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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 41013 times)

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Offline Texana

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Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #255 on: February 28, 2024, 09:35:21 AM »
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  • Yes, the Canons are infallible because they deal with morals, their purpose is to condemn something as a sin (i.e let him be anathema), making it immoral i.e. sinful to do. 
    Dear Stubborn,
    Do these Canons deal with  the Faith at all?

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #256 on: February 28, 2024, 09:41:44 AM »
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  • I have no idea how this thread has gone in for 17 pages.  It’s absolutely clear to those who don’t have some agenda that a pope can change the Canon of the Mass.
    Dear Ladislaus,
    This thread is proving that it is not absolutely clear that a pope can change the Canon. Agendas may go either way.


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #257 on: February 28, 2024, 09:46:11 AM »
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  • He can change the aspects which were added by the Church; he cannot change the parts which are Apostolic (i.e. came directly from Christ).
    Dear Pax Vobis,

    Except for the words introduced by Pope Gregory the Great, which of the words of the Canon are surely not authored by Our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #258 on: February 28, 2024, 11:11:06 AM »
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  • Dear Stubborn,
    Do these Canons deal with  the Faith at all?
    Certainly. I don't see how it could be otherwise.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #259 on: February 28, 2024, 03:57:50 PM »
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  • Quote
    Except for the words introduced by Pope Gregory the Great, which of the words of the Canon are surely not authored by Our Lord Jesus Christ?
    I don't know.  I don't think anyone on this thread knows.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #260 on: February 28, 2024, 06:30:42 PM »
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  • Dear Ladislaus,
    This thread is proving that it is not absolutely clear that a pope can change the Canon. Agendas may go either way.

    It's proved nothing of the sort, except in your own mind ... since you had already decided that before examining the issue.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #261 on: March 17, 2024, 09:00:39 PM »
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  • Dear Cath-Info peeps,

    First, I would like to express my gratitude for excellent quotes and sources provided by JDFaber. 

       The question of the interpretation of Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent is pivotal for proving the possibility or impossibility for the rite of the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is the Canon of the Mass, to be altered; in our case by Pope John XXIII. 

        In the study of the docuмents presented by JDFaber, I have focused mainly on the Catholic approach and only referenced the Protestant opinion for an obvious reason; that as much as the opponents of the papacy would not like for a pope to be an arbiter in the matter of the rites of the Sacraments at all, they would rather him be in charge of them, for at least in the future some kind of hope for the change would be possible, rather than have no possibility whatsoever and therefore the Catholic Church would stay the same until the Second Coming.

       As I explained earlier, Fr Suarez and his followers from the school of Salamanca focused on Sacramentals rather than the rites of the Sacraments. Fr. Suarez in "Disputatio XV" and the Salamanticentes in "Disputatio X" both use the title "De Sacramentalibus" for their chapters concerning the matter. Martinus Keminicius does not distinguish between the Sacramentals and the rites of the Sacraments, but his explanations about the minds of the Fathers of the Council are worth studying.

        The best approach to the topic we are focused on can be found in the "Manual of Dogmatic Theology" of Rev. Msgr. Joseph Pohl: "There are two kinds of sacramentals: 1) such as accompany the administration of the Sacraments (e.g. the exorcisms pronounced in Baptism, the use of salt, the anointing of the forehead), and 2) such as may be used independently of the Sacraments and have a quasi matter and form of their own (e.g. the different ecclesiastical blessings). The former are called sacramental ceremonies, the latter sacramentals in the strict sense of the term." ( The Pohle-Preuss Manual of Dogmatic Theology, Loreto Publications 2014. vol 8. p. 111)
     "Sacramentals in the strict sense are rites resembling those of the sacraments, but independent of them, instituted by the Church for the supernatural advantage of the faithful." ( ibid. p.113) "They resemble the Sacraments in this that they ordinarily consist of the matter and form and produce a spiritual effect on the recipient. ( ibid. p.114)

        So when Fr Suarez and his school mention the Sacramentals in their respective "Disputationes XV and X", that is what they are referring to.

        Rev. Msgr. Pohle states further: "That the Church has the power to institute sacramental ceremonies or rites, it is clear from the following declaration of the Tridentine Council: 'If anyone saith that received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed by every pastor of the churches into other new ones, let him be anathema.'" (ibid. p. 111)

       Our thesis is that once instituted by the Church, the ceremonial rites used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments are sealed, codified, and not to be changed by whosoever pastor of the churches, any pope included. The Sacramentals, however, are subject to the authority of the Church, and the papacy in particular in agreement with Fr. Suarez and his school, and the Protestants. These men were living closer to the time of the Council and were highly skilled in speaking Latin.

      Together with Rev. Msgr. Pohle, we have a small advantage, however, in the fact that the definition of infallibility has been officially pronounced since the time of Trent.
     It is important, because if we hold that Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent is merely a disciplinary matter ( since  allegedly it excludes the pope, by letting him to hold in disdain or omit at pleasure or change into new ones the rites of the Sacraments) and not a dogmatic statement (which would bind the pope), then we arrive at the conclusion that Pope John XXIII had the freedom to add the name of St. Joseph to the Canon and change the rubrics of the Mass.

        If, however, we want to keep the notion that the Canons regarding the Sacraments in general and Canon XIII of the Seventh Session in particular are in fact dogmatic, then we have to apply the rules of the Church to our discussion.
    Right after giving the previously quoted definition of Canon XIII, Rev. Msgr. Pohle states: "a) In proof of this dogma the Holy Synod adduces the example of St. Paul..." ( ibid. p. 112)
    He, like many of us, considers the Canons of Trent to be dogmatic.

    The question is: Are there any dogmatic pronouncements of the Church that are not infallible? Is there an Article of Faith that does not enjoy infallibility and can be corrected in the future?

    Does Canon XIII fulfill the requirements of infallibility?

    Question 1: What authority issued the Canon?
    Answer 1: The Ecuмenical Council.
    Q 2: Has it been approved by a reigning pope?
    A 2: Pope Paul III approved and Pope Pius IV ratified it.
    Q 3: Does the Canon concern the matters of faith and/or morals?
    A 3: The text refers to the rites of the Sacraments, which contain elements of divinely revealed truth and doctrine of the Church; consequently, it is of Faith. Additionally, the language used in the Canon appears in the Credo of the Council of Trent: "I also receive and admit the accepted and approved rites of the Catholic Church in the solemn administration of all the aforesaid sacraments." (Dz 994. Henry Denzinger, The Sources of the Catholic Dogma. Herder Book Co. 1957. p.303)
    Q 4: Does it bind the whole Church?
    A 4: Yes. It is a general statement applied to the churches of the East and West. It refers to the ministers and pastors of the whole church.
    Q 5: How does it bind the whole Church?
    A 5: There is no exclusion mentioned and the penalty applied is anathema.
    Q 6: Is the Canon in question an infallible statement?
    A 6: "...that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is, when carrying out the duty of the pastor and teacher of all Christians in accordance with his supreme apostolic authority he explains a doctrine of faith and morals to be held by the Universal Church, through the divine assistance promised him in blessed Peter, operates with that infallibility with which the divine Redeemer wished that His church be instructed in defining doctrine of faith and morals; and so such definitions of the Roman Pontiff from himself, but not from the consensus of the Church, are unalterable." (Dz 1840 ibid. p.457)
    Q 7: Are the successors of Pope Pius IV bound by Canon XIII?
    A 7: Yes. A pope is a pastor of a church; he is a bishop of the diocese of Rome. The very definition of infallibility which is a dogma of the Church, refers to a pope as a pastor and teacher of all Christians.
    From the perspective of the Canon Law: "There are two moral persons that exist by divine institution. They are the Catholic Church, established on earth by Jesus Christ, true God, and the Apostolic See, established by the same divine authority (cf.c.100,p1). The distinction between these two moral persons is a real, inadequate distinction; one is a part of the other. The Apostolic See in this connection, does not include the departments of the Roman Curia." ( Bouscaren S.J, Ellis S.J, Canon Law, A Text and Commentary. The Bruce Publishing Co. 1958 ,p.86)

    If a dogmatic teaching binds the Universal Church, it binds also a pope, thanks to the inadequate distinction: a pope is part of the Church.

    For safety's sake, here is the text of Canon XIII in its original language in the section on Sacraments in genere (NB: not in the section on Sacramentals): "Si quis dixerit,receptos et approbatos Ecclesiae catholicae ritus, in solemni Sacramentorum administratione adhiberi consuetos, out contemni, out sine peccato a ministris pro libito omitti, out in novos alios per quemcunque ecclesiarum pastorem mutari posse, anathema sit." ( Dz 737 Henricus Denzinger Enchiridion Symbolorum et Definitionum. Editio IX, Herder. Friburg. 1900 p.197)
    The proper translation of quemcunque ecclesiarum pastorem is whosoever pastor of the churches. That means a pope is included too.

    Conclusion: If Canon XIII of the Seventh Session of Trent is a dogmatic statement and not just a disciplinary rule with a serious penalty, then it should fulfill the requirements of infallibility. If it does fulfill the aforementioned requirements, one of which is binding the Universal Church, it also binds a pope. By codification of the rites of the Sacraments, the Council of Trent intended to preserve them and protect them from changes.

     I hope that by now, "everybody" does not agree that a pope can change the Canon of the Mass. It is time to study the effects of an anathema.

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #262 on: March 18, 2024, 03:04:50 PM »
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  • So when later popes allowed the mention of the king in the Communicantes, as Dom Guéranger tells us, they were anathema?


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #263 on: March 18, 2024, 05:57:31 PM »
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  • So when later popes allowed the mention of the king in the Communicantes, as Dom Guéranger tells us, they were anathema?
    Dear jdfaber,
    Where are the kings now? It's time to study the effects of an anathema.

    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #264 on: March 18, 2024, 06:18:14 PM »
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  • So when later popes allowed the mention of the king in the Communicantes, as Dom Guéranger tells us, they were anathema?
    Dear jdfaber,
    On the second thought: Where are the popes now? It's time to study the effects of an anathema.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #265 on: March 18, 2024, 06:35:03 PM »
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  • Dear jdfaber,
    On the second thought: Where are the popes now? It's time to study the effects of an anathema.

    You should answer his question first.  Answering a question with a counter question is dishonest.  His question was whether the popes who permitted additions to the Communicantes fell under anathema.  Yes or no?


    Offline Texana

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #266 on: March 18, 2024, 07:22:58 PM »
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  • You should answer his question first.  Answering a question with a counter question is dishonest.  His question was whether the popes who permitted additions to the Communicantes fell under anathema.  Yes or no?
    Dear Ladislaus,
    I refer you to my January 10, 2024 thread.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #267 on: March 18, 2024, 08:07:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    Dear Ladislaus,
    I refer you to my January 10, 2024 thread.
    :facepalm:

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #268 on: March 18, 2024, 08:33:37 PM »
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  •   As I explained earlier, Fr Suarez and his followers from the school of Salamanca focused on Sacramentals rather than the rites of the Sacraments. Fr. Suarez in "Disputatio XV" and the Salamanticentes in "Disputatio X" both use the title "De Sacramentalibus" for their chapters concerning the matter. Martinus Keminicius does not distinguish between the Sacramentals and the rites of the Sacraments, but his explanations about the minds of the Fathers of the Council are worth studying.

        The best approach to the topic we are focused on can be found in the "Manual of Dogmatic Theology" of Rev. Msgr. Joseph Pohl: "There are two kinds of sacramentals: 1) such as accompany the administration of the Sacraments (e.g. the exorcisms pronounced in Baptism, the use of salt, the anointing of the forehead), and 2) such as may be used independently of the Sacraments and have a quasi matter and form of their own (e.g. the different ecclesiastical blessings). The former are called sacramental ceremonies, the latter sacramentals in the strict sense of the term." ( The Pohle-Preuss Manual of Dogmatic Theology, Loreto Publications 2014. vol 8. p. 111)
     "Sacramentals in the strict sense are rites resembling those of the sacraments, but independent of them, instituted by the Church for the supernatural advantage of the faithful." ( ibid. p.113) "They resemble the Sacraments in this that they ordinarily consist of the matter and form and produce a spiritual effect on the recipient. ( ibid. p.114)

        So when Fr Suarez and his school mention the Sacramentals in their respective "Disputationes XV and X", that is what they are referring to.
    But this isn't what Suarez and the Salmanticenses are referring to. Suarez himself says, "Now in the present matter, we do not use the word ‘ceremony’ in this broadest meaning, but we adapt it to the sacramental ceremony, and by Theologians it is usually simply called a ‘sacramental’. By this word we mean certain religious actions or circuмstances, which the Church observes in the administration of the sacraments, or the oblation of the sacrifice, and which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice, such as, in Baptism for example, the Unction, the Exorcism, and other things of this sort" (read here). The Salmanticenses likewise clearly state that they are talking about, to quote you, "the ceremonial rites used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments."

    Offline jdfaber

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    Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
    « Reply #269 on: March 18, 2024, 08:40:59 PM »
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  • By the way, Pius XII literally changed the administraion of the sacrament of Holy Orders: http://theradtrad.blogspot.com/2014/10/pius-xii-episcopal-consecration.html