Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => General Discussion => Topic started by: hollingsworth on September 16, 2013, 04:55:44 PM
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I've always admired and respected Fr. Nicholas Gruner for his constant and faithful attention to the Fatima Message over the years. But in recent times, some of that respect has diminished. He declared a couple of years ago that then Pope Benedict XVI was now "on our side," i.e on the side of traditional Catholicism. I don't think that this was the case then, nor has Ratzinger ever indicated as much since.
Now we've got Pope Francis. In a recent press release (Sept 7) from the Fatima Center, Fr. Gruner declares cheerily that Pope Francis "has had his entire pontificate consecrated to Our Lady of Fatima by the bishops of Portugal." "This shows," says Fr. G. , "how seriously the Pope takes the Fatima message, as did his two predecessors, who both made pilgrimages to Fatima."
One is forced to ask, then, why he doesn't consecrate Russia by name to Mary's Immaculate Heart. Are we supposed to take comfort in Fr. Gruner's assurance in this press release that Francis "will consecrate the world to Mary in a public ceremony" on October 13? I take none. The "world" has already been consecrated by two other popes. Do we need a third consecration of the world? I think not. And making "pilgrimages to Fatima" does not automatically establish the Marion credentials of these popes. After all, even the infamous Paul VI made a "pilgrimage" to Fatima.
Why does Fr. Gruner insist on painting this pope, as well as his two immediate predecessors, as pontiffs devoted to the Message of Fatima, when the actions of these three speak much louder than the words of Fr. Gruner concerning them?
I am beginning to think that Fr. Gruner has done with Fatima what the Jews did with their "h0Ɩ0cαųst." He has turned that hoped for event into an industry. Just as the Jews have turned their Shoah into the a "h0Ɩ0cαųst industry," so, I'm afraid, in a similar manner has Fr. Gruner turned that 1917 event into the 'Fatima Industry.' I hope this is not true.
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Of course it's true.
"Fr." Gruner was installed as a pre$byter of the Novus Ordo organization. He is not a traditional Roman Catholic priest and never has been.
He has been drooling like an untrained puppy at the fake popes who have usurped the Chair since he was installed, hoping that they would make mention of Fatima so Gruner himself could get some face time on TV.
Face it... the TRUE message of Our Lady at Fatima in 1917 requires prayer, mortification of our flesh and its appetites, penance for our sins and for the conversion of sinners AND the acknowledgement that Russia's humanistic, Godless error would spread through the world if Our Lady's words were not heeded.
She has been largely ignored, even by traditional Catholics, and the punishments of the world and the chastisement of the Church have begun and will only get worse, because no one has taken their PART in that message seriously.
We've all spent so much time trying to parse the so-called "Third Secret", so much time printing and re-printing the WORDS of the message, so much time buying statuettes and parading them around and showing such outward piety.
It's all been for naught, because the ACTUAL PENANCE and true Catholic example that the faithful were supposed to set for the world hasn't happened satisfactorily enough for Heaven. Thus, sinners have NOT been converted to any great degree in decades, even the last century, and the perverts and criminals and heretics and apostates have crept into the Church while Her people dozed off and started caring more about belonging to the K of C and the Parish Picnic Committee than they cared about taking up their crosses.
Gruner has been right there all along, peddling whatever trinkets, booklets and "conferences" he can, all because it doesn't matter to him WHAT the people buy, as long as it has a "Fatima" sticker on it and it came from his "apostolate".
As far as I'm concerned, Gruner is no different than the Protestant hucksters selling "miracle hankies" on TV. They don't care whether your spiritual life works as long as your bank card does.
Kyrie eleison.
Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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Well said hollingsworth!
I speculate that Fr. Gruner is aware that the Modernist VII Popes all greatly admire one another. Therefore he may be afraid of alienating the current Pope by criticizing John XXIII, Paul VI, JPII or Benedict XVI.
I suspect that this will not make any difference at all. They're Modernists, many of them don't even believe in Resurrection (as traditionally defined before the VII revolution).
for example, in Introduction to Christianity by (then) Fr. Joseph Ratzinger (1968)
on page 349: “It now becomes clear that the real heart of faith in the resurrection does not consist at all in the idea of the restoration of bodies, to which we have reduced it in our thinking; such is the case even though this is the pictorial image used throughout the Bible.”
How can he truthfully recite the Creed?
How do you think he feels about Fatima?
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Is this the thread where members come to post calumny. It seems like it.
Father Gruner says the Traditional Latin Mass Stephen Francis.
Father Gruner may sound a bit too optimistic to think that Pope Francis will do a proper Consecration of Russia, instead of the world again on Oct. 13, 2013. But after over 30 years at this apostolate his optimism and faith in what Our Lord and Our Lady said to Sister Lucy is probably what is keeping him going.
Our Lord Himself confided to Sister Lucy at Rianjo in August of 1931: “They did not wish to heed My request! ... Like the King of France, they will repent of it, and they will do it, but it will be late. Russia will already have spread its errors in the world ...”
Our Lady promised at Fatima, “In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, which will be converted, and a period of peace will be given to mankind.”
Below are parts of a letter that Father Gruner sent out on Sept 4, 2013 just before the last conference. By the way there were one day free passes to the conference available.
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"Fatima: The Path To Peace" could be the decisive moment.
I will tell you why: a bishop from Argentina - along with three other bishops willing to speak to Pope Francis - are coming to the conference. Their presence may tip the balance in favor of the consecration.
I am sure you know that Pope Francis has announced he will consecrate the world to the Immaculate Heart of Mary on October 13, 2013, the 96th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun. So, an act of consecration will happen.
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Bishop Emeritus Antonio Baseotto, former head of the military chaplain of Argentina, is coming to Niagara Falls.
Bishop Baseotto and the Holy Father were pillars of the Church during some of the most difficult years in Argentina's history. They have the sort of camaraderie that only brothers in arm possess.
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They [the bishops that will be at the conference] must know that the laity are with them as they tell the Holy Father - Russia must be consecrated - by name - with all the bishops participating.
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These bishops may actually be the reason Our Lady has allowed us to make this great effort.
We also have, for the first time, the endorsement of our conference by a Cardinal. Renato Cardinal Martino ... has held several Vatican posts during his career and he came to our last two conferences in Rome. At the 2011 conference he took my hand, and said, "Courage".
Now, he has officially endorsed "Fatima: The Path To Peace". This is huge. We have always struggled for recognition, to get our foot in the door of the Vatican, so to speak. Now, it is as though that door has been thrown wide open.
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Our Lady has blessed you with many things. Please, bless Her Apostolate with your presence at what may be it's most important undertaking."
Yours in Jesus, Mary and Joseph,
Father Nicholas Gruner
P.S. The bishop from Argentina - along with other prelates who have the ear of Pope Francis - are coming to "Fatima: The Path To Peace". And the conference has been endorsed by Cardinal Renato Martino. We have a Heaven-sent opportunity to make the Pope's consecration of the world to the Immaculate Heart a consecration of Russia - as Our Lady wishes. Your presence, your support is vital to our success. Please, come to "Fatima: The Path To Peace". You will not regret it.
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So Father Gruner does have reasons to be optimistic. Personally I think Father Gruner's Faith in Our Lord is much stronger than most priests, bishops and cardinals. His Faith is definitely stronger than anyone that has posted in this thread so far. I love Father Gruner's optimism. He won't give up, like you guys have.
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As far as I'm concerned, Gruner is no different than the Protestant hucksters selling "miracle hankies" on TV. They don't care whether your spiritual life works as long as your bank card does.
Fr. Gruner is under much attack and is on the verge of financial collapse.
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"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.
He wants there to be much excitement about "a golly-gosh honest-to-goodness CARDINAL!!" coming to his next conference, yet he has to be satisfied that he has sent messages to Newbishops who are "willing to speak to [Bergoglio]".
Big, fat, hairy deal. So what? Gruner has been repeatedly disobedient to his Newchurch superiors over the last 30 years or more. He's been censured because of that disobedience.
His Fatima apostolate has been near "financial collapse" for most of my life; I remember reading little booklets about how dire his situation was in the 1980s when I was a young child.
It's the same ploy that the Protestants use in their fund-raising... "HURRY!! We've got our MOST IMPORTANT WORK YET to accomplish and we're OUT OF MONEY!!!"
FYI, Bergoglio CAN'T do a "proper consecration"... he's a layman. He was never even ordained as a priest, let alone as a Bishop or Pope.
Bishop Baseotto and the Holy Father were pillars of the Church during some of the most difficult years in Argentina's history.
HA! Pillars of WHAT? Allowing fαɢɢօts to adopt children and "blessing" their adoption? Pillars of kissing up to Communist leaders? Going to Jew and Mohammedan services?
His Faith is definitely stronger than anyone that has posted in this thread so far. I love Father Gruner's optimism. He won't give up, like you guys have.
Now who's offering calumny? Who in this thread has given up? I know I have. I've given up on yet another fake Newchuch TV personality/celebrity-preest who is turning Out Lady's message at Fatima into more Protestant-style self-congratulation.
Why isn't he in a parish (you know, like a PRIEST SHOULD BE), teaching people the value of fasting and mortification?
When St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross felt it was necessary to oppose or rebuke prelates who were their superiors, they didn't go off and start holding conferences and selling books. They PRAYED and FASTED and did PENANCE. Yes, they communicated their concerns, but they didn't take advantage of Americanism within the so-called church by going off on lectures with their merchandise tables in place at the back of the room.
Given up? I don't even GET a traditional Mass to go to where the priests are not diocesan phonies or SSPX sellouts to Newrome. Don't come after me about giving up. I have to live out a Catholic faith that NO ONE around me does. There are NO traditional chapels for hours, there are NO trad Catholics living in my area. Not even my family members are as in agreement with the authority of Holy Church as I am trying to be.
Giving up? Why? Because I haven't turned one apparition/private revelation into the sum and substance of my Catholic identity so I can feel secure like a Protestant, having special insider secrets?
Go back and look up nearly ALL of my posts on CI. Ever notice anything?
Oh, right... I invoke the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady at the end of nearly every one of them.
Why? Because I BELIEVE the Fatima message. I BELIEVE that Our Lady's appearance there and her words are absolutely CRITICAL to understanding the world we live in and how it can be ultimately changed.
I just don't need to be a devotee of a disobedient presider who doesn't even have a parish. He's the frontman of HIS organization. If what he was doing was truly traditional and obedient to the standards of Holy Church, then His Excellency +Williamson and others would be right up front with him.
Notice the profound silence from the traditional clergy, followed by bursts of cricket noise.
By the way, I'm in SERIOUS financial trouble, I've got three children to feed and I have serious medical issues; I don't have my conference itinerary planned out yet. I've got some Fatima items here; maybe I can sell those to you?
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"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.
He wants there to be much excitement about "a golly-gosh honest-to-goodness CARDINAL!!" coming to his next conference, yet he has to be satisfied that he has sent messages to Newbishops who are "willing to speak to [Bergoglio]".
Big, fat, hairy deal. So what? Gruner has been repeatedly disobedient to his Newchurch superiors over the last 30 years or more. He's been censured because of that disobedience.
His Fatima apostolate has been near "financial collapse" for most of my life; I remember reading little booklets about how dire his situation was in the 1980s when I was a young child.
It's the same ploy that the Protestants use in their fund-raising... "HURRY!! We've got our MOST IMPORTANT WORK YET to accomplish and we're OUT OF MONEY!!!"
FYI, Bergoglio CAN'T do a "proper consecration"... he's a layman. He was never even ordained as a priest, let alone as a Bishop or Pope.
Bishop Baseotto and the Holy Father were pillars of the Church during some of the most difficult years in Argentina's history.
HA! Pillars of WHAT? Allowing fαɢɢօts to adopt children and "blessing" their adoption? Pillars of kissing up to Communist leaders? Going to Jew and Mohammedan services?
His Faith is definitely stronger than anyone that has posted in this thread so far. I love Father Gruner's optimism. He won't give up, like you guys have.
Now who's offering calumny? Who in this thread has given up? I know I have. I've given up on yet another fake Newchuch TV personality/celebrity-preest who is turning Out Lady's message at Fatima into more Protestant-style self-congratulation.
Why isn't he in a parish (you know, like a PRIEST SHOULD BE), teaching people the value of fasting and mortification?
When St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross felt it was necessary to oppose or rebuke prelates who were their superiors, they didn't go off and start holding conferences and selling books. They PRAYED and FASTED and did PENANCE. Yes, they communicated their concerns, but they didn't take advantage of Americanism within the so-called church by going off on lectures with their merchandise tables in place at the back of the room.
Given up? I don't even GET a traditional Mass to go to where the priests are not diocesan phonies or SSPX sellouts to Newrome. Don't come after me about giving up. I have to live out a Catholic faith that NO ONE around me does. There are NO traditional chapels for hours, there are NO trad Catholics living in my area. Not even my family members are as in agreement with the authority of Holy Church as I am trying to be.
Giving up? Why? Because I haven't turned one apparition/private revelation into the sum and substance of my Catholic identity so I can feel secure like a Protestant, having special insider secrets?
Go back and look up nearly ALL of my posts on CI. Ever notice anything?
Oh, right... I invoke the Immaculate Heart of Our Lady at the end of nearly every one of them.
Why? Because I BELIEVE the Fatima message. I BELIEVE that Our Lady's appearance there and her words are absolutely CRITICAL to understanding the world we live in and how it can be ultimately changed.
I just don't need to be a devotee of a disobedient presider who doesn't even have a parish. He's the frontman of HIS organization. If what he was doing was truly traditional and obedient to the standards of Holy Church, then His Excellency +Williamson and others would be right up front with him.
Notice the profound silence from the traditional clergy, followed by bursts of cricket noise.
By the way, I'm in SERIOUS financial trouble, I've got three children to feed and I have serious medical issues; I don't have my conference itinerary planned out yet. I've got some Fatima items here; maybe I can sell those to you?
I find this a very good post. Thanks Stephen Francis and keep up the good fight!
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I feel no bitterness towards Fr. Gruner. He has kept Fatima at the forefront for many years. He has repeated the history of the Fatima over and over again, and does continually remind us how vitally important the Fatima Message is in finally bringing a protracted peace. However, one has to wonder what the consecration of Francis' "entire pontificate" by the bishops of Portugal to Our Lady of Fatima has to do with anything. If that consecration does not result in obedience to Our Lady's instructions, then what good is it? And why the bishops of Portugal? Fr. Gruner makes it appear that they were commissioned to perform this consecration by the pope himself. Really? For what purpose? What is the end game? Fr. Gruner knows better than anyone that the world has already been consecrated several times. Why would he make special note of the pope's intention to repeat that ceremony yet once again? It just does not compute in my mind.
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I feel no bitterness towards Fr. Gruner. He has kept Fatima at the forefront for many years. He has repeated the history of the Fatima over and over again, and does continually remind us how vitally important the Fatima Message is in finally bringing a protracted peace. However, one has to wonder what the consecration of Francis' "entire pontificate" by the bishops of Portugal to Our Lady of Fatima has to do with anything. If that consecration does not result in obedience to Our Lady's instructions, then what good is it? And why the bishops of Portugal? Fr. Gruner makes it appear that they were commissioned to perform this consecration by the pope himself. Really? For what purpose? What is the end game? Fr. Gruner knows better than anyone that the world has already been consecrated several times. Why would he make special note of the pope's intention to repeat that ceremony yet once again? It just does not compute in my mind.
What Fr. Gruner keeps stressing, and which I believe is correct, is that none of those consecrations were done according to Our Lady's instructions, which were that the consecration be of Russia, specifically and by name, and by the pope and all the bishops of the world simultaneously.
Of course, if there is no pope, then Fr. Gruner is wasting his time. But if Bishop Williamson is correct and we do have a pope, albeit a dreadfully poor excuse for one (my words), then Fr. Gruner is not wasting his time.
I don't think it's useful to speculate on whether or not Fr. Gruner is sincere; barring hard evidence, that's something that only God, Fr. Gruner, and perhaps a few people close to him would know.
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I don't know much about Father Gruner. I have never read his material. But I know that he was ordained in the New Rite of ordination so I consider him to be a doubtful priest. I would not attend one of his Masses for this reason even if he says the traditional Mass.
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Is this the thread where members come to post calumny. It seems like it.
Father Gruner says the Traditional Latin Mass Stephen Francis.
Father Gruner may sound a bit too optimistic to think that Pope Francis will do a proper Consecration of Russia, instead of the world again on Oct. 13, 2013. But after over 30 years at this apostolate his optimism and faith in what Our Lord and Our Lady said to Sister Lucy is probably what is keeping him going.
Fr.Gruner, although I doubt he is a true priest I will address him as Father, I believe he is sincere, but sincerely wrong. If he thinks Francis will do a proper Consecration of Russia he should wonder why Francis says things like this about Our Lady, taken from the "Novus Ordo Watch site".
on September 11, 2013, the man the world believes to be the Pope of the Catholic Church gave a "catechesis" on the Church as Mother of all Christians -- and managed to insult both the Church, who is the Immaculate Bride of Christ, and the Virgin Mary, Our Lord's Immaculate Mother:
"The Church and the Virgin Mary are both mothers. And what can be said about the Church can also be said about the Virgin, and what can be said about the Virgin can also be said about the Church", Francis begins his instruction, before concluding the first paragraph thus:
"Do we love the Church as we do our own mothers, accepting her with all her flaws? Everyone has flaws, but when these are mentioned we try to cover them up! Do we help make her more beautiful and more genuine?
Instead of drawing a beautiful analogy to the Blessed Virgin Mary to explain how the Church is likewise spotless and untainted, Jorge Bergoglio instead accuses the Bride of Christ of being sullied with "defects" or "flaws" ("difetti") and, having pointed out that what can be said about the Church can equally be said about the Virgin Mary, makes people draw the necessary conclusion that just as the Church has flaws, so does the Blessed Mother.
Blasphemy! Heresy!
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Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn, "Brothers" Michael and Peter Dimond and even "Bishop" Clarence Kelly and others can get together to do a proper Consecration of Russia to Mary's Immaculate Heart. That should work, shouldn't it? (eye roll)
A "very good post"? If that was an example of what to expect from a very good post here then maybe I've come to the wrong forum.
Could this possibly be the real issue that's biting your but?
http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/vlarchive/vl135_0812.asp
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr80/cr80pg08.asp
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/feature-articles/Feature_-_The_Errors_of_Sedevacantism.pdf
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I just about missed this one. Yeah this must be the one that's biting your but because it's written by Father Gruner himself from back in the summer 2005 issue # 80 of the Fatima Crusader. It's a good one.
"Defend YOUR Salvation"
http://www.fatimacrusader.com/cr80/cr80pg03.asp
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I am still waiting to see that supportive letter that Fr. Gruner said he received from Francis a few days after Francis was elected. The letter being sent to Fr. Gruner when Francis was Cardinal Bergoglio. I think Gruner said he had a couple of supportive letters not just one..
Even if privacy means he cannot publish them, then surely Pope Francis being so into Fatima and supportive of Father Gruner, which is what Gruner and yourself claimed those letters contained, supportive comments, not merely polite form letters thanking Fr Gruner for his large pack of Fatima literature; it should be child's play to get an audience with Pope Francis and have him regularise Father Gruner, at least, and maybe even get the consecration of Russia underway.
This after all is a humble and available Pope who cold calls people including his old car mechanic and newspaper seller. How hard can it be for Father Gruner to get an audience with him?
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We've been through this before Greg. Like I said at the other forum, either keep waiting or phone the Fatima Center yourself.
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Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn...
Watch your mouth. Father Cekada is a legitimately-ordained priest in the traditional rite. +Dolan and +Sanborn are Their Excellencies BISHOP Dolan and BISHOP Sanborn, respectively.
You might not like their views, but they aren't running around without being regularized and incardinated in a diocese like Gruner is.
Oh, and those mean, nasty articles that say that sedevacantism is wrong, how COULD you! Layman Mr. Gruner disagrees with my PERSONAL, PRIVATE opinion! Oh, no!
Funny... the MODERATOR of this forum and I happen not to agree on the recognize/resist position, which is why he and his family attend an SSPX chapel and I won't, at least not until I understand the nuances of the position better.
You don't see me making snide remarks about Matthew.
There are other people here with whom I do not agree concerning "baptism of desire/blood", etc, but I consider them Catholics and would not question their commitment to the Faith.
The fact that Gruner even exists is of no concern to me. I've never read any of his books or books about him, and his efforts or opinions or tactics or whatever mean ZERO to me as concerns Our Lady's messages at Fatima.
I am absolutely convinced that the messages at Fatima represent one of the crucial, final revelations from Heaven regarding what will happen if mankind, particularly Catholics, continue in sin and indifference.
I pray the Rosary daily. I offer prayers for the holy souls in Purgatory. I am vigilant in making every effort to catechize my children and prepare my whole family for reception into full communion with Holy Church.
Nicholas Gruner and his form-letter baloney and his
"this time, we're really going to have someone... um... LISTEN, and um, maybe even possibly tell someone to tell the Pope, and maybe we can get an audience, and, um..."
nonsense have never affected my belief in the Fatima apparitions and never will, at least not any more than any other layman would.
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"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.
I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?
Is the basis of the accusation only because the ordination was done in the post Vatican II ordination rite ?
If so, why didn't he get conditionally ordained ? He knows all the trad Bishops.
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I have a problem with Father Gruner not publicly admitting the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRksna8A1-Sc4efm_6t4tNCcOZCsXKz9Ytka6JA2EPTsn3O9um06A)
The visible evidence is overwhelming.
Father Gruner is said to have privately admitted that if he spoke about the "Two Sister Lucy's" it would negatively impact his Consiliar church donations.
Attempting to hide the truth and appease the Consiliar faction in their blindness is uncharitable and damaging to Holy Mother Church.
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Perhaps he does not believe in two sister Lucys.
Plenty of people don't.
Visible evidence is overwhelming to you perhaps.
To other people they both look like the same person.
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I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?
I had never heard it either. He is a properly and validly ordained priest as far as I am concerned. And, please, let's not make it incuмbent upon the man to believe in two Lucys. Enough already! :smile:
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"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.
I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?
Is the basis of the accusation only because the ordination was done in the post Vatican II ordination rite ?
If so, why didn't he get conditionally ordained ? He knows all the trad Bishops.
He believes he was validly ordained because he was ordained in the Italian language and he maintains that the core form of the words were not changed.
I'm not justifying or defending him here, that is just his defense as far as I know.
I would not attend his mass for the doubt of his ordination. I personally think he could do more good if he accepted the sedevacantist position, but I don't doubt that his intentions are good.
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"was ordained in the Italian language..."; strike one.
"believes that the core of the words were not changed"; strike two.
"post-Vat-II ordination installation rite"; strike three.
You know what three strikes means, don't you?
The man was installed as a presider in 1976. He is not even recognized as a regularized presider by Newchurch.
If he hasn't been conditionally re-ordained, why wouldn't the traditional clergy have done it already? Never mind why he hasn't sought it. Why wouldn't they offer?
Just as with the "two Lucys" theory, it all speaks to his ability to keep giving lectures in front of Newchurch sensationalists who really believe that going to conferences and buying trinkets is more important than mortification and holiness.
If he got validly ordained and then aligned himself with the Resistance, he'd lose all the little old ladies and conspiracy-theorist Neocons who want to donate to him.
By the way, there are NOT two Sister Lucias. There's only one, and she died in the late 1940s. The impostor that was palling around with Paul the Sick and Wojtyla and the rest is Sister Lucia like I'm Al Sharpton.
The Church doesn't need someone on its side like Gruner, trying to play both sides to the middle. It's a typical sedeplenist/R&R problem. "Those mean Cardinals! That mean old Vatican! They won't release the true Third Secret!"
Meanwhile, he goes to Newchurch parishes, takes plenty of Newchurch money for his efforts and still gets to present himself as a 'priest'.
Newchurch hasn't excommunicated him yet because he's not really naming names; he blames lots of retired and/or dead people for all the resistance he's faced.
My biggest problem with Gruner is that he wants to be seen as some paragon of traditional Catholicism within Newchurch, but he apparently doesn't even care enough about the souls of the people he lectures to; if he did, he wouldn't be possessed of an irregular status. He'd be doing what his superiors have been telling him to do for decades.
He's just kindly-looking and 'conservative' enough for the neocons and grandmas in the parish meeting halls and hotel ballrooms, but he gets to play the 'rogue agent' bit to the hilt because having mean, nasty prelates opposing HIM and HIS disobedience can be spun into "resistance to Our Lady!!! They're fighting against the Virgin of Fatima!!!"
Sorry, but His Excellence +Lefebvre, His Excellence +Williamson, Fr. DePauw and others have never been anything but EXEMPLARY Catholic clergy. None of this playing-both-sides-to-the-middle garbage.
My Internet bill is coming due... TIME IS SHORT. YOUR OPPORTUNITY TO KEEP THESE POSTS COMING IS NOW!!! I count on YOU, [subscribername], for the support I need to STAY ON CATHINFO so that these IMPORTANT MESSAGES can be read by as many people as possible!!
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Well, this Mr X.Lerma should be invited to the Rev Gruner's next Peace Conference ....
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/06-09-2013/125583-putin_obama-0/
Putin's wall Obama's fall
06.09.2013
By Xavier Lerma
Even though the US thinks they are in charge of humanity the reality is they are not. In their imaginary world the toothless media supports their spit ball shooting president. They actually think their words are supreme and final. Kerry and McCain keep dancing in a parade trying to influence a congress which is neither conservative nor moral but nevertheless war weary. The once drug addict now US leader cannot fight against Vladimir Putin who brought Russia from poverty in the 90's to a more stable economy today. Obama's buffoonery selling the war against Syria has hit a wall thanks to President Putin's firm stance and leadership.
Focusing on war instead of a trillion dollar debt, Obama's forte is to spread chaos not only in America but in the world. Like a fire bug his wake has left North Africa burning and he now supports terrorists the US once fought against. Bush once said that when Obama got into office that Barry would have to do the same and continue fighting in the Middle East. "Mr. I'll bring home the troops next summer" has broken that promise and kept his "YES WE CAN start more wars" pledge. As they say in America, "he's Bush on steroids".
Although US public opinion is against another war the Bush haters will not protest Obama's wars. I guess their feet hurt or Soros ran out of money. Code Pink went home to bake cookies or those in charge feel nothing can stop them now. Well, Putin is still in charge of the Middle East. The blood thirsty west can only grind its teeth, wail and scream, writhe in agony, spitting out lies, threats and accusations against Russia. Like Hitler and Napoleon, they will also meet their end.
Russia, who has slain its Red Dragon (Communism) long ago, is now facing Puff the Magic Dragon. Blowing smoke in his people's eyes and spreading democracy with bombs. Magic that cannot fight against the truth. Puff must face reality and will try to save face. He will blame the Republicans who stand in his way and his worshipers will pity and love him. Playing the race card once again will bring more power to his throne.
The Saudi King whom Obama bowed to and Bush kissed will try again and again. Demanding Obama attack Syria. Trying to bribe Putin or threatening Russia with terrorists. He cannot let Russia, the largest country and the number one oil and gas producer, stand in their way. They want the world coming to them for oil and they know Russia will become more powerful in the future supplying Europe, China and other major countries. The Saudis must have complete control of the Middle East now before it's too late.
Conservative Americans and those in the world are seeing Barry falling apart at the seams when he goes against Putin. They see a weak- kneed, lying, war mongering punk against a well educated, confident and successful leader. President Putin can stand alone and speak without a teleprompter or notes and argue reasonably. He can give interviews anytime without worry because he does not have to try to remember a lie or wonder what to say. He only has to gives facts which are easy to remember. His conservative economics and religious views are admirable in their eyes.
Forgotten or ignored by the west are the Christian men and women of Russia who prayed, suffered and died for today's free and united Russia. Last century they were attacked by Hell itself yet they endured and rebuilt Christ's Church. Over 58 Million were killed in Communist Russia but the Faith survived. It is one of the greatest miracles in world history. The western media prefers to shriek like spoiled brats against Putin. "Evil dictator!" they shout, while they themselves have rejected the Holy Spirit and proudly wear the seal of the Antichrist. They laugh but God is not mocked. Christ is Victorious in Russia where ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity is still a sin; blasphemy a crime; where crosses and holy images are in public view. A renewed faith in Christ our King has become our fortress. This is the wall Putin stands on and the wall that will cause Obama's fall.
Xavier Lerma
Contact Xavier Lerma at xlermanov@swissmail.org
Hyperlink to Pravda is mandatory if you republish this article.
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I am still waiting to see that supportive letter that Fr. Gruner said he received from Francis a few days after Francis was elected. The letter being sent to Fr. Gruner when Francis was Cardinal Bergoglio. I think Gruner said he had a couple of supportive letters not just one..
Even if privacy means he cannot publish them, then surely Pope Francis being so into Fatima and supportive of Father Gruner, which is what Gruner and yourself claimed those letters contained, supportive comments, not merely polite form letters thanking Fr Gruner for his large pack of Fatima literature; it should be child's play to get an audience with Pope Francis and have him regularise Father Gruner, at least, and maybe even get the consecration of Russia underway.
This after all is a humble and available Pope who cold calls people including his old car mechanic and newspaper seller. How hard can it be for Father Gruner to get an audience with him?
Mybe he could cold call Father Gruner. I wonder what he would ssay?
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I have a problem with Father Gruner not publicly admitting the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRksna8A1-Sc4efm_6t4tNCcOZCsXKz9Ytka6JA2EPTsn3O9um06A)
The visible evidence is overwhelming.
Father Gruner is said to have privately admitted that if he spoke about the "Two Sister Lucy's" it would negatively impact his Consiliar church donations.
Attempting to hide the truth and appease the Consiliar faction in their blindness is uncharitable and damaging to Holy Mother Church.
What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?
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"Fr." Gruner can "say" the TLM all he wants; he was not ordained to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass for the living and the dead. He is a presider dressing as a priest.
I had never heard this accusation that Father Gruner was not validly ordained?
Is the basis of the accusation only because the ordination was done in the post Vatican II ordination rite ?
If so, why didn't he get conditionally ordained ? He knows all the trad Bishops.
He believes he was validly ordained because he was ordained in the Italian language and he maintains that the core form of the words were not changed.
I'm not justifying or defending him here, that is just his defense as far as I know.
I would not attend his mass for the doubt of his ordination. I personally think he could do more good if he accepted the sedevacantist position, but I don't doubt that his intentions are good.
I've not heard that he was ordained in the Italian language, but I have heard him speak of his ordination and he was, indeed, ordained in the New Rite. He found traditional Catholics support his apostolate more than Novus Ordo Catholics. I'm not exactly sure when he started to say the traditional Mass, but I suspect it was around the same time.
I was at a conference in South Bend, Indiana several years ago where he spoke. I was quite amazed that, after giving his talk, he went into a tirade against sedevacantism, which had nothing to do with his talk and wasn't a topic of the conference. The tirade lasted about 10 minutes. At the time, I barely knew anything about the sedevacantist thesis and was very confused as he rambled and made absolutely no sense.
He frequently declares that he has all kinds of support for his Fatima message, but that support seems fictitious, for I have never seen any action to back up that supposed support.
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Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn...
Watch your mouth. Father Cekada is a legitimately-ordained priest in the traditional rite. +Dolan and +Sanborn are Their Excellencies BISHOP Dolan and BISHOP Sanborn, respectively.
So was Martin Luther.
I figured that's what was biting your but.
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Yeah maybe "Father" Anthony Cekada, "Father" Daniel Dolan, "Father" Donald Sanborn...
Watch your mouth. Father Cekada is a legitimately-ordained priest in the traditional rite. +Dolan and +Sanborn are Their Excellencies BISHOP Dolan and BISHOP Sanborn, respectively.
So was Martin Luther.
I figured that's what was biting your but.
Frs Cekada, Dolan and Sanborn were among the earliest ordinands of Archbishop Lefebvre! What happens to those who have defected from the SSPX to the Novus Ordo or the Ecclesia Dei groups - do they too become "Fathers"?
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I have a problem with Father Gruner not publicly admitting the "Two Sister Lucys" conspiracy.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRksna8A1-Sc4efm_6t4tNCcOZCsXKz9Ytka6JA2EPTsn3O9um06A)
The visible evidence is overwhelming.
Father Gruner is said to have privately admitted that if he spoke about the "Two Sister Lucy's" it would negatively impact his Consiliar church donations.
Attempting to hide the truth and appease the Consiliar faction in their blindness is uncharitable and damaging to Holy Mother Church.
What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?
Poche, this story goes back to 2006.
When it came out, it hit the international trad community like a bombshell.
If you go on TraditioninAction's website, you'll find several related articles about the controversy.
Two Sister Lucys (http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/g12htArt2_TwoSisterLucys.htm)
It's commonsense detective work and is intriguing to read.
Bottom line... the fake Sister Lucy represents the "diabolical confusion" Our Lady of La Salette warned us about.
Providentially, today, September 19th is Our Lady of La Salette's feastday!
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Perhaps he does not believe in two sister Lucys.
Plenty of people don't.
Visible evidence is overwhelming to you perhaps.
To other people they both look like the same person.
ggreg,
Acknowledge, the definitive DNA evidence is not in yet.
I understand, your take on it....
Of course, plenty of people don't believe this is your cranial x-ray.
(http://www.hahahaimontheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/x-ray_8.jpg)
On the other hand... I do.
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What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?
It's a bunch of tripe from "Tradition In Action".
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What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?
It's a bunch of tripe from "Tradition In Action".
Tradition In Action... Bovis pancreata ? :thinking:
Mikemac,
For the Sister Lucy of 1917 to be the same Sister Lucy of 2000, would mean she had to have extensive facial cosmetic surgery and all of her front teeth replaced.
It makes perfect sense that the real Sister Lucy would be suppressed after her interview with Father Fuentes in 1958, where she was ringing the alarm bell about clerical negligence concerning Our Lady's Fatima warning.
There is a story (rumor) that Sister Lucy was αssαssιnαtҽd by a European lodge (Northern Star). TIA also found her name in the convent cemetery records, but the death date was apparently incorrect and the convent never came forth to explain their record keeping. Obviously this convent is under close watch by the enemies of our Lord.
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What is this about the two Lucys conspiracy?
It's a bunch of tripe from "Tradition In Action".
Tripe? Well I know a homicide detective that looked into the pictures and said unequivocally, that there was NO WAY that those two people in the pictures are the same people. This man has been a homicide detective for 20+ years, so I'd believe his claim over people that naysay it.
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I believe there were two Lucys and that the first one either died or was murdered. The photos of the two Lucys look like completely different people.
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Perhaps he does not believe in two sister Lucys.
Plenty of people don't.
Visible evidence is overwhelming to you perhaps.
To other people they both look like the same person.
ggreg,
Acknowledge, the definitive DNA evidence is not in yet.
I understand, your take on it....
Of course, plenty of people don't believe this is your cranial x-ray.
(http://www.hahahaimontheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/x-ray_8.jpg)
On the other hand... I do.
I notice that you failed to observe it is labelled as Homer J. Simpson on the bottom. So, as I suggested, you are selective about what you choose to ignore.
Or 'Credulous'.
To me they look like the same person. But two selective pictures prove nothing. I look very different than I did 20 years ago. Family members saw her, visited her, in that time and spoke to her. They would have discussed old memories etc, stuff that it would be very difficult for the imposter to know. The fakery would have to be extraordinary, to convince them or those visitors and family members would have to be in on the scam.
I don't believe that is likely. I think it is much more likely that Sister Lucia simply folded and did what she was told and to some degree or other went along with newChurch out of a sense of obedience.
Your clownish responses just shows how shallow and stupid your theory is.
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Neither Fr. Gruner or Fr. Cramer believe the "Two Sister Lucy" theory. I think they must know a little bit more about Fatima than you, or Marian Horvat.
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ggreg:
Neither Fr. Gruner or Fr. Cramer believe the "Two Sister Lucy" theory. I think they must know a little bit more about Fatima than you, or Marian Horvat.
For purposes of this topic, what does it matter what Frs. Gruner and Kramer believe about the "Two Lucies" theory? This thread was never about that. But you and a few others are turning it into a sub-topic. This happened all the time on IA, and it hurt that forum, IMO.
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Gruner and Kramer (sp?) are both Novus Ordo presiders who are perfectly happy recognizing apostates like Wojtyla, Ratzinger and Bergoglio as "popes".
Of course they're going to go with the Vatican's party line regarding Sister Lucia.
Gruner doesn't even have enough clout to do anything beyond HOPE that he's going to get an audience with Frank the Humble.
He isn't getting behind any Newchurch smokescreens to uncover anything. People knew that the remaining part of the Fatima message had been suppressed 40 years ago or more. That's no big SECRET (pun totally intended).
Again, as I've said previously, belief in the messages of Fatima and the veracity of Our Lady's appearance there does not require one to recognize the Newchurch layman Gruner as anything more than a layman with a particularly hardcore devotion. I know and have known lots of people as passionate as Gruner about a lot of things.
Belief in Fatima DOES NOT EQUAL "Fatimism" and it DOES NOT EQUAL GRUNERISM.
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I'm beginning to like the sound of SF's samurai sword, slashing through Consiliar icons. :smile:
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ggreg,
I see you discovered my secret meaning.
It is true, I equate your posts with the profound sayings of Homer Simpson.
(http://andrewthomasauthor.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/homer-simpson-brain.jpg)
Data-less, emotion-filled utterances.
<<Holly>>My apologies for continuing to go off topic.
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I believe Fr. Gruner to be a force for good in keeping the Fatima Message alive among Catholics. My attitude towards him is not that of Stephen Francis. However, it does appear that Fr. G. tries to ingratiate himself too much to the Novus Ordo establishment. That probably has to do with the fact, as has been said many times, that much of his support comes from people in the Novus Ordo. But the NO church is basically an enemy of Fatima and the Fatima Message. Fr. Gruner tries to keep too plates spinning in the air at once, each of which is inimical to the other, each plate spinning in an opposite direction from the other. It doesn't work too well, IMO
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I believe Fr. Gruner to be a force for good in keeping the Fatima Message alive among Catholics. My attitude towards him is not that of Stephen Francis. However, it does appear that Fr. G. tries to ingratiate himself too much to the Novus Ordo establishment. That probably has to do with the fact, as has been said many times, that much of his support comes from people in the Novus Ordo. But the NO church is basically an enemy of Fatima and the Fatima Message. Fr. Gruner tries to keep too plates spinning in the air at once, each of which is inimical to the other, each plate spinning in an opposite direction from the other. It doesn't work too well, IMO
You make a good point.
Father Gruner had the Fatima apostolate in the 1970s and kept the issue alive.
However, there must have been some infiltration in his organization, like all other Catholic groups.
Father Gruner has recently said we should be consoled about the papacy of Francis because he is likely to be the pope who does the Fatima Consecration.
This statement comes off like one more conservative Catholic fantasy... :thinking:
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Incredulous:
Father Gruner has recently said we should be consoled about the papacy of Francis because he is likely to be the pope who does the Fatima Consecration.
what reasons does Fr. Gruner give for this sanguine outlook on the curren pope? Most traditional Catholcs look upon Francis as "a flake." Bp. Williamson calls him a "goofball." I'll tell you one thing, if Pope Francis does consecrate Russia, a lot of us will have some apologizing to do. Because he has always put the best face on post-Conciliar popes that he possibly could. If it pays off this time, then we were wrong in thinking that any modernist pope could ever consecrate Russia; and he was right in believing that one of them would.
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As soon as Humble Frank George Bergoglio becomes a practicing Catholic, he can enter the seminary so that he can be ordained a priest if he so chooses.
Once he is a Catholic, he can be elected Pope like any other single Catholic man conceivably could.
If he ever gets elected Pope, I will watch with great anticipation to see him accomplish the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in union with all the Bishops of the world simultaneously.
Of course, unless the Pope, when one is validly elected, decides to consecrate a bunch of new Bishops, there won't be that many to consecrate Russia with.
Anyhow, as soon as there's a Pope, whether it be George after his conversion or another, I'll be sure not to miss a second of the coverage surrounding the new Papacy, because that consecration will be a pivotal act by the Pope.
Meanwhile, George Bergoglio can't consecrate a thing; he's a layman.
Kyrie eleison.
Canonized Popes, true shepherds of Christ's flock, pray for us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
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As soon as Humble Frank George Bergoglio becomes a practicing Catholic, he can enter the seminary so that he can be ordained a priest if he so chooses.
Once he is a Catholic, he can be elected Pope like any other single Catholic man conceivably could.
If he ever gets elected Pope, I will watch with great anticipation to see him accomplish the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary in union with all the Bishops of the world simultaneously.
Of course, unless the Pope, when one is validly elected, decides to consecrate a bunch of new Bishops, there won't be that many to consecrate Russia with.
Anyhow, as soon as there's a Pope, whether it be George after his conversion or another, I'll be sure not to miss a second of the coverage surrounding the new Papacy, because that consecration will be a pivotal act by the Pope.
Meanwhile, George Bergoglio can't consecrate a thing; he's a layman.
Kyrie eleison.
Canonized Popes, true shepherds of Christ's flock, pray for us.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, triumph soon!
Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Hai... yah!
(http://scm-l3.technorati.com/10/06/30/14357/sword-cut.jpg)
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Incredulous: Father Gruner has recently said we should be consoled about the papacy of Francis because he is likely to be the pope who does the Fatima Consecration.
what reasons does Fr. Gruner give for this sanguine outlook on the curren pope? Most traditional Catholcs look upon Francis as "a flake." Bp. Williamson calls him a "goofball." I'll tell you one thing, if Pope Francis does consecrate Russia, a lot of us will have some apologizing to do. Because he has always put the best face on post-Conciliar popes that he possibly could. If it pays off this time, then we were wrong in thinking that any modernist pope could ever consecrate Russia; and he was right in believing that one of them would.
I've been following the Fatima Center for quite a few years now and I have to admit that it would take Divine Intervention for Pope Francis to do a proper Consecration of Russia. Well actually that's what Father Gruner is counting on too, Divine Intervention. Yesterday in an e-mail he asked us to add fasting to our prayers for a proper Consecration.
Fr. Gruner believes that Pope Francis will do a proper Consecration because the stigmatized man Antonio Ruffini told Fr. Paul Kramer that neither JPII nor his successor would do the Consecration, but the one after that would. Pope Pius XII authorized the blessing of a chapel on the spot where Ruffini received the stigmata on the Via Appia and Fr. Tomaselli wrote a booklet about him. If you do a search for 'Antonio Ruffini' there are a few web pages about him.
Stephen Francis if Pope Francis does do a proper Consecration of Russia and Russia converts and we see a period of peace will you return to the Catholic Faith?
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As soon as Bergoglio becomes a Catholic, he can be elected Pope.
We'll see what happens next.
Return to the Faith? The faith where Ratzinger and Bergoglio are tolerating fαɢɢօts and child-rapists?
I'd sooner become a Freemason and a Jew than belong to a faith where Christ-denying Jews are granted the benefit of so-called validity in their abominable twisting of Holy Scripture.
Hus was burned at the stake for a heretic. So was Knox. They hsd it easy compared to what awaits these apostates if they don't do penance for their sins.
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Yeah well we all need to do penance for our sins eh Stephen.
John Knox wasn't burnt at the stake for heresy, although he should have been.
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I figured that's what was biting your but.
I wince each time I come across this phrase. I'm certain you do not mean to offend, but there are women who read and participate on this forum.
It's another crude modernist phrase that we should avoid, as we do all modernism.
Lecture concluded, carry on :geezer:
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I just saw another press release from the Fatima Center in which Fr. Gruner suggests that these popes who haven't consecrated Russia haven't had the "grace" to do; that we need to fast and pray more so that the act may be accomplished. Does Father throw it all back into the laps of us layfolk? We are the ones, apparently, who have not prayed hard enough or fasted long enough. IMO, these are gratuitous comments that needn't be made by Fr. Gruner.
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I just saw another press release from the Fatima Center in which Fr. Gruner suggests that these popes who haven't consecrated Russia haven't had the "grace" to do; that we need to fast and pray more so that the act may be accomplished. Does Father throw it all back into the laps of us layfolk? We are the ones, apparently, who have not prayed hard enough or fasted long enough. IMO, these are gratuitous comments that needn't be made by Fr. Gruner.
It is getting old now. Perhaps we need a Fatima grace Crusade.......didn't someone else try that recently?
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Incredulous: Father Gruner has recently said we should be consoled about the papacy of Francis because he is likely to be the pope who does the Fatima Consecration.
what reasons does Fr. Gruner give for this sanguine outlook on the curren pope? Most traditional Catholcs look upon Francis as "a flake." Bp. Williamson calls him a "goofball." I'll tell you one thing, if Pope Francis does consecrate Russia, a lot of us will have some apologizing to do. Because he has always put the best face on post-Conciliar popes that he possibly could. If it pays off this time, then we were wrong in thinking that any modernist pope could ever consecrate Russia; and he was right in believing that one of them would.
I've been following the Fatima Center for quite a few years now and I have to admit that it would take Divine Intervention for Pope Francis to do a proper Consecration of Russia. Well actually that's what Father Gruner is counting on too, Divine Intervention. Yesterday in an e-mail he asked us to add fasting to our prayers for a proper Consecration.
Fr. Gruner believes that Pope Francis will do a proper Consecration because the stigmatized man Antonio Ruffini told Fr. Paul Kramer that neither JPII nor his successor would do the Consecration, but the one after that would. Pope Pius XII authorized the blessing of a chapel on the spot where Ruffini received the stigmata on the Via Appia and Fr. Tomaselli wrote a booklet about him. If you do a search for 'Antonio Ruffini' there are a few web pages about him.
Stephen Francis if Pope Francis does do a proper Consecration of Russia and Russia converts and we see a period of peace will you return to the Catholic Faith?
Gee, MikeMac, I don't know what to think about this one?.
So, after Francis tears down what is left of hierarchal Church he converts ?
It seems so unlikely, but then again, God's ways are not our ways.
As far as the sequence of Popes go, I'm not buying that Francis is the real Petrus Romanus.
I believe St. Malachy only counted the Popes who were to come from valid conclaves.
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I just saw another press release from the Fatima Center in which Fr. Gruner suggests that these popes who haven't consecrated Russia haven't had the "grace" to do; that we need to fast and pray more so that the act may be accomplished. Does Father throw it all back into the laps of us layfolk? We are the ones, apparently, who have not prayed hard enough or fasted long enough. IMO, these are gratuitous comments that needn't be made by Fr. Gruner.
I suppose he has to keep "fasting & praying" at the fore-front.
All the Marian apparitions indicate our collective sins are crying to Heaven for justice.
We can't even begin to imagine how extensive and bad they are.
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Perhaps this is not the correct place to add this, but because I stumbled on this myself, it may help others to understand:
New Catholic Encyclopedia (2003): “Mortification. The deliberate restraint that one places on natural impulses in order to make them increasingly subject to sanctification through obedience to reason illumined by faith. Jesus Christ required such renunciation of anyone who wished to come after Him (Lk 9.29). And so mortification, or what St. Paul calls the crucifixion of the flesh with its vices and concupiscences (Gal. 5.24), has become a distinguishing mark of those who are Christ’s.