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Poll

If Pope Pius XII had put St. Joseph in the Canon, what would you have done?

I would accept the change and attend St. Joseph Masses
19 (61.3%)
I would not accept the change and would attend only dissident non-St. Joseph Masses
1 (3.2%)
I would accept the change and attend either St. Joseph Masses or non-St. Joseph Masses
11 (35.5%)

Total Members Voted: 31

Voting closed: February 03, 2024, 11:15:00 AM

Author Topic: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass  (Read 85354 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #265 on: March 18, 2024, 06:35:03 PM »
Dear jdfaber,
On the second thought: Where are the popes now? It's time to study the effects of an anathema.

You should answer his question first.  Answering a question with a counter question is dishonest.  His question was whether the popes who permitted additions to the Communicantes fell under anathema.  Yes or no?

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #266 on: March 18, 2024, 07:22:58 PM »
You should answer his question first.  Answering a question with a counter question is dishonest.  His question was whether the popes who permitted additions to the Communicantes fell under anathema.  Yes or no?
Dear Ladislaus,
I refer you to my January 10, 2024 thread.


Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #267 on: March 18, 2024, 08:07:31 PM »

Quote
Dear Ladislaus,
I refer you to my January 10, 2024 thread.
:facepalm:

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #268 on: March 18, 2024, 08:33:37 PM »
  As I explained earlier, Fr Suarez and his followers from the school of Salamanca focused on Sacramentals rather than the rites of the Sacraments. Fr. Suarez in "Disputatio XV" and the Salamanticentes in "Disputatio X" both use the title "De Sacramentalibus" for their chapters concerning the matter. Martinus Keminicius does not distinguish between the Sacramentals and the rites of the Sacraments, but his explanations about the minds of the Fathers of the Council are worth studying.

    The best approach to the topic we are focused on can be found in the "Manual of Dogmatic Theology" of Rev. Msgr. Joseph Pohl: "There are two kinds of sacramentals: 1) such as accompany the administration of the Sacraments (e.g. the exorcisms pronounced in Baptism, the use of salt, the anointing of the forehead), and 2) such as may be used independently of the Sacraments and have a quasi matter and form of their own (e.g. the different ecclesiastical blessings). The former are called sacramental ceremonies, the latter sacramentals in the strict sense of the term." ( The Pohle-Preuss Manual of Dogmatic Theology, Loreto Publications 2014. vol 8. p. 111)
 "Sacramentals in the strict sense are rites resembling those of the sacraments, but independent of them, instituted by the Church for the supernatural advantage of the faithful." ( ibid. p.113) "They resemble the Sacraments in this that they ordinarily consist of the matter and form and produce a spiritual effect on the recipient. ( ibid. p.114)

    So when Fr Suarez and his school mention the Sacramentals in their respective "Disputationes XV and X", that is what they are referring to.
But this isn't what Suarez and the Salmanticenses are referring to. Suarez himself says, "Now in the present matter, we do not use the word ‘ceremony’ in this broadest meaning, but we adapt it to the sacramental ceremony, and by Theologians it is usually simply called a ‘sacramental’. By this word we mean certain religious actions or circuмstances, which the Church observes in the administration of the sacraments, or the oblation of the sacrifice, and which are apart from those which are of the essence, or substance of the sacrifice, such as, in Baptism for example, the Unction, the Exorcism, and other things of this sort" (read here). The Salmanticenses likewise clearly state that they are talking about, to quote you, "the ceremonial rites used in the solemn administration of the Sacraments."

Re: Pius XII and St. Joseph in the Canon of the Mass
« Reply #269 on: March 18, 2024, 08:40:59 PM »
By the way, Pius XII literally changed the administraion of the sacrament of Holy Orders: http://theradtrad.blogspot.com/2014/10/pius-xii-episcopal-consecration.html