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Author Topic: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson  (Read 10538 times)

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Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2023, 03:49:14 PM »

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So you see, trying to "determine if Francis is legitimate or not" would be a waste of time, since it's unreachable by human powers and reason -- at least according to my opinion.
Good reasoning.  We arrived at the same conclusion years ago-- and ABL long before that

Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2023, 04:30:05 PM »
I don't;t think you aren't missing anything at all.  If I'm understanding you, you are asking whether those who believe the NREC is doubtful/invalid also believe that it is at least doubtful that Francis is a true bishop since he was consecrated in the New Rite too. And if they do believe that that makes him a doubtful bishop, how does that affect their position on his legitimacy as Bishop of Rome/pope.  Is that what you are asking?
yes, that is correct. If I feel so strongly and certain that the NREC is invalid that compels me to avoid this NREC priest/bishop, how can this not influence recognizing the Bishop of Rome/Pope? As far as I know this would be unavoidable since one of the requirements for a pope is to be a valid bishop. Technically, this  specific question has nothing to do what happen 53 years ago. It is what is happening now. According to everyone's concern with the NREC, the last two popes are not even valid bishops. You can't use this argument with their predecessors.

This Crisis is not my problem to solve; I am just observing and to trying to clear up what appears to be contradictions.


Offline Matthew

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Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2023, 06:17:34 PM »
It is what is happening now. According to everyone's concern with the NREC, the last two popes are not even valid bishops. You can't use this argument with their predecessors.
This Crisis is not my problem to solve; I am just observing and to trying to clear up what appears to be contradictions.

AS I SAID, this Crisis hasn't been solved. That includes (especially!) the Sedevecantist "solution". It leaves plenty of unanswered, gaping holes and questions.

For example, the bit about Peter having perpetual successors. The gates of Hell not prevailing over the Church. And if you believe Pope Pius XII was the last pope, we're in a 65 year Interregnum AND COUNTING.

Show me a Church Father who said that was possible. I'll wait.

My point stands. With or without Sedevacantism, we're in the same boat. Crisis Status: UNSOLVED.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2023, 07:13:15 PM »
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As far as I know this would be unavoidable since one of the requirements for a pope is to be a valid bishop.
Not necessarily.  Even if Francis isn't a valid bishop, assuming his election was valid, he'd be a papal-elect.  So, in theory, the office would be filled (from a human/govt aspect) but it would be vacant (spiritually) until he were made a bishop and accepted properly.

There were examples in history where young men were appointed bishops of their diocese, and they weren't even priests.  So, in theory, this could happen to a pope.

To Matthew's point, the papacy is a mystery.  The idea that a man can be the "Vicar of Christ" and "infallible" is nothing short of a heavenly miracle.  Only God knows the limits of what He will allow and won't - and every crisis in Church history always proves this.  Once the dust settles and calm returns to the Church, we'll say (just like many people before us have said), "Well, I didn't think God would allow that to happen, but He did.  And I didn't think He would settle that problem so quickly and definitively, but He did.  And I see now the benefit to the Church, in having gone through all of that, for now doctrine x, y or z is more fully understood and appreciated.  Blessed be God!"

Re: Fr. Paul Morgan consecrated a bishop by Bp. Williamson
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2023, 08:30:24 PM »
Mathew, I never made a case for sedevacantism, I never said I solved the Crisis, I never said that having positive doubt about Francis papacy would solve the Crisis. I am looking for a coherent defense that recognizing that there is positive doubt in the NREC does not logically conclude positive doubt of the Bishop of Rome. The answer I get is that it is mystery even though we have Vatican1 and are aware of the impediments to a valid election taught by the Church. The Crisis is a mystery but not every symptom of the crisis is.