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Author Topic: Bp. Huonder to consecrate 2 Bishops for SSPX  (Read 22103 times)

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Offline Matthew

  • Mod
Re: Bp. Huonder to consecrate 2 Bishops for SSPX
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2019, 05:07:57 PM »
Yes, Meg, I do. There was even an exorcism where it was said, "After a long struggle, Econe will triumph."

An exorcism? really? And you believe the devil why? He's called the father of lies for a reason, you know. Only if God forces him will he say anything truthful or helpful to the triumph of God's kingdom. By default he is the great deceiver.

You need to go back to the seminary.

The devil is an angelic intellect, not God. The devil, having an angelic intellect, seems very advanced compared to us. But he's not all-knowing like God. The devil is not capable of prophecy.

Let me clue you in:
One of the limits on the devil's abilities is that he can't predict anything hinging on human Free Will (we can surprise the devil. yes, really!) or the inner plans of God's Providence. He also can't read our innermost heart.

God, meanwhile, is behind true prophecy because He knows the future, even things dependent on dozens of humans' Free Will. He knows what everyone will choose. And yet our will is still free! It is metaphysically impossible to surprise God.

The devil just understands the physical world intimately, knowing the laws of physics (etc.) intuitively, because he has an angelic intellect. As for predicting what humans will do, he is nothing more than a really well-informed, good guesser.

P.S. I've read dozens of Lives of the Saints, so I know loosely where you're getting this idea from. In various cases, the devil has been constrained by God to admit this or that about his tactics, the way he operates, truths of the Catholic Faith, the Real Presence, etc. But the devil can't be forced to prophesy, because he doesn't have the ability to see the future. That's how I know that the story is NONSENSE (to put it politely) -- wherever you read it from.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Bp. Huonder to consecrate 2 Bishops for SSPX
« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2019, 06:09:22 PM »
Quote
The SSPX has a special role to play in Church Restoration.
This is just pure sentimentalism, with no basis in Church History.  Sure, throughout the ages, certain Saints and religious organizations played a role in turning the tide against heresy but these individuals and orders did not restore the Church; God did, through providing a good pope and the hierarchy.  And those saints/orgs that helped during those faith-less time periods did 3 things consistantly:

1.  Waged utter, all-out war against heresy and lukewarmness and error.
2.  Preached spiritual goals, penance and conversion to sanctity.
3.  Usually, in a temporal sense, had all kinds of failures, obstacles to success and attackers of all kinds, including from within the Church.

Think of the non-compromising, multiple-times excommunicated St Athanasius against Arianism; the preaching of St Dominic on the Rosary against the Albigensians (who tried to kill him); the loss of titles, friends and wealth of St Thomas More; the contradictions and sufferings of St Margaret Mary and the Sacred Heart; the challenges, perils and death threats against St Patrick; etc, etc, etc.

Does the new-sspx have obstacles from new-rome anymore?  Are they facing persecution for protecting the Faith?  Are they in a fight to save the Truth against the enemies in rome?  No, no, and no.  In fact, the new-sspx now boasts that they are being "friendly" with new-rome.  How can you be friends with a person who wants to destroy what you love?  Either you don't really love what you say you do (i.e. Truth and the Church), or you're just tired of fighting and you want a nice, easy life.  Either way, you're a hypocrite and a wimp.

Does the new-sspx preach against V2 and the new mass as they used to do?  Do they preach against Modernism and all its heresies, without compromise?  Do they condemn V2 as an ambigious time-bomb of crappy theology and protestantized catholicity?  No, they do not.  Not anymore.  Instead, +Fellay and friends preach that V2 is 95% ok and "only" 5% wrong.

Would you give a child a coca-cola with "only" 5% of anti-freeze in it?  I hope not, cause they'd die very quickly.


Re: Bp. Huonder to consecrate 2 Bishops for SSPX
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2019, 12:46:24 AM »
Quote from: Matthew
P.S. I've read dozens of Lives of the Saints, so I know loosely where you're getting this idea from. In various cases, the devil has been constrained by God to admit this or that about his tactics, the way he operates, truths of the Catholic Faith, the Real Presence, etc.
Great. I'm sure, Matthew, you'll remember the famous one in the life of St. Dominic, then, when the demons were compelled against their will to bear witness to the Power of the Holy Rosary and the Blessed Mother's intervention, "Oh you who are our enemy, our downfall and our destruction, why have you come from Heaven just to torture us so grievously? O Advocate of sinners, you who snatch them from the very jaws of Hell, you who are the very sure path to Heaven, must we, in spite of ourselves, tell the whole truth and confess before everyone who it is who is the cause of our shame and our ruin? Oh woe unto us, princes of darkness: "Then listen well, you Christians: the Mother of Jesus Christ is all-powerful and she can save her servants from falling into Hell. She is the Sun which destroys the darkness of our wiles and subtlety. It is she who uncovers our hidden plots, breaks our snares and makes our temptations useless and ineffectual ... "Now that we are forced to speak we must also tell you this: nobody who perseveres in saying the Rosary will be damned, because she obtains for her servants the grace of true contrition for their sins and by means of this they obtain God's forgiveness and mercy." Then Saint Dominic had them all say the Rosary very slowly and with great devotion, and a wonderful thing happened: at each Hail Mary that he and the people said together a large group of devils issued forth from the wretched man's body under the guise of red-hot coals." http://www.catholictradition.org/Classics/secret-rosary33.htm

Quote
But the devil can't be forced to prophesy, because he doesn't have the ability to see the future.
I agree with what you said about the devil's limited angelic intellect and lack of full knowledge, but I disagree with your conclusion; for the simple reason that God often, for the further shame and humiliation of the enemies of the Truth, tells them in a general way (not in a specific way, with more details, like some of the inspired prophesies in Scripture) what will happen. The devils know Mary is going to crush them in the future, as God showed them long ago. And thus it is not unlikely God could have told them the SSPX will play a major part in Restoration. Here's a Priest who had 35 years of experience in exorcism from about a 100 years ago, who relates to us similar things, ""MARY CRUSHES THE SERPENT -30 Years of Experiences As An Exorcist Told In His Own Words" --Sequel to “Begone Satan”. Edited by Rev. Theodore Geiger. Translated: by Rev. Celestine Kapsner, O.S.B. This article contains some excerpts from an old booklet “Mary Crushes the Serpent”, originally distributed by Keefe's Catholic Gift Shop, 372 Selby Avenue, St. Paul, Minn. 55102 and obtainable on the internet for $3.00 from Spirit Daily here. The booklet was written under obedience by a German priest who was an exorcist for over 30 years; from 1874 to his holy death in 1909. The booklet was begun after his first 25 years of experience." http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2010/09/mary-crushes-serpent-virgin-marys-role.html

Mr. Ladislaus, would you like to address the examples of how Sacramental rites can be weakened by omitting prayers that pertain to integrity, while the essential form remains intact so that, the sacramental effect, however weakly, is still conferred? Can you explain what would happens in all Baptisms for example, if everything else was omitted, and only the "I baptize you in the Name of the Father ..." was used? I think you will agree loss of reverence for the Sacrament eventually and abundant loss of other graces will be consequent upon this. So why object when we appeal to a similar principle? I think you're just continuing your favorite R&R bashing activity.

It is a matter of little consequence to some of you apparently that, while there may already be potentially as many as 10,000 Mass Centres worldwide who would love to have the Traditional Mass every Sunday or even daily, not even all traditionalist orders together are able to do this for them: and yet we say we care about the salvation of souls and about that only. Do we really? You can do as you choose, Mr. Ladislaus. I reject your strawmen and your insinuations that the SSPX are not Catholic or not in full communion or whatever. I have every confidence in Bp. Fellay and Fr. Pagliarani to lead and represent the cause of Catholic Tradition worldwide and in Rome.

This is from Rorate Caeli: https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2019/02/around-5000-priests-currently-celebrate.html what is the gravest and most urgent need of the hour is many tens of thousands of more Priests worldwide who will celebrate the Tridentine Mass.

That which someone said earlier, "the Conciliar Church is so many LOST SHEEP: let's get ourselves in there and help them straighten it out" is a perfectly legitimate approach and imho is the correct one, Ladislaus. You can disagree if you want. We'll see 10 years from now.

Mr. Hollingsworth, you can enjoy yourself saying anything you like about me, as you are doing! If you really want to know any details about me, ask me and I will tell you: either on the forum or in a PM. I am a pre-seminarian in the SSPX. I have no idea why my height is important. It's about 5'11, close to 180 cm, for your information. Anyway, Important matters like validity of episcopal consecrations cannot, I'm afraid, be treated of in some 40 words, as you seem to wish. Whether or not Bp. Huonder is a valid Bishop is, of course, relevant to the thread topic and the conversation. So that brings us back to Fr. Marie's study and the new rite of episcopal consecration.

Meg and Pax Vobis, can you explain to me where, in the below interview I gave earlier from Bp. Fellay in 2015, His Excellency has been unwilling to combat errors? Bp. Fellay imho continues to do that courageously; it's just that he also has supernatural hope in doing so.
Quote
More than ever, on this feast day of November 21st, which for us is a major anniversary of the Declaration by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1974—a veritable charter for our battle for the Church of all ages—let us maintain a Catholic attitude in all circuмstances, whatever the difficulties and trials may be. Let us have the mind of the Church, let us be faithful to Our Lord, let us remain devoted to his Holy Sacrifice, to his teachings, to his examples. Yesterday I read that Cardinal Müller, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, feared a “protestantization of the Church”. He is right. But what is the new Mass, if not a protestantization of the Mass of all time? And what are we to think about the Pope who, like his predecessors, goes to a Lutheran church? When we see how the five hundredth anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017 is being prepared, how the figure of Luther is now saluted, although he was one of the major heresiarchs and schismatics in history, ferociously opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, it is enough to make you lose heart! Truly, Archbishop Lefebvre saw correctly when he said that “the only attitude of fidelity to the Church and to Catholic doctrine, for our salvation, is the categorical refusal to accept the Reformation,” because between Luther’s reform and the one undertaken by Vatican II there is more than one point in common. And with him, we say again that, “without any rebellion, bitterness, or resentment, we pursue our work of priestly formation under the guidance of the never-changing Magisterium, convinced as we are that we cannot possibly render a greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to posterity.” 

You understand this very well, dear friends and benefactors of the Society of St. Pius X. Your fervent prayers, your admirable generosity, and your constant devotion are for us an invaluable support. Thanks to you, the work of Archbishop Lefebvre is developing everywhere. With all my heart I thank you for this. 

We pray to Our Lady to obtain for you all the graces that you need. We ask the Good Lord to grant you His blessings for you and your families, so that you may prepare for the great feast of Christmas by a holy Advent, and that you may entrust the coming year, with its joys and crosses, to our Mother in Heaven."

On the Feast of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin, November 21, 2015
+ Bernard Fellay

Re: Bp. Huonder to consecrate 2 Bishops for SSPX
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2019, 01:11:47 AM »
Quote
What happens on CI topics all too often is a digression into other discussion areas, often unrelated, which the original OP never introduced or hardly anticipated. It always opens the way for crazies like Plenus Ventor to attach reams and reams of ridiculous off-topic links(?), in an effort, I guess, to make some elusive point. I think, maybe, that PV is simply a nut. But he is the kind of nut who seems to show up whenever the real topic at hand has gone wobbly and strayed.
Dear Hollingsworth, I see that you are a senior member. I am surprised by such an attack. We should treat others online just as we would treat them in person. I recommend to you the latest Eleison Comments.
Perhaps I am a nut. I don't know anything about you either, whether you are 4 years old, 40 or 80. Does it matter? Tell us all about yourself if you wish. We are here, please God, to help each other get to Heaven, to help others see through the confusion occasioned by Bishop Fellay's steering the SSPX on a dangerous course that puts souls in danger.
I don't believe my posting was a digression. It relates directly to episcopal consecrations. It even quotes Fr Calderon on this topic whom Bishop Williamson refers to in his sermon as being in his opinion the best theologian in the Society.
Furthermore, when Xaviersem directly contradicts what BW tells us in this sermon, that there is a shadow of a doubt with the new form of episcopal consecration, by stating that it is certainly valid, should we not highlight the error? When it comes to the sacraments, no doubt is acceptable, we must have certainty. This has serious implications for souls, particularly in the context of the current crisis in Tradition.
I apologise that for some reason my copy and paste went horribly wrong and half of the article did not appear. But is that reason to attack someone? I will try again posting the remainder of the article from Avrille which did not appear.
Again, I draw attention particularly to footnote 1:


[font=&quot,serif]Commentary[/font][/color][/u]



[font=&quot,serif]Archbishop Lefebvre relies on two principal arguments to assert that the new sacraments, especially ordinations, are henceforth questionable:[/font][/color]

·        [font=&quot,serif]the evolution of the rites;[/font][/color][/b]

·        [font=&quot,serif]and the defect in intention.[/font][/color][/b]

[font=&quot,serif] [/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]The new rites of the sacraments promulgated by the conciliar Church, promulgated in the typical editions in Latin, are probably valid[/font][/color][/b][font=&quot,serif] [/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]1[/font][/color][/sup][font=&quot,serif].  But that does not prevent numerous sacraments from being invalid in practice, for the two reasons quoted above.[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]Archbishop Lefebvre said that in his opinion a great number of new masses were invalid – while admitting the validity of the new rite in itself.[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif] [/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]Bp Tissier de Mallerais[/font][/color][/b][font=&quot,serif], in his sermon from June 29, 2016 at Econe, spoke as follows concerning the rite of ordination for priests:[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]“Clearly, we cannot accept this faked new rite of ordination that leaves doubts concerning the validity of numerous ordinations done according to the new rite[/font][/color][/b][font=&quot,serif].  [/font][/color][/i][font=&quot,serif]Thus this new rite of ordination is not Catholic.  And so we will of course faithfully continue to transmit the real and valid priesthood by the traditional priestly rite of ordination.”[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif] [/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif] [/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]In an article that appeared in Le Sel de la terre 54 on the subject of the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration, after showing that the rite in itself is probably valid, we added:Due to the generalized disorder, both at the liturgical and dogmatic levels, we can have serious reasons to doubt the validity of certain episcopal ordinations.”[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]And we quoted the remarks of Archbishop Lefebvre on the subject of the episcopal consecration of Bp Daneels, auxiliary bishop of Brussels: “Little booklets were published on the occasion of this consecration. For the public prayers, here is what was said and repeated by the crowd: Be an apostle like Peter and Paul; be an apostle like the patron of this parish; be an apostle like Gandhi; be an apostle like Luther; be an apostle like (Martin) Luther King; be an apostle like Helder Camara; be an apostle like Romero.Apostle like Luther, but what intention did the bishops have when they consecrated this bishop, Bp. Daneels[/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]2[/font][/color][/sup][font=&quot,serif]?”“It is frightening…Was this bishop really consecrated?  We can doubt it anyway.  And if that is the intention of the consecrators, it is incomprehensible!  The situation is even more serious than we thought[/font][/color][/i][font=&quot,serif]3[/font][/color][/sup][font=&quot,serif].”[/font][/color][/i]

[font=&quot,serif]We could quote numerous examples of sacraments given in the conciliar Church that were certainly invalid:  confirmations given without using holy oils; baptisms where one person pours the water, while another pronounces the words, etc[/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]4[/font][/color][/sup][font=&quot,serif].[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]This is why the position of Archbishop Lefebvre in the letter that we have quoted here, appears wise:  because of the particular importance of the sacrament of ordination, it is necessary to conditionally re-ordain the priests who come from the conciliar Church to the Traditional one.[/font][/color][/b]

[font=&quot,serif](Taken from “Le Sel de la terre” 98)[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif] [/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]1.      1. [/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]We can make an exception for the new rite of Confirmation that permits the use of oils other than olive oil, which introduces a doubt concerning the validity, by reason of a defect of matter.  We also point out that Fr Alvaro Calderon (SSPX), in the Spanish language review Si Si No No (#267, November 2014), speaks of a “slight doubt,” a “shadow” concerning the validity of the new rite of episcopal consecration in itself (see Le Sel de la terre 92, p. 172).[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]2.      2. [/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference in Nantes (France), February 5, 1983.[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]3.      3. [/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]Archbishop Lefebvre, Conference in Ecône (Switzerland), October 28, 1988.[/font][/color]

[font=&quot,serif]4.      4. [/font][/color][font=&quot,serif]We take this occasion to ask our readers who have knowledge of sacraments that are certainly invalid (notably baptism) to kindly send us their testimony.[/font][/color]

 

Offline Meg

Re: Bp. Huonder to consecrate 2 Bishops for SSPX
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2019, 10:03:26 AM »
Meg and Pax Vobis, can you explain to me where, in the below interview I gave earlier from Bp. Fellay in 2015, His Excellency has been unwilling to combat errors? Bp. Fellay imho continues to do that courageously; it's just that he also has supernatural hope in doing so.
Quote
More than ever, on this feast day of November 21st, which for us is a major anniversary of the Declaration by Archbishop Lefebvre in 1974—a veritable charter for our battle for the Church of all ages—let us maintain a Catholic attitude in all circuмstances, whatever the difficulties and trials may be. Let us have the mind of the Church, let us be faithful to Our Lord, let us remain devoted to his Holy Sacrifice, to his teachings, to his examples. Yesterday I read that Cardinal Müller, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, feared a “protestantization of the Church”. He is right. But what is the new Mass, if not a protestantization of the Mass of all time? And what are we to think about the Pope who, like his predecessors, goes to a Lutheran church? When we see how the five hundredth anniversary of the Protestant Reformation in 2017 is being prepared, how the figure of Luther is now saluted, although he was one of the major heresiarchs and schismatics in history, ferociously opposed to the Roman Catholic Church, it is enough to make you lose heart! Truly, Archbishop Lefebvre saw correctly when he said that “the only attitude of fidelity to the Church and to Catholic doctrine, for our salvation, is the categorical refusal to accept the Reformation,” because between Luther’s reform and the one undertaken by Vatican II there is more than one point in common. And with him, we say again that, “without any rebellion, bitterness, or resentment, we pursue our work of priestly formation under the guidance of the never-changing Magisterium, convinced as we are that we cannot possibly render a greater service to the Holy Catholic Church, to the Sovereign Pontiff, and to posterity.”

You understand this very well, dear friends and benefactors of the Society of St. Pius X. Your fervent prayers, your admirable generosity, and your constant devotion are for us an invaluable support. Thanks to you, the work of Archbishop Lefebvre is developing everywhere. With all my heart I thank you for this.

We pray to Our Lady to obtain for you all the graces that you need. We ask the Good Lord to grant you His blessings for you and your families, so that you may prepare for the great feast of Christmas by a holy Advent, and that you may entrust the coming year, with its joys and crosses, to our Mother in Heaven."

On the Feast of the Presentation of the Blessed Virgin, November 21, 2015
+ Bernard Fellay

Can you provide a link to the above communication of Bp. Fellay? I would like to see the entirety of the communication.

You mentioned that it's an interview, but Bp. Fellay looks to be addressing "friends and benefactors." I'm confused as to what sort of communication it is. Is it an interview, or is it a communication to friends and benefactors?