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Author Topic: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson  (Read 9147 times)

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Offline Comrade

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Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2023, 02:15:21 PM »
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  • No.

    The validity of the current/recent pope(s) has NO bearing on the validity of the Mass or sacraments we receive from our Trad priests during this time of emergency.

    You can't equate "Is he a priest?" with "Let us solve the Crisis in the Church with full certainty." as questions of equivalent urgency, importance -- or possibility.

    Figuring out if a given man is a valid priest -- that we can do. Figuring out a supernatural mystery? Not so much.

    Granted, the Crisis in the Church (and the Mass, the Papacy, etc.) is of the utmost importance -- but it fails in the possible for humans to solve department.

    However, you can't just leave "Is he a priest?" for God to sort out later, decades from now. Because in the meantime, all your confessions could be invalid (if your "priest" turns out to be invalidly ordained) and all your "communions" could turn out to be mere bread. See the difference, bozo?

    Next.
    bozo? I did not mean to offend you and apologize if i did. You seem so certain that these new rite clerics are not valid. How can this not spill over into the requirements for a legitimate papacy? I take it that by "figuring out validity", the farthest you can take it is to avoid all new rite sacraments. But this positive doubt is not enough for you determine if Francis is legitimate or not.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #16 on: April 14, 2023, 02:45:35 PM »
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  • I take it that by "figuring out validity", the farthest you can take it is to avoid all new rite sacraments. But this positive doubt is not enough for you determine if Francis is legitimate or not.

    You're completely missing the point.

    The exact nature of the Crisis in the Church (what exactly happened in and around the 1960's, esp. with the Papacy, etc.) has not been solved yet. You might think it has, but it hasn't. All Catholics of moderate intelligence and good will are NOT on one side about this -- not yet.

    It is my personal opinion that the Crisis in the Church is a supernatural mystery, like the Holy Trinity, that the mind of Man could NOT figure out on its own power, without God stepping in and revealing it to us.

    So you see, trying to "determine if Francis is legitimate or not" would be a waste of time, since it's unreachable by human powers and reason -- at least according to my opinion.

    Why do I think that? What brought me to that opinion? Oh, I don't know -- maybe the past 53 years of Crisis during which time countless learned, brilliant and holy men from all parts of the earth have tried -- and failed -- to unite the whole of the Remnant behind one, exact, coherent explanation which answers ALL objections and leaves NO unanswered questions or objections.

    Sorry, but God is going to have to untie this knot for us. Until He deigns to do so, it shall remain tied.

    And frankly, even if the solution HAD been uttered by some cleric(s) and/or laymen during this past 53 years, who's to force the entire Catholic world to submit to it? Who can bind consciences on a disputed point with no means to prove who is right or wrong? Who can say "I have the Answer Key/Teacher's Manual from God -- and it says here that I'm right!"

    When the Crisis involves the very principle of unity and authority -- the Pope -- what makes us different from the Protestants BTW -- who can repair that? Who is higher than the Pope, who could fix a broken Pope situation?

    God. Perhaps through the agency of one of His angels, St. Peter, etc. But that still involves God stepping in, so we're back to my main thesis.
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    Offline AveCorMariae

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #17 on: April 14, 2023, 03:00:54 PM »
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  • All we have is a link to another forum with no further evidence, how do we know this information is official?

    Offline Domingo Banez

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #18 on: April 14, 2023, 03:10:05 PM »
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  • Great news! We certainly need more good Bishops

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #19 on: April 14, 2023, 03:46:10 PM »
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  • bozo? I did not mean to offend you and apologize if i did. You seem so certain that these new rite clerics are not valid. How can this not spill over into the requirements for a legitimate papacy? I take it that by "figuring out validity", the farthest you can take it is to avoid all new rite sacraments. But this positive doubt is not enough for you determine if Francis is legitimate or not.

    I don't;t think you aren't missing anything at all.  If I'm understanding you, you are asking whether those who believe the NREC is doubtful/invalid also believe that it is at least doubtful that Francis is a true bishop since he was consecrated in the New Rite too. And if they do believe that that makes him a doubtful bishop, how does that affect their position on his legitimacy as Bishop of Rome/pope.  Is that what you are asking?


    Offline hollingsworth

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #20 on: April 14, 2023, 03:49:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    So you see, trying to "determine if Francis is legitimate or not" would be a waste of time, since it's unreachable by human powers and reason -- at least according to my opinion.
    Good reasoning.  We arrived at the same conclusion years ago-- and ABL long before that

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #21 on: April 14, 2023, 04:30:05 PM »
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  • I don't;t think you aren't missing anything at all.  If I'm understanding you, you are asking whether those who believe the NREC is doubtful/invalid also believe that it is at least doubtful that Francis is a true bishop since he was consecrated in the New Rite too. And if they do believe that that makes him a doubtful bishop, how does that affect their position on his legitimacy as Bishop of Rome/pope.  Is that what you are asking?
    yes, that is correct. If I feel so strongly and certain that the NREC is invalid that compels me to avoid this NREC priest/bishop, how can this not influence recognizing the Bishop of Rome/Pope? As far as I know this would be unavoidable since one of the requirements for a pope is to be a valid bishop. Technically, this  specific question has nothing to do what happen 53 years ago. It is what is happening now. According to everyone's concern with the NREC, the last two popes are not even valid bishops. You can't use this argument with their predecessors.

    This Crisis is not my problem to solve; I am just observing and to trying to clear up what appears to be contradictions.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #22 on: April 14, 2023, 06:17:34 PM »
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  • It is what is happening now. According to everyone's concern with the NREC, the last two popes are not even valid bishops. You can't use this argument with their predecessors.
    This Crisis is not my problem to solve; I am just observing and to trying to clear up what appears to be contradictions.

    AS I SAID, this Crisis hasn't been solved. That includes (especially!) the Sedevecantist "solution". It leaves plenty of unanswered, gaping holes and questions.

    For example, the bit about Peter having perpetual successors. The gates of Hell not prevailing over the Church. And if you believe Pope Pius XII was the last pope, we're in a 65 year Interregnum AND COUNTING.

    Show me a Church Father who said that was possible. I'll wait.

    My point stands. With or without Sedevacantism, we're in the same boat. Crisis Status: UNSOLVED.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #23 on: April 14, 2023, 07:13:15 PM »
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  • Quote
    As far as I know this would be unavoidable since one of the requirements for a pope is to be a valid bishop.
    Not necessarily.  Even if Francis isn't a valid bishop, assuming his election was valid, he'd be a papal-elect.  So, in theory, the office would be filled (from a human/govt aspect) but it would be vacant (spiritually) until he were made a bishop and accepted properly.

    There were examples in history where young men were appointed bishops of their diocese, and they weren't even priests.  So, in theory, this could happen to a pope.

    To Matthew's point, the papacy is a mystery.  The idea that a man can be the "Vicar of Christ" and "infallible" is nothing short of a heavenly miracle.  Only God knows the limits of what He will allow and won't - and every crisis in Church history always proves this.  Once the dust settles and calm returns to the Church, we'll say (just like many people before us have said), "Well, I didn't think God would allow that to happen, but He did.  And I didn't think He would settle that problem so quickly and definitively, but He did.  And I see now the benefit to the Church, in having gone through all of that, for now doctrine x, y or z is more fully understood and appreciated.  Blessed be God!"

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #24 on: April 14, 2023, 08:30:24 PM »
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  • Mathew, I never made a case for sedevacantism, I never said I solved the Crisis, I never said that having positive doubt about Francis papacy would solve the Crisis. I am looking for a coherent defense that recognizing that there is positive doubt in the NREC does not logically conclude positive doubt of the Bishop of Rome. The answer I get is that it is mystery even though we have Vatican1 and are aware of the impediments to a valid election taught by the Church. The Crisis is a mystery but not every symptom of the crisis is. 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #25 on: April 14, 2023, 11:50:54 PM »
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  • Mathew, I never made a case for sedevacantism, I never said I solved the Crisis, I never said that having positive doubt about Francis papacy would solve the Crisis. I am looking for a coherent defense that recognizing that there is positive doubt in the NREC does not logically conclude positive doubt of the Bishop of Rome. The answer I get is that it is mystery even though we have Vatican1 and are aware of the impediments to a valid election taught by the Church. The Crisis is a mystery but not every symptom of the crisis is.

    It would be nice if people would use the search function before barfing up the same old stuff.  We just had a thread about the answer to the question (statement, really) you are making (and you’ve been here long enough to know it).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #26 on: April 15, 2023, 12:15:21 AM »
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  • Mathew, I never made a case for sedevacantism, I never said I solved the Crisis, I never said that having positive doubt about Francis papacy would solve the Crisis. I am looking for a coherent defense that recognizing that there is positive doubt in the NREC does not logically conclude positive doubt of the Bishop of Rome. The answer I get is that it is mystery even though we have Vatican1 and are aware of the impediments to a valid election taught by the Church. The Crisis is a mystery but not every symptom of the crisis is.
    I understand exactly where you are coming from, Comrade, it is a very pertinent question, an inevitable question, I would say, for anyone seriously trying to make sense of the crisis.

    I agree with Matthew that there is a certain element of mystery involved that can only be resolved with the full weight of the Church's Authority.

    However, in the meantime, the following teaching of St Robert Bellarmine certainly provides a "coherent defence" of this position of a Pope with doubtful orders being Pope nonetheless:

    Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some a
    re true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church... - St Robert Bellarmine, De Controversiis: On The Church, Bk III On The Church Militant, Ch X On Secret Infidels

    Isn't that interesting?

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #27 on: April 15, 2023, 02:20:44 AM »
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  • I understand exactly where you are coming from, Comrade, it is a very pertinent question, an inevitable question, I would say, for anyone seriously trying to make sense of the crisis.

    I agree with Matthew that there is a certain element of mystery involved that can only be resolved with the full weight of the Church's Authority.

    However, in the meantime, the following teaching of St Robert Bellarmine certainly provides a "coherent defence" of this position of a Pope with doubtful orders being Pope nonetheless:

    Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some a
    re true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church... - St Robert Bellarmine, De Controversiis: On The Church, Bk III On The Church Militant, Ch X On Secret Infidels

    Isn't that interesting?



    Well, what if he doesn't see himself as holding the place of Christ?

    Pope Francis: I’m Not The Vicar of Christ or Successor of the Apostles! Titles Mere Footnote
    https://catholictruthscotland.com/2020/04/03/pope-francis-im-not-the-vicar-of-christ-or-successor-of-the-apostles/


    And second, what if that isn't even the Catholic Church but 

    the false church of Chrislam 

    as they themselves declare it to be?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #28 on: April 15, 2023, 11:00:58 AM »
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  • I understand exactly where you are coming from, Comrade, it is a very pertinent question, an inevitable question, I would say, for anyone seriously trying to make sense of the crisis.

    I agree with Matthew that there is a certain element of mystery involved that can only be resolved with the full weight of the Church's Authority.

    However, in the meantime, the following teaching of St Robert Bellarmine certainly provides a "coherent defence" of this position of a Pope with doubtful orders being Pope nonetheless:

    Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some a
    re true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church... - St Robert Bellarmine, De Controversiis: On The Church, Bk III On The Church Militant, Ch X On Secret Infidels

    Isn't that interesting?

    Yes, that is interesting. I have to admit when I come across valuable quotes like this, I have to reread it a couple times and then follow with the source and then look for commentary.  I have not come to any hard conclusions at this time. There are usually distinctions that have to made. 

    What does "character of order" mean? Does it mean these true bishops and priests can be lacking the sacramental character of Holy Orders? The mystery continues...

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
    « Reply #29 on: April 15, 2023, 01:51:54 PM »
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  • I understand exactly where you are coming from, Comrade, it is a very pertinent question, an inevitable question, I would say, for anyone seriously trying to make sense of the crisis.

    I agree with Matthew that there is a certain element of mystery involved that can only be resolved with the full weight of the Church's Authority.

    However, in the meantime, the following teaching of St Robert Bellarmine certainly provides a "coherent defence" of this position of a Pope with doubtful orders being Pope nonetheless:

    Two things can be considered on Bishops: Firstly, that they hold the place of Christ so for that reason we owe obedience to them... Secondly, that they might have the power of Order and Jurisdiction. If it is considered in the first mode, we are certain with an infallible certitude that these, whom we see, are our true Bishops and Pastors. For this, neither faith, nor the character of order, nor even legitimate election is required, but only that they be held for such by the Church... Now if this is considered in the second manner, we do not have any but a moral certitude that these will truly be Bishops, although it is certain with infallible certitude that at least some a
    re true, otherwise God will have deserted the Church... - St Robert Bellarmine, De Controversiis: On The Church, Bk III On The Church Militant, Ch X On Secret Infidels

    Isn't that interesting?

    Since when is Bergoglio a secret infidel/occult heretic?  How does this apply?