Author Topic: What is Fr. Gruners angle? (Read 6231 times)

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2013, 08:16:39 PM »

Quote from: whoever

Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn...

Watch your mouth. Father Cekada is a legitimately-ordained priest in the traditional rite. +Dolan and +Sanborn are Their Excellencies BISHOP Dolan and BISHOP Sanborn, respectively.

You might not like their views, but they aren't running around without being regularized and incardinated in a diocese like Gruner is.

Oh, and those mean, nasty articles that say that sedevacantism is wrong, how COULD you! Layman Mr. Gruner disagrees with my PERSONAL, PRIVATE opinion! Oh, no!

Funny... the MODERATOR of this forum and I happen not to agree on the recognize/resist position, which is why he and his family attend an SSPX chapel and I won't, at least not until I understand the nuances of the position better.

You don't see me making snide remarks about Matthew.

There are other people here with whom I do not agree concerning "baptism of desire/blood", etc, but I consider them Catholics and would not question their commitment to the Faith.

The fact that Gruner even exists is of no concern to me. I've never read any of his books or books about him, and his efforts or opinions or tactics or whatever mean ZERO to me as concerns Our Lady's messages at Fatima.

I am absolutely convinced that the messages at Fatima represent one of the crucial, final revelations from Heaven regarding what will happen if mankind, particularly Catholics, continue in sin and indifference.

I pray the Rosary daily. I offer prayers for the holy souls in Purgatory. I am vigilant in making every effort to catechize my children and prepare my whole family for reception into full communion with Holy Church.

Nicholas Gruner and his form-letter baloney and his

"this time, we're really going to have someone... um... LISTEN, and um, maybe even possibly tell someone to tell the Pope, and maybe we can get an audience, and, um..."

nonsense have never affected my belief in the Fatima apparitions and never will, at least not any more than any other layman would.

Incredulous · « **Reply #16 on:** September 17, 2013, 08:30:37 PM »

Quote from: Stephen Francis

"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.

I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?

Is the basis of the accusation only because the ordination was done in the post Vatican II ordination rite ?

If so, why didn't he get conditionally ordained ? He knows all the trad Bishops.

Incredulous · « **Reply #17 on:** September 17, 2013, 08:38:05 PM »

I have a problem with Father Gruner not publicly admitting the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.

The visible evidence is overwhelming.

Father Gruner is said to have privately admitted that if he spoke about the "Two Sister Lucy's" it would negatively impact his Consiliar church donations.

Attempting to hide the truth and appease the Consiliar faction in their blindness is uncharitable and damaging to Holy Mother Church.

ggreg · « **Reply #18 on:** September 17, 2013, 08:49:38 PM »

Perhaps he does not believe in two sister Lucys.

Plenty of people don't.

Visible evidence is overwhelming to you perhaps.

To other people they both look like the same person.

hollingsworth · « **Reply #19 on:** September 17, 2013, 09:19:42 PM »

Quote

I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?

I had never heard it either. He is a properly and validly ordained priest as far as I am concerned. And, please, let's not make it incuмbent upon the man to believe in two Lucys. Enough already! :smile:

Mabel · « **Reply #20 on:** September 17, 2013, 09:51:03 PM »

Quote from: Incredulous

Quote from: Stephen Francis
"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.

I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?

Is the basis of the accusation only because the ordination was done in the post Vatican II ordination rite ?

If so, why didn't he get conditionally ordained ? He knows all the trad Bishops.

He believes he was validly ordained because he was ordained in the Italian language and he maintains that the core form of the words were not changed.

I'm not justifying or defending him here, that is just his defense as far as I know.

I would not attend his mass for the doubt of his ordination. I personally think he could do more good if he accepted the sedevacantist position, but I don't doubt that his intentions are good.

Stephen Francis · « **Reply #21 on:** September 17, 2013, 10:51:44 PM »

"was ordained in the Italian language..."; strike one.

"believes that the core of the words were not changed"; strike two.

"post-Vat-II ~~ordination~~ installation rite"; strike three.

You know what three strikes means, don't you?

The man was installed as a presider in 1976. He is not even recognized as a regularized presider by Newchurch.

If he hasn't been conditionally re-ordained, why wouldn't the traditional clergy have done it already? Never mind why he hasn't sought it. Why wouldn't they offer?

Just as with the "two Lucys" theory, it all speaks to his ability to keep giving lectures in front of Newchurch sensationalists who really believe that going to conferences and buying trinkets is more important than mortification and holiness.

If he got validly ordained and then aligned himself with the Resistance, he'd lose all the little old ladies and conspiracy-theorist Neocons who want to donate to him.

By the way, there are NOT two Sister Lucias. There's only one, and she died in the late 1940s. The impostor that was palling around with Paul the Sick and Wojtyla and the rest is Sister Lucia like I'm Al Sharpton.

The Church doesn't need someone on its side like Gruner, trying to play both sides to the middle. It's a typical sedeplenist/R&R problem. "Those mean Cardinals! That mean old Vatican! They won't release the true Third Secret!"

Meanwhile, he goes to Newchurch parishes, takes plenty of Newchurch money for his efforts and still gets to present himself as a 'priest'.

Newchurch hasn't excommunicated him yet because he's not really naming names; he blames lots of retired and/or dead people for all the resistance he's faced.

My biggest problem with Gruner is that he wants to be seen as some paragon of traditional Catholicism within Newchurch, but he apparently doesn't even care enough about the souls of the people he lectures to; if he did, he wouldn't be possessed of an irregular status. He'd be doing what his superiors have been telling him to do for decades.

He's just kindly-looking and 'conservative' enough for the neocons and grandmas in the parish meeting halls and hotel ballrooms, but he gets to play the 'rogue agent' bit to the hilt because having mean, nasty prelates opposing HIM and HIS disobedience can be spun into "resistance to Our Lady!!! They're fighting against the Virgin of Fatima!!!"

Sorry, but His Excellence +Lefebvre, His Excellence +Williamson, Fr. DePauw and others have never been anything but EXEMPLARY Catholic clergy. None of this playing-both-sides-to-the-middle garbage.

My Internet bill is coming due... TIME IS SHORT. YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO KEEP THESE POSTS COMING IS NOW!!! I count on YOU, [subscribername], for the support I need to STAY ON CATHINFO so that these IMPORTANT MESSAGES can be read by as many people as possible!!

Francisco · « **Reply #22 on:** September 18, 2013, 04:41:29 AM »

Well, this Mr X.Lerma should be invited to the Rev Gruner's next Peace Conference ....

http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/06-09-2013/125583-putin_obama-0/

Putin's wall Obama's fall
06.09.2013

By Xavier Lerma

Even though the US thinks they are in charge of humanity the reality is they are not. In their imaginary world the toothless media supports their spit ball shooting president. They actually think their words are supreme and final. Kerry and McCain keep dancing in a parade trying to influence a congress which is neither conservative nor moral but nevertheless war weary. The once drug addict now US leader cannot fight against Vladimir Putin who brought Russia from poverty in the 90's to a more stable economy today. Obama's buffoonery selling the war against Syria has hit a wall thanks to President Putin's firm stance and leadership.

Focusing on war instead of a trillion dollar debt, Obama's forte is to spread chaos not only in America but in the world. Like a fire bug his wake has left North Africa burning and he now supports terrorists the US once fought against. Bush once said that when Obama got into office that Barry would have to do the same and continue fighting in the Middle East. "Mr. I'll bring home the troops next summer" has broken that promise and kept his "YES WE CAN start more wars" pledge. As they say in America, "he's Bush on steroids".

Although US public opinion is against another war the Bush haters will not protest Obama's wars. I guess their feet hurt or Soros ran out of money. Code Pink went home to bake cookies or those in charge feel nothing can stop them now. Well, Putin is still in charge of the Middle East. The blood thirsty west can only grind its teeth, wail and scream, writhe in agony, spitting out lies, threats and accusations against Russia. Like Hitler and Napoleon, they will also meet their end.

Russia, who has slain its Red Dragon (Communism) long ago, is now facing Puff the Magic Dragon. Blowing smoke in his people's eyes and spreading democracy with bombs. Magic that cannot fight against the truth. Puff must face reality and will try to save face. He will blame the Republicans who stand in his way and his worshipers will pity and love him. Playing the race card once again will bring more power to his throne.

The Saudi King whom Obama bowed to and Bush kissed will try again and again. Demanding Obama attack Syria. Trying to bribe Putin or threatening Russia with terrorists. He cannot let Russia, the largest country and the number one oil and gas producer, stand in their way. They want the world coming to them for oil and they know Russia will become more powerful in the future supplying Europe, China and other major countries. The Saudis must have complete control of the Middle East now before it's too late.

Conservative Americans and those in the world are seeing Barry falling apart at the seams when he goes against Putin. They see a weak- kneed, lying, war mongering punk against a well educated, confident and successful leader. President Putin can stand alone and speak without a teleprompter or notes and argue reasonably. He can give interviews anytime without worry because he does not have to try to remember a lie or wonder what to say. He only has to gives facts which are easy to remember. His conservative economics and religious views are admirable in their eyes.

Forgotten or ignored by the west are the Christian men and women of Russia who prayed, suffered and died for today's free and united Russia. Last century they were attacked by Hell itself yet they endured and rebuilt Christ's Church. Over 58 Million were killed in Communist Russia but the Faith survived. It is one of the greatest miracles in world history. The western media prefers to shriek like spoiled brats against Putin. "Evil dictator!" they shout, while they themselves have rejected the Holy Spirit and proudly wear the seal of the Antichrist. They laugh but God is not mocked. Christ is Victorious in Russia where ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is still a sin; blasphemy a crime; where crosses and holy images are in public view. A renewed faith in Christ our King has become our fortress. This is the wall Putin stands on and the wall that will cause Obama's fall.

Xavier Lerma

Contact Xavier Lerma at xlermanov@swissmail.org

Hyperlink to Pravda is mandatory if you republish this article.

poche · « **Reply #23 on:** September 18, 2013, 05:22:44 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

I am still waiting to see that supportive letter that Fr. Gruner said he received from Francis a few days after Francis was elected. The letter being sent to Fr. Gruner when Francis was Cardinal Bergoglio. I think Gruner said he had a couple of supportive letters not just one..

Even if privacy means he cannot publish them, then surely Pope Francis being so into Fatima and supportive of Father Gruner, which is what Gruner and yourself claimed those letters contained, supportive comments, not merely polite form letters thanking Fr Gruner for his large pack of Fatima literature; it should be child's play to get an audience with Pope Francis and have him regularise Father Gruner, at least, and maybe even get the consecration of Russia underway.

This after all is a humble and available Pope who cold calls people including his old car mechanic and newspaper seller. How hard can it be for Father Gruner to get an audience with him?

Mybe he could cold call Father Gruner. I wonder what he would ssay?

poche · « **Reply #24 on:** September 18, 2013, 05:28:36 AM »

Quote from: Incredulous

I have a problem with Father Gruner not publicly admitting the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.

The visible evidence is overwhelming.

Father Gruner is said to have privately admitted that if he spoke about the "Two Sister Lucy's" it would negatively impact his Consiliar church donations.

Attempting to hide the truth and appease the Consiliar faction in their blindness is uncharitable and damaging to Holy Mother Church.

What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?

TKGS · « **Reply #25 on:** September 18, 2013, 06:32:26 AM »

Quote from: Mabel

Quote from: Incredulous
Quote from: Stephen Francis
"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.

I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?

Is the basis of the accusation only because the ordination was done in the post Vatican II ordination rite ?

If so, why didn't he get conditionally ordained ? He knows all the trad Bishops.

He believes he was validly ordained because he was ordained in the Italian language and he maintains that the core form of the words were not changed.

I'm not justifying or defending him here, that is just his defense as far as I know.

I would not attend his mass for the doubt of his ordination. I personally think he could do more good if he accepted the sedevacantist position, but I don't doubt that his intentions are good.

I've not heard that he was ordained in the Italian language, but I have heard him speak of his ordination and he was, indeed, ordained in the New Rite. He found traditional Catholics support his apostolate more than Novus Ordo Catholics. I'm not exactly sure when he started to say the traditional Mass, but I suspect it was around the same time.

I was at a conference in South Bend, Indiana several years ago where he spoke. I was quite amazed that, after giving his talk, he went into a tirade against sedevacantism, which had nothing to do with his talk and wasn't a topic of the conference. The tirade lasted about 10 minutes. At the time, I barely knew anything about the sedevacantist thesis and was very confused as he rambled and made absolutely no sense.

He frequently declares that he has all kinds of support for his Fatima message, but that support seems fictitious, for I have never seen any action to back up that supposed support.

mikemac · « **Reply #26 on:** September 18, 2013, 09:10:58 PM »

Quote from: Stephen Francis

Quote from: whoever
Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn...

Watch your mouth. Father Cekada is a legitimately-ordained priest in the traditional rite. +Dolan and +Sanborn are Their Excellencies BISHOP Dolan and BISHOP Sanborn, respectively.

So was Martin Luther.

I figured that's what was biting your but.

Francisco · « **Reply #27 on:** September 18, 2013, 10:34:02 PM »

Quote from: mikemac

Quote from: Stephen Francis
Quote from: whoever
Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn...

Watch your mouth. Father Cekada is a legitimately-ordained priest in the traditional rite. +Dolan and +Sanborn are Their Excellencies BISHOP Dolan and BISHOP Sanborn, respectively.

So was Martin Luther.

I figured that's what was biting your but.

Frs Cekada, Dolan and Sanborn were among the earliest ordinands of Archbishop Lefebvre! What happens to those who have defected from the SSPX to the Novus Ordo or the Ecclesia Dei groups - do they too become "Fathers"?

Incredulous · « **Reply #28 on:** September 19, 2013, 12:19:27 AM »

Quote from: poche

Quote from: Incredulous
I have a problem with Father Gruner not publicly admitting the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.

The visible evidence is overwhelming.

Father Gruner is said to have privately admitted that if he spoke about the "Two Sister Lucy's" it would negatively impact his Consiliar church donations.

Attempting to hide the truth and appease the Consiliar faction in their blindness is uncharitable and damaging to Holy Mother Church.

What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?

Poche, this story goes back to 2006.
When it came out, it hit the international trad community like a bombshell.

If you go on TraditioninAction's website, you'll find several related articles about the controversy.

Two Sister Lucys

It's commonsense detective work and is intriguing to read.

Bottom line... the fake Sister Lucy represents the "diabolical confusion" Our Lady of La Salette warned us about.

Providentially, today, September 19th is Our Lady of La Salette's feastday!

Incredulous · « **Reply #29 on:** September 19, 2013, 12:32:30 AM »

Quote from: ggreg

Perhaps he does not believe in two sister Lucys.

Plenty of people don't.

Visible evidence is overwhelming to you perhaps.

To other people they both look like the same person.

ggreg,

Acknowledge, the definitive DNA evidence is not in yet.

I understand, your take on it....

Of course, plenty of people don't believe this is your cranial x-ray.

On the other hand... I do.