be an ecuмenical council approving something that's heresy under a man that appears to be pope.

I see that "appearance" - never before, and never again - as a prophesied anomaly, a one shot eclipse of the Church of Christ.

I don't think it gets us very far, in understanding what this is all about, in simply saying, he wasn't a true pope, and let's go on from there to . . .
Does it solve the problem?  No.  But it correctly diagnoses it.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2020, 12:10:15 PM »
Well, yeah, but whether you're right is what's under discussion.  "I'm right if I'm right" is a tautology.
Of course. 

And I laid out - or rather John Daly effectively laid out in my view - the basis for my claim that the council taught heresy. I didn't simply assert "I'm right." 

As to Paul VI being pope, he was elected pope.  I am simply taking a given - he was pope - and applying the Daly argument to Paul VI's approval of DH. 

The burden would be on you to show that Paul VI was not what he appeared to be. 

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2020, 12:23:21 PM »
Sorry. I didn't link Daly in this thread. Here it is:


Quote
Is there a contradiction between Vatican II’s declaration on religious liberty (Dignitatis Humanae) and traditional Catholic doctrine as expressed in numerous encyclicals, and most especially in Pope Pius IX’s Quanta Cura? In recent years some intellectual conservatives have audaciously denied that there is any such contradiction. Before commenting on their attempts, let us remind ourselves of the texts:

Quanta Cura
: “…against the doctrine of Scripture, of the Church, and of the Holy Fathers, they do not hesitate to assert that ‘the best condition of civil society is that in which no duty is attributed to the civil power of restraining by enacted penalties, offenders against the Catholic religion, except insofar as public peace may require.’


“From which totally false idea of social government they do not fear to foster that erroneous opinion, most fatal to the Catholic Church and the salvation of souls, called by Our Predecessor, Gregory XVI, insanity, viz., that ‘liberty of conscience and worship is the proper right of every man and ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society’.”

Dignitatis Humanae (Vatican II): “This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious liberty. Such liberty consists in this: that all men must be immune to coercion whether on the part of individuals, social bodies or any human power so that in religious matters no one is constrained to act against his conscience or prevented from acting in accordance with his conscience in private and in public, alone or with others, within due limits [these due limits are defined in paragraph 7 as being those of public peace and morality].

“It further declares that the right to religious liberty is truly founded on the very dignity of the human person as known by the revealed word of God and reason itself.

“This right of the human person to religious liberty in the juridical ordering of society is to be recognised so as to become a civil right.”

Now to all appearances these texts are in radical contradiction on three points. Pope Pius IX condemns the following ideas: 1. all men have a right to liberty of conscience and of worship; 2. this right of religious liberty should be made a civil right in every well-ordered society; 3. the best state of society is that in which men’s civil right to religious liberty is limited only by the demands of public peace.

These three points condemned by Pius IX are all three apparently taught by the Vatican II text. Moreover Pope Pius IX is exercising the Extraordinary Magisterium and teaches that these propositions are opposed to Holy Scripture (written divine revelation) while Vatican II declares its opposing doctrine to be founded on the revealed word of God and requires all Catholics to observe its teaching religiously.

https://romeward.com/articles/239750983/religious-liberty-the-failed-attempts-to-defend-vatican-ii

Re: Incredible Statement from Archbishop Vigano
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2020, 01:38:07 PM »
Interestingly, I just realized that Vigano was ordained in March, 1968 (ie., Three months BEFORE Paul VI promulgated his Apostolic Constitution changing the forms of priestly ordination or episcopal consecration), so all other things being equal, there is NO DOUBT regarding the validity of his orders (nor of the orders of the bishop who ordained him).

I had erroneously presumed otherwise.