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Author Topic: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful  (Read 26299 times)

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Offline Mark 79

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Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2022, 10:24:50 AM »
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  • Some here are advocating recreational use or at least implying it via meme. …
     
    Only because you called for plain speech… bullshit!

    Tolerance of judicious non-medical use of MJ explicitly within the repeatedly stated limits of perennial Catholic moral theology is not "advocating recreational use."

    Only someone with shit for brains (plain speech as you wanted) would infer otherwise "via meme."

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #46 on: April 21, 2022, 10:25:23 AM »
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  • Sean, your Summary used the word "intoxication".  That's not what we're discussing...

    As I stated (in the same post you quoted from, but chose not to include), it discusses the matter from the standpoint of intoxication, but also other aspects (harm to self; harm to neighbor and society; etc).

    I posted it because not only does it apply the principles of St. Thomas Aquinas specifically to the use of recreational marijuana, but it gives a fuller treatment by expanding the moral analysis beyond the issue intoxication.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #47 on: April 21, 2022, 10:30:09 AM »
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  • Usually, they say something like, "You shouldn't smoke; it isn't good for your health."  My response has always been, "You shouldn't tell people (you don't know very well and who are 6'3", 200+) what they should or should not do; it isn't good for your health." 

    LOL!

    And yes, I DID laugh out loud at this, so I am using that worn-out expression here for good reason.

    And it's an even worse idea to do this when the person is Irish/choleric as well (but I repeat myself?)
    The Irish practically invented the pub brawl. And for those new to CI, I can talk about the Irish because my last name begins with Mc and my Dad's family is from there, several generations back.

    Stereotypes are true, more often than not. Or the stereotypes wouldn't "have legs" -- they wouldn't last and persist like cockroaches.
    Blacks DO like fried chicken and basketball. Irish DO like to drink and fight. Germans ARE very detail oriented and make good engineers. Italians DO tend towards art.

    And they say Trad Catholics are a feisty bunch, always arguing and having a hard time getting along -- that a Trad firing squad would be in the shape of a circle! Imagine that stereotype!
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #48 on: April 21, 2022, 10:30:19 AM »
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  • Sure! In my 1961 edition of Jone, section 110, he lays out the principles for intoxication, rules we are probably all familiar with. Subsection c) says the following:

    He never mentions marijuana (he mentions narcotics, which MJ is not), and even if he would have, he’s only discussing the issue of intoxication (which is not the only circuмstance pertaining to the morality of recreational marijuana).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #49 on: April 21, 2022, 10:32:20 AM »
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  • So you see nothing wrong with nuns going around saying "sh**" or "what a b***" or  "f***" or lighting up a doobie?  

    Where did I say that?  You do realize that saying something is not, in and of itself, an evil is not the same as saying it is, in and of itself, a good or virtuous thing?

    You have a notable tendency to (intentionally?) frame your questions in a way that distorts the actual discussion.  This helps no one, although it might make you feel clever.

    Considering religious have taken vows that tend toward perfection, it seems reasonable to think such behaviors are inconsistent with the singular goal they, by solemn profession, are pursuing.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #50 on: April 21, 2022, 10:33:08 AM »
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  • Stereotypes are true, more often than not. Or the stereotypes wouldn't "have legs" -- they wouldn't last and persist like cockroaches.
    Blacks DO like fried chicken and basketball. Irish DO like to drink and fight. Germans ARE very detail oriented and make good engineers. Italians DO tend towards art.

    Are stereotypes about pot smokers true?
    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #51 on: April 21, 2022, 10:35:16 AM »
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  • Sean, the issue of "health" is WAY too subjective for this topic.  Some people can use asprin; some will die.  Some people can eat nuts; some will die.  Etc, etc.

    Commercially, chemically infused tobacco cigarettes are FAR MORE dangerous than natural tobacco cigs.  You can get organic weed...haha.

    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #52 on: April 21, 2022, 10:39:21 AM »
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  • Where did I say that?  You do realize that saying something is not, in and of itself, an evil is not the same as saying it is, in and of itself, a good or virtuous thing?

    You have a notable tendency to (intentionally?) frame your questions in a way that distorts the actual discussion.  This helps no one, although it might make you feel clever.

    Considering religious have taken vows that tend toward perfection, it seems reasonable to think such behaviors are inconsistent with the singular goal they, by solemn profession, are pursuing.

    Yes, I ask probing questions to further discussion and dig for deeper truth.  I think asking questions is a good thing.

    Yes, what you are saying is correct.  If something in itself is not evil it may not be good or virtuous and it may be ill advised in different circuмstances especially if it can be a stumbling block to others.  This is what St Paul was advising.

    So religious are called to higher standards.  Are parents also called to higher standards?  Are teachers?  Are Catholics in the world?

    Just some things to consider.

    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



    [fon


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #53 on: April 21, 2022, 10:50:40 AM »
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  • 1) As Rochefoucald has observed, several posts have heavily implied support for recreational use.  Perhaps they were disingenuous, and/or taunting their adversaries, but to clear up any confusion, I posted the article. 

    If nobody here is advocating recreational use, it’s difficult to understand Ladislaus’s repeated example of microdosing not being sinful (which seems to have no other purpose than to “prove” small amounts can be taken -even recreationally- without sin).

    Even if that is conceded, see #2 below...

    The obvious (?) parodies in the "pot roast" thread are exactly that, parodies. Those who have posted such parodies have explicitly, meticulously, and annotatedly spoken against MJ use beyond what is allowed according the Catholic moral theology.

    Yet, even today, the straw man carciatures are still painted by the usual suspects.



    2) “practically very rare” (ie., that a pot user avoids the stultifying effects of MJ) is exactly accurate, not a “red flag” as you seem to think.  It clearly means that, unlike alcohol use, 1-2 puffs of weed are taken precisely to produce -and not avoid- this effect (and in fact, that effect is almost always produced).  Again, Ladislaus had to go all the way to “microdosing” to avoid recognizing that fact.

    Common, not "particularly rare." Because of my 12 year advocacy of appropriate medical usage, I have met and spoken in detail with several hundred (?thousand?) patients who have explicitly stated their careful titration of MJ dosing.

    The most typical statement is, "I used to use 90-120mg morphine equivalents*** of OxyIR and OxyContin every day until I switched to one puff of 'indica' in the morning and at night. I was incapacitated from most work and home life while on Oxy, but now am able to function well at home and work. No impairment at all."

    ***A patient's life is at risk and a doctors' medical license is at risk when prescribing exceeds 40-60 M.E. per day.

    I recall similar statements from numerous asthma and mutiple sclerosis patients.

    These medical observations inform my tolerance, not advocacy, of social MJ use. It is not merely a hypothetical fiction, but an absolute reality that many people can and do titrate dosing, "micro-dosing" as Lad docuмents.


    3) Mark79 is looking at the issue from the vantage of medicinal benefit, and in that regard he seems to have some knowledge.  But from the moral perspective, I’m sure he would not presume to know more about morals that traditional priests.  But in any case, the article is not discussing medicinal use.

    I repeat, my medical observations inform my tolerance, not advocacy, of social MJ use.

    I have been referred several suffering parishioners by traditional priests who do understand and apply the relevant Catholic moral theology.

    Of course I keep this low profile. I choose to avoid and choose to help those priests avoid the rabid lunacy of the ignorati such as we have seen here.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #54 on: April 21, 2022, 10:57:32 AM »
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  • The obvious (?) parodies in the "pot roast" thread are exactly that, parodies. Those who have posted such parodies have explicitly, meticulously, and annotatedly spoken against MJ use beyond what is allowed according the Catholic moral theology.

    Yet, even today, the straw man carciatures are still painted by the usual suspects.


    Common, not "particularly rare." Because of my 12 year advocacy of appropriate medical usage, I have met and spoken in detail with several hundred (?thousand?) patients who have explicitly stated their careful titration of MJ dosing.

    The most typical statement is, "I used to use 90-120mg morphine equivalents*** of OxyIR and OxyContin every day until I switched to one puff of 'indica' in the morning and at night. I was incapacitated from most work and home life while on Oxy, but now am able to function well at home and work. No impairment at all."

    ***A patient's life is at risk and a doctors' medical license is at risk when prescribing exceeds 40-60 M.E. per day.

    I recall similar statements from numerous asthma and mutiple sclerosis patients.

    These medical observations inform my tolerance, not advocacy, of social MJ use. It is not merely a hypothetical fiction, but an absolute reality that many people can and do titrate dosing, "micro-dosing" as Lad docuмents.

    I repeat, my medical observations inform my tolerance, not advocacy, of social MJ use.

    I have been referred several suffering parishioners by traditional priests who do understand and apply the relevant Catholic moral theology.

    Of course I keep this low profile. I choose to avoid and choose to help those priests avoid the rabid lunacy of the ignorati such as we have seen here.

    Just wanted to reiterate, that we are not discussing medicinal use of MJ.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #55 on: April 21, 2022, 10:59:52 AM »
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  • Just wanted to add to #1 that, besides Ladislaus’s microdosing justification, there were several others in the various MJ threads which attempted to draw a false equivalence between 1-2 glasses of wine/beer, and 1-2 puffs of MJ (for which there is no proportion in the effect produced), which again heavily implies its alleged moral recreational use.

    Sorry to be blunt, Sean, but you are wrong. Depending upon the strain, the proportion of various phytocannabinoids, and the route of ingestion, it is easy to stay well within the equivalence of 1-2 glasses of wine (preferrably a Sangiovese or Mourvedre).

    Can MJ be overdone? Yes, just as with any alcoholic beverage.

    Can MJ be done within the limits of Catholic moral theology? Yes, just as with any alcoholic beverage.


    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #56 on: April 21, 2022, 11:00:43 AM »
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  • Just wanted to reiterate, that we are not discussing medicinal use of MJ.
    Just reiterating, medical research and medical usage inform my/our position on social use.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #57 on: April 21, 2022, 11:05:25 AM »
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  • [Whatever the amount is ...] to produce a similar level of impairment as [whatever amount of alcohol] doesn't really matter.  

    This is quite insightful. It is a basic principle of human pharmacology.

    If Drug A gives a certain benefit at a low dose, but Drug B gives more benefit at a higher dose without side effects, Drug B is preferred.

    The "potency" issue only matters if it takes wheelbarrow-sized dosing to get the benefit.

    Hence, discussion of potency is usually a red herring issue.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #58 on: April 21, 2022, 11:07:21 AM »
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  • Sorry to be blunt, Sean, but you are wrong. Depending upon the strain, the proportion of various phytocannabinoids, and the route of ingestion, it is easy to stay well within the equivalence of 1-2 glasses of wine (preferrably a Sangiovese or Mourvedre).

    Can MJ be overdone? Yes, just as with any alcoholic beverage.

    Can MJ be done within the limits of Catholic moral theology? Yes, just as with any alcoholic beverage.

    Hi Mark-

    In my experience, that is not the case for most people. 

    The only people I knew that might apply to are longtime habitual users/addicts.

    If I drink 1-2 glasses of wine, I’m lucky if I feel any effect at all.

    But I recall many of my college rugby teammates (in the 225lb category) being nearly incapacitated from a couple puffs, and that was back in the 1990s when the pot was weaker.

    That said, I do concede the effect is likely different among different users, but a couple puffs was plenty for those users I knew in college.

    Pax tecuм.

    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Why Marijuana is Gravely Sinful
    « Reply #59 on: April 21, 2022, 11:16:42 AM »
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  • It is false to contend that “morality hinges entirely upon the impairment of the faculties...”

    Am I morally permitted to drink poison (or otherwise harm myself) if there is no impairment of reason?

    For example, if it were shown that sustained use of MJ in small doses (microdosing) causes schizophrenia, would it still be a morally licit practice?

    Alcohol is a poison. The ICD-10 diagnostic code for alcohol poisoning is T51.
    There is no MJ poisoning code because nobody ever died from MJ alone.

    From the very earliest of posts in this MJ tsunami, we stipulated that some people should not under any circuмstance use MJ. I specifically mentioned that pre-psychotics and schizophrenics should not use MJ.

    The Reefer Madness crowd, even in the 2022 peer-reviewed literature :facepalm: , makes much of the few people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia after MJ use.

    Correlation is not causation. Plain and simply, some people's schizophrenia was not diagnosed until after their schizohrenia was noticed and hence diagnosed after some medical or legal incident. Others were pre-psychotic and were pushed over the edge by MJ. People with schizophrenia and mania and other mental disorders should NOT use MJ.

    There is no evidence that MJ causes schizophrenia.