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Author Topic: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine  (Read 8096 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2024, 05:09:24 AM »
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  • Oh, give it a rest.  Utterly pathetic.  This has been the perennial hypocrisy of the SSPX, where their very raison d'etre rests upon the notion that one's conscience trumps the requirement for obedience to even the putative "Vicar of Christ", and yet you're evil if you have to disagree with +Lefebvre.  Give it a rest. 
    Oh for heaven's sake, it has nothing to do with "you're evil if you have to disagree with +Lefebvre," the whole scandalous affair from start to finish was caused by them, not +ABL.

    You act as if a disagreement of high importance obliged them to betray not only +ABL and the faithful, but also to split in order to join another order like the Dominicans, Redemptorists, or Franciscans. No, the disagreement, (which was half-baked in and of itself), is one that they instigated of their own volition and used as an excuse to be the driving factor to divide the faithful and start another order, the Sedevacantists. 

    As Fr. Sanborn said in the OP, now they're very happy, they accomplished what they set out to do. 

    The divisive aberration of Sedevacantism is due to nothing else than certain priests' losing sight of their proper roles in our present malaise. To save the Church from an heretical pope was never their assignment. Securing the Apostolic succession of the Church was never their assignment. What was their assignment? 

    It was to take care of the people whom God sent them as best they could, say their prayers faithfully, study and pray that they might not themselves fall victim to the spirit of Liberalism and worldliness, and keep their torment and speculations to themselves. The hierarchical structure of the Church and the papacy are not their business. Such high matters are the province of none other than Christ Himself and His Mother and the Apostles. - Fr. Wathen from Who Shall Ascend?


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #31 on: April 12, 2024, 05:24:56 AM »
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  • The priests in question (9+3) never took a solemn vow for anything related to the SSPX. The engagements with SSPX, whether temporary or perpetual, are not vows and, canonically, not even promises on the level of an ordination promise of obedience. In fact, the SSPX could never receive a solemn vow from anyone. Those are reserved to religious orders, not even religious congregations of common life let alone a community like explicitly says that it exists without vows.
    You can look it up. If they received the Order of Subdiaconate, Diaconate, or Priesthood, prior to that they made this solemn vow in their Oath of Fidelity: 

    "...Lastly, I sincerely promise, according to Canon Law, to obey with docility all that my superiors or the discipline of the Church command, ready to give, in word and in act the example of virtue in order to merit to be rewarded by God for having received such an office.

    I thus promise, I thus vow, I thus swear.  May God help me and these Holy Gospels that I touch."


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #32 on: April 12, 2024, 05:46:57 AM »
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  • You can look it up. If they received the Order of Subdiaconate, Diaconate, or Priesthood, prior to that they made this solemn vow in their Oath of Fidelity: 

    "...Lastly, I sincerely promise, according to Canon Law, to obey with docility all that my superiors or the discipline of the Church command, ready to give, in word and in act the example of virtue in order to merit to be rewarded by God for having received such an office.

    I thus promise, I thus vow, I thus swear.  May God help me and these Holy Gospels that I touch."


    :facepalm:

    Evidently the definition of a solemn vow that Elwin was attempting to articulate has gone right over your head ... as do most things apparently.  What this amounts to is a simple promise.

    Whatever happened to the R&R dogmatic dictum that "faith is greater than obedience"?  Catholics are SOLEMNLY bound to obey the Vicar of Christ on earth, but I guess if your "conscience" tells you, it's OK to break communion with him and refuse submission.  But somehow +Lefebvre > Vicar of Christ.  If "faith" can permit you to refuse obedience to a pope, a fortiori it can permit you to refuse obedience to a bishop who lacks any jurisdiction whatsoever.

    So, what if +Lefebvre had decided to impose an annual concelebration of the NOM on the priests of the SSPX?  Were they still bound by this alleged "solemn" vow?

    I'm not sure how much I can suffer of the people here who are bereft of any capacity for logic.

    There's no difference whatsoever, despite the purely-emotional claims to the contrary, between what The Nine did "in principle" vis-a-vis +Lefebvre back in the early 1980s and what the Resistance did in the early 2010s vis-a-vis +Lefebvre.  You might note that the vow cited above refers to obedience to "my superiors" and wasn't directed to +Lefebvre specifically, so this vow applied to the Resistance's relationship with +Fellay, who was their "superior" at the time.

    In the early 1980s, +Lefebvre was in an optimistic phase, since his nemesis Montini was gone, and he had hopes for some reconciliation with Wojtyla ... and so he was cozying up with Rome, asking to make the "experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon, and ready to make compromises.  That's precisely what +Fellay has been doing and what the Resistance has been objecting to.

    Now, the manner in which the Nine conducted themselves is a separate matter altogether, and is hardly beyond criticism, but what they did in principle, objecting to a cozying up with Rome, and the "seeking" of some practical agreement (without one ever having actually materialized) differs not a lick from what the Resistance has done.

    This reminds me of the contention that the as-yet-to-happen SSPX consecration of a bishop or bishops would render the SSPX hypocritical for having criticized the Resistance for consecrating bishops, where there's really no substantial difference other than a difference in "attitude" where the SSPX claim "well, we tried our best" vs. the Resistance are of the mindset "we don't care whether we have permission".

    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #33 on: April 12, 2024, 05:59:51 AM »
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  • You can look it up. If they received the Order of Subdiaconate, Diaconate, or Priesthood, prior to that they made this solemn vow in their Oath of Fidelity: 

    "...Lastly, I sincerely promise, according to Canon Law, to obey with docility all that my superiors or the discipline of the Church command, ready to give, in word and in act the example of virtue in order to merit to be rewarded by God for having received such an office.

    I thus promise, I thus vow, I thus swear.  May God help me and these Holy Gospels that I touch."

    A promise, not a solemn vow. Have you ever studied canon law in a formal way? Solemn vow has a very specific meaning.

    Since the SSPX was at the time either a suppressed institution (canonically did not exist) or was only on the level of a confraternity (no superiors who could warrant obedience), and those are the only two options (one cannot realistically pretend, though so many do, that the SSPX was a lawful congregation of common life), to whom was this PROMISE made? To the Msgr. Lefebvre as supposed Superior General of a nonexistent religious congregation? To the supposed local ordinaries of Sion or Bridgeport where the ordinations occured, who were manifest heretics and ipso facto deposed from those respective sees?

    I am dumbfounded by the lack of logic, consistency, and fundamental knowledge. You, who are an old-time traddy as am I, sound more like an opinionated church lady who clings to "Faaahther McBlahblahblah" than an informed and measured veteran of the war for Tradition.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #34 on: April 12, 2024, 06:07:30 AM »
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  • :fryingpan:

    Well done, St Giles. :facepalm:

    Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. (Romans 12:19)


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #35 on: April 12, 2024, 06:11:31 AM »
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  • I am dumbfounded by the lack of logic, consistency, and fundamental knowledge. You, who are an old-time traddy as am I, sound more like an opinionated church lady who clings to "Faaahther McBlahblahblah" than an informed and measured veteran of the war for Tradition.

    Offline Philip

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #36 on: April 12, 2024, 06:32:17 AM »
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  • 3. What the heck are you going on about a Mr. Stark? Are you talking about Iron Man? What does that have to do with the SSPX?
     Philip Stark - (not me!) - was a novus ordo Jesuit who wanted to join the English Mission of the SSPX c.1985/6.  He was offered conditional ordination by +ABL but refused it. His presence caused much grief amongst the faithful worried about not receiving valid sacraments.  At the time the other SSPX priests tried to ensure a ciborium of their consecrated altar breads was always present in the tabernacle along with anything 'Fr' Stark put there.  Eventually, he decided to go his own way.  A similar situation arose, some years later, with a 'Fr' Eason-Williams who, like Stark, refused conditional ordination.  He only stayed a few weeks and went on to become a Greek Orthodox monk on Mount Athos.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #37 on: April 12, 2024, 06:37:52 AM »
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  • 3. What the heck are you going on about a Mr. Stark? Are you talking about Iron Man? What does that have to do with the SSPX?

    This question demonstrates that you're really not very well informed on what actually took place, where you associate Stark (in the context of The Nine) with Iron Man rather than with Mr. Philip Stark.  He was probably THE single biggest reason for the split (rest could have been worked out somehow).  See the post above from Philip.  Not only did the man cause a huge stink, but then he left anyway (after the damage had been done).  So for the sake of Stark, Archbishop Lefebvre threw his good Traditional priests overboard.  He should have said, "Well, if you won't receive conditional ordination, you can't offer Mass at SSPX chapels."



    In past threads on this subject, Stubborn insisted that the break was due to "sedevacantism" ... acting as if he were a newbie to Tradition rather than some grizzled veteran.  Several of the Nine weren't even SV at the time, and if you read their complaints, there's hardly a mention of the subject.  I've spoken to a couple of them who were even somewhat ANTI-SV at the time of the split.


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #38 on: April 12, 2024, 06:48:00 AM »
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  • Stark caused a horrible crisis even amongst those who stayed with Msgr. Lefebvre after the Nine (+3) went their own way. My own chapel priest (non-SSPX) accepted conditional ordination from Lefebvre at the very time that Stark refused. He could never fully grasp why Stark refused and encouraged faithful to avoid Stark.

    Somewhere I have a memorial card of Stark's putative Jesuit ordination. I have not seen it in 25 years.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #39 on: April 12, 2024, 06:51:16 AM »
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  • https://truerestoration.org/an-interview-with-fr-anthony-cekada-regarding-archbishop-lefebvre-and-the-1983-split-with-the-sspx/

    Father Cekada's account:
    Quote
    What was that flash point?

    It was an aggregation of different points that we mentioned in our letter to the Archbishop. For example, the John XXIII liturgy which the Archbishop had suddenly decided to impose on the entire Society of St. Pius X, when we had been using the 1955 liturgy. There was that. There was also the difficulty, specifically in the United States, of priests ordained in the New Rite. There was a Fr. Philip Stark who was saying Mass in the Southwest District of the Society. We had tried to resolve that problem in a number of different ways. You had the idea of following the party line of the Society – the Society as a substitute for the Magisterium of the Church. You had in the background the negotiations with – at that time – Ratzinger of the CDF. The Archbishop was carrying on a negotiation with him, and when you heard that, that was especially troubling. What kind of pushed things over the top was Archbishop Lefebvre’s acceptance of modern marriage annulments. There was a case out west where there was a prominent traditional Catholic who we discovered was actually involved in a second marriage. So, we did a little investigation and we found out that the first marriage had been annulled on the grounds of “psychic immaturity” by one of these modernist tribunals. We told the person that you can’t accept that – that it was baloney – and this person then wrote to the Archbishop. The Archbishop wrote back through Fr. Parrrice LaRoche who was the Secretary General of the Society and without inquiring into the reasons for the annulment, said that the presumption had to be for the validity of the annulment – that text is reproduced in our letter of March 25, 1983. That pushed things over the edge.

    When they met with the Archbishop the first time, this the list, in order, of the point for discussion:
    Quote
    The first was doubtful priests, then the John XXIII [Mass], then expulsion of priests, then the idea of loyalty to the Church above loyalty to the Society, then the recognition of the Society’s subordination of authority to the authority of the Church, and the last thing was annulments.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #40 on: April 12, 2024, 06:57:19 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    Evidently the definition of a solemn vow that Elwin was attempting to articulate has gone right over your head ... as do most things apparently.  What this amounts to is a simple promise.Good heaven's again.
    Either way, neither are meant to be broken, or in their case, a lie.

    Quote
    Whatever happened to the R&R dogmatic dictum that "faith is greater than obedience"?  Catholics are SOLEMNLY bound to obey the Vicar of Christ on earth, but I guess if your "conscience" tells you, it's OK to break communion with him and refuse submission.  But somehow +Lefebvre > Vicar of Christ.  If "faith" can permit you to refuse obedience to a pope, a fortiori it can permit you to refuse obedience to a bishop who lacks any jurisdiction whatsoever.
    Now you're resorting to implying them being in danger of losing the faith by celebrating the 62 Mass and obeying God rather than the pope. Some logic. :facepalm:


    Quote
    So, what if +Lefebvre had decided to impose an annual concelebration of the NOM on the priests of the SSPX?  Were they still bound by this alleged "solemn" vow?

    I'm not sure how much I can suffer of the people here who are bereft of any capacity for logic.
    More of your ridiculous hypotheticals you use in your attempt to justify scandal, some logic. :facepalm:

    Quote
    In the early 1980s, +Lefebvre was in an optimistic phase, since his nemesis Montini was gone, and he had hopes for some reconciliation with Wojtyla ... and so he was cozying up with Rome, asking to make the "experiment of Tradition" within the Conciliar pantheon, and ready to make compromises.  That's precisely what +Fellay has been doing and what the Resistance has been objecting to.

    Now, the manner in which the Nine conducted themselves is a separate matter altogether, and is hardly beyond criticism, but what they did in principle, objecting to a cozying up with Rome, and the "seeking" of some practical agreement (without one ever having actually materialized) differs not a lick from what the Resistance has done.
    Being that you were NO back then, how would you even begin to know? Or did you read all about it in sede articles? Except for the part about +Fellay, what you say above is pure BS that stinks to high heaven.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #41 on: April 12, 2024, 07:02:51 AM »
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  • Being that you were NO back then, how would you even begin to know? Or did you read all about it in sede articles? Except for the part about +Fellay, what you say above is pure BS that stinks to high heaven.

    For all your "experience", you're incredibly ignorant.  Given how long you've been around, I agree with Elwin in marveling at your ignorance of some of the most basic things.  I spoke directly and at great length with several of the Nine over the years, beginning in the late 1980s ... not to mention that the docuмentation is still out there (as cited above).  I spent nearly a year with then-Father Sanborn as a seminarian, and several of the Nine also made visits there to help teach various courses.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #42 on: April 12, 2024, 07:02:59 AM »
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  • But you have it completely backwards.

    The Nine were supposed to do as they solemnly vowed to do, acknowledge and obey the direction and criticisms of +ABL, stop wanting to dictate which Mass to celebrate, stop concerning themselves about the status of the popes and simply do what they were ordained to do - concern themselves with doing all of their priestly duties as best as they can for the salvation of souls and for the greater glory of God, that's what was expected of them, that's why they were ordained. Not to scandalize and drive a wedge in the whole trad effort for generations.

     But that's all they had to do, just do what they were actually supposed to do, and for that, maybe, just maybe God would have rewarded them and the whole trad world with thousands, maybe 10s of thousands of more good, holy priests and bishops - who knows what else? 

    But no, they gave into their stinking pride - and for what?       


    The same could be said about the Archbishop. Why didn’t he just “acknowledge and obey the direction” of his “pope” Paul VI or “pope” JPII? Thank God he didn’t follow your advice!
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #43 on: April 12, 2024, 07:05:31 AM »
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  • A promise, not a solemn vow. Have you ever studied canon law in a formal way? Solemn vow has a very specific meaning.
    Ok, so they broke their promise and caused scandal - for no good reason.


    Quote
    Since the SSPX was at the time either a suppressed institution (canonically did not exist) or was only on the level of a confraternity (no superiors who could warrant obedience), and those are the only two options (one cannot realistically pretend, though so many do, that the SSPX was a lawful congregation of common life), to whom was this PROMISE made? To the Msgr. Lefebvre as supposed Superior General of a nonexistent religious congregation? To the supposed local ordinaries of Sion or Bridgeport where the ordinations occured, who were manifest heretics and ipso facto deposed from those respective sees?

    I am dumbfounded by the lack of logic, consistency, and fundamental knowledge. You, who are an old-time traddy as am I, sound more like an opinionated church lady who clings to "Faaahther McBlahblahblah" than an informed and measured veteran of the war for Tradition.
    Good Lord, the SSPX, whether "at the time either a suppressed institution (canonically did not exist) or was only on the level of a confraternity (no superiors who could warrant obedience)," was the life line, the only life line for many (most?) of the pioneering Catholics who did not abandon the true faith for the new faith. The entire scandalous episode was for no good reason. The main purpose it served was to divide the faithful - that's it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Flashback - Betrayal by the Nine
    « Reply #44 on: April 12, 2024, 07:06:23 AM »
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  • For all your "experience", you're incredibly ignorant.  Given how long you've been around, I agree with Elwin in marveling at your ignorance of some of the most basic things.  I spoke directly and at great length with several of the Nine over the years, beginning in the late 1980s ... not to mention that the docuмentation is still out there (as cited above).  I spent nearly a year with then-Father Sanborn as a seminarian, and several of the Nine also made visits there to help teach various courses.
    So this is your experience? It's no wonder you're so blind.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse